Talk:Klotski

klocki mean blocks not wooden blocks
i am from poland and i will not admit this translation, blocks can be wooden, plastic or else. see "klocki lego" in google — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.184.146.82 (talk) 17:46, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Origin?
All my search attempts for "Taquin" return French results. I am hoping someone who has more knowledge of these old games will come to the rescue, at which time we can remove the verify tag. :) --Kooky (talk) 22:51, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I looked at the French pages and they show the Fifteen puzzle, a.k.a. N-puzzle. There is indeed some resemblance between Klotski and Fifteen--in both puzzles you move pieces within an enclosure, but that's about it. --Bartosz 16:10, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Klotski and Fifteen puzzle are different things. They only have one thing in common -- sliding blocks. The main target for fifteen puzzle (jeu du taquin in French) is to slide 15 square blocks in a 4x4 square boundary so that they will be rearranged. OTOH, the aim of Klotski is to move one block out of a trapped boundary, enclosed by other blocks. This Klotski page already shows a standard example: move the largest block until it touches the blue block at the bottom. If people here don't mind I'll remove the verify tag. AbelCheung 01:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Please wait, I'd like to dig deeper before conclusion. There is a page about L'âne rouge, which is french name of Klotski. It also mentions having Thai origin. That page is written around late 2003, so its content shouldn't be affected by wikipedia. AbelCheung 03:28, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I would not be surprised if this game has far-Eastern origins, or if this is one of those things that sort of just happened in different places at once. I have no objection to the removal of the verify tag (you seem to have covered the bases well). Great job, AbelCheung! :) --Kooky (talk) 18:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Author?
Does anyone know who wrote the original version of Klotski for Windows? --Bartosz 16:01, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably it could be found if anybody still has the Windows 3.1 game pack packaging available. AbelCheung 21:58, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I have a version from 1991 and the about box says:

"Klotski

Minneapolis - Warsaw

Copyright ZH Computer, 1991 " ---EEPROM Eagle 19:20, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, EEPROM. You prompted me to get a copy and do some binary analysis on it (don't ask me how :-) ). Some interesting facts:
 * ZH Computer is founded by Zbigniew Karwowski. See this page: "Mr. Karwowski moves from Poland, to Minneapolis". The irrelevant line "Minneapolis - Warsaw" most likely indicates this fact.
 * Within the binary reveals several names:
 * Maurycy R.K.
 * Valdi Karwowski
 * Thaddy Karwowski
 * They are most likely developers of this game, or at least involved in development work. AbelCheung (talk) 23:15, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Correcting myself -- they are the level creators. AbelCheung (talk) 21:54, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Verifying history info
I need some help verifying the misc info and the people involved:


 * When does L'âne rouge appear in France? Is it 1946 according to puzzleworld.org? How is J.H. Fleming related to it? (copyright? patent? introduce to people? write document about it?) This site seems to tell something, but I don't really understand its content.
 * Is it related to Thai's Khun Chang Khun Phaen? (given that Thai has been a colony of France, this is not 100% impossible) This page contains a picture of Thai variation.

Of course, I'll be happy if anybody can help confirming or denying other info in this page. babelfish is an utterly crappy tool to help me understand french pages. :-< AbelCheung 19:43, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Windows Copy Available Anywhere??
The original copy I had several years (and several Windows upgrades) back was by far my favorite puzzle program ever. The final level was huge, a sort of square within a square, with a five-by-five block to move out of the inner square and along the outer square back to the top. I can't seem to find a copy of the original game anywhere. It was definitely a Windows game (not DOS), and all the versions of Klotski I've found so far aren't even close to what I remember of the original (which, if I recall, didn't have fancy trick bricks, either). If anyone could possibly put me in touch with the original program, or some new version that actually has the original levels (including the huge final level), preferably with Windows operation, I would be eternally grateful. (Also, if anyone has a screenshot of the final level, or anything of the sort, showing where the bricks are, that might be almost as good, because I'd be able to program my own by this point.) Kilyle 09:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Rules
The rules section doesn't specify what a move is. Sliding one block horizontally or vertically counts as one move, and dragging one of the smaller squares around the corner also counts as one move, not two. I think this needs to be clarified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.20.242.233 (talk) 19:09, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe there is need to clarify. Btw, the general concensus (most papers and articles) is to count continuous move of one piece as a single move. -- Abel Cheung 221.126.155.212 (talk) 07:11, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

tag for cleanup
The article seems to be about a whole category of sliding block puzzles characterized by variable-shaped pieces and a task to move a piece to a particular location. But the "solution" section, which states baldly that 81 moves is best possible, is clearly referring to one specific puzzle (which?). Hence the need for cleanup. —Blotwell 00:14, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It's fairly clear that the original puzzle is meant. In these cases, it is better to use the   tag on the specific text rather than tag the whole article.  Sp in ni  ng  Spark  23:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

name
The name of this article seems to refer to a specific computer game. I do not recall that I have seen refer to this type of sliding block puzzles as klotski elsewhere. When I look at the history of this artilce, it looks like it started with a computer game called klotski, and the scope got gradually expanded. Teun Spaans (talk) 19:21, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, therefore a new section is added to explain the use of Klotski as name of these sliding puzzles. AbelCheung (talk) 00:55, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, I don't see that section. It still looks like this article is the first place where this name is used for this type of puzzle. For example, the youtube video referenced is dated later then this article. It is not up to wikipedians to invent a name, or to push a name. Teun Spaans (talk) 07:29, 10 August 2012 (UTC)


 * As already mentioned in article, the first traceable use of the name occurs at 1991, and it is right now the only name more commonly referred to, at least in internet. If absolute political correctness is insisted, then probably this article shall be merged into Sliding puzzle -- but then many other articles shall be merged into Sliding puzzle as well, making it uber huge and difficult to read. Right now there's no consensus; well, actually not much discussion has been initiated at all. 124.244.6.133 (talk) 23:58, 10 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry, above comment is from me without login actually. AbelCheung (talk) 00:01, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Talk in article
For what it's worth, an editor added the superscript "(Citation was deleted by DreamGuy in a 2009 edit which marked it as spam)" to an unsourced statement earlier this month; I've cut it as inappropriate WP:TALKINARTICLE and moved it here. The citation in question - http://www.g4g4.com/MyCD5/SOURCES/SOURCE2.DOC - appears to be a dead link now. --McGeddon (talk) 15:27, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Nope, not that one. It's http://www2r.biglobe.ne.jp/~tascal/download/pocketpc/daughter.htm (in Japanese). Some commenter there briefly described the history of the puzzle in Japan, and then DreamGuy decided it is spam page without bothering to understand what the content is about. The g4g4.com link was an appendix of a published book which was probably treated as WP:RS by DreamGuy again. AbelCheung (talk) 03:40, 8 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Hey, you can actually see in the edit comment what my real objection was. Those links failed WP:RS, which means they can't be used. Period. The fact that they were also spammy was an aside. You can't just link to something and declare that that proves it's true. To be in an encyclopedia it needs to have a source that meets Wikipedia's criteria for reliability, not your own personal ones. DreamGuy (talk) 00:30, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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How old is "traditional" in China?
We have the first figure caption: The traditional Chinese wooden game Huarong Dao. And then in the History section: First account of occurrence of Klotski in China is [...] in 1938. I think what's traditional about the game in the picture with that caption is the contextualisation in relation to a historical novel, as explained in the "Block name variation" section: Huarong Dao is the Chinese variation, based on a fictitious story in the historical novel. It seems the novel in question was written in the 14th century (and takes place in the 3rd century), but if the game is no older than 1938, I don't think it should be called "traditional" in the caption.--Nø (talk) 20:20, 19 February 2017 (UTC)


 * I have seen some original research suggesting this traditional thing is a deliberate misconception spread throughout Chinese media. A certain Community Party member has been keeping an ongoing effort of suggesting Klotski as ancient toy of Chinese origin. He has been writing books, magazine articles and participating in TV shows since 80's asserting the claim, with widespread success. The population has since then adopted the baseless claim as common sense.
 * However what I stated above is no more than an original research. So if it is considered disturbing, perhaps it's fine to mark it as disputable. AbelCheung (talk) 12:34, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Number of moves
This is not to suggest a specific change - that would require a source that I have not. But, for the record, there are MANY sensible ways of counting moves -- at least these six: That is, so to speak: (one square; multiple squares in one direction; multiple squares in multiple directions) * (one piece only; one piece and whatever it pushes along).
 * 1) One move = Moving one piece one square, horizontally or vertically into an empty area
 * 2) One move = Moving a piece one square, horizontally or vertically, allowing it in the process to push other pieces along
 * 3) One move = Moving one piece one or more squares, either horizontally or vertically but not changing direction, into an empty area
 * 4) One move = Moving a piece one or more squares, either horizontally or vertically but not changing direction, allowing it in the process to push other pieces along
 * 5) One move = Moving one piece one or more squares, horizontally or vertically or changing direction in transit, into an empty area
 * 6) One move = Moving a piece one or more squares, horizontally or vertically or changing direction in transit, allowing it in the process to push other pieces along

The optimal numbers of moves probably varies between each of these six cases, and the optimal solutions may also differ more than trivially.--Nø (talk) 12:12, 29 May 2018 (UTC)