Talk:Knights of Columbus/Archive 4

Sectarian?
Should this organization be described as "sectarian" because it restricts membership to Roman Catholics? Irvine22 (talk) 16:16, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I am surprised that your many blocks have failed to show you the error of your ways, I believe it is time to go for a full topic ban. O Fenian (talk) 18:01, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No. It is a Roman Catholic lay organization. "Sectarian" (and all its connotations) is not properly used in this situation. umrguy  42  18:48, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * So, can non-Catholics join? Irvine22 (talk) 04:13, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Members must be Catholic. One of the requirements for admittance is that the member be "a practical Catholic in communion with the Holy See." SeanAhern (talk) 02:07, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The ideological underpinnings of attitudes and behaviors labeled as sectarian are extraordinarily varied. Members of a religious or political group may believe that their own salvation, or the success of their particular objectives, requires aggressively seeking converts from other groups; adherents of a given faction may believe that for the achievement of their own political or religious project their internal opponents must be purged. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarianism   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.234.132.134 (talk) 22:01, 15 December 2011 (UTC)


 * So it's sectarian then.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.234.132.134 (talk) 21:59, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * You would need to provide reliable secondary sources documenting the beliefs you claim Knights hold. I suspect you will have much trouble finding any. Elizium23 (talk) 22:35, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

'if' that's in response to my post - the source was wikipedia ...... rgds

College Council
From official Knights of Columbus publications it has been proven that the Notre Dame Council is the first college council. Three citations are provided. To those that are changing it to other places, please stop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjbohnert (talk • contribs) 18:01, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

While ND is undoubtedly the oldest college chapter today, it depends on whether you count inactive chapters as being existent in their period of inactivity. Georgetown outdates ND, but was inactive for about 30 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.57.208.63 (talk) 04:35, 10 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Sounds like "longest active" and "eldest" chapter situations. With precision in nomenclature, both have some claim to "fame" as it were. Student7 (talk) 12:35, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Integration
The Knights of St. Peter Claver were founded because KoC didn't have Black participation. We should add this to the Integration section. I'm looking for a source, but if someone has one go ahead. Lionel (talk) 21:04, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Charitable giving
I just trimmed this section way back, because I thought too much weight was being put on individual donations, rather than to the order's charitable work as a whole. As such, I removed information about Haiti, Katrina, and university donations, but left information about United in Charity.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:49, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Can some of what you removed be summarized instead? (At work, and don't have time to take a full look at it myself right now.) E.g., the Knights have given to various relief efforts, such as 9/11, Katrina and Haiti (with suitable cites)? umrguy  42  20:51, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't have a problem with that in general, but it seems like huge numbers of organizations would have donated in these cases, so I'm not sure it's noteworthy enough to mention. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 22:09, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that what the Knights are doing in Haiti in particular is remarkable and unique. Yes, lots of organizations donated money, and that's great, so did the Knights, but they are also donating prostethic limbs to every child in Haiti who suffered an amputation as a result of the earthquake. In my opinion that is significant and noteworthy, and i would like to include it on this page. Matthew stjohn (talk) 00:57, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Typographical errors
In the "Similar organizations" section:

Original Text: In the Prilippines, the Kngiht of Columbus ladies auxiliary is also known as Daughters of Mary Immaculate (http://dmiinternational.org/about/Index.html) with a youth arm dubbed as Ssquirettes of Mary. The Ssquirettes of Mary can be considered as the counterpart of the Knights of Columbus' youth arm, the Columbian Squires.

Corrected: In the Philippines, the Knight of Columbus ladies' auxiliary is also known as Daughters of Mary Immaculate (http://dmiinternational.org/about/Index.html) with a youth arm dubbed as Squirettes of Mary. The Squirettes of Mary can be considered the counterpart of the Knights of Columbus' youth arm, the Columbian Squires.

Criticisms ?
How come the article does not address criticism or controversy concerning the KOC ? The fact Carl Anderson's salary exceeds 1 million dollars might be a great place to start. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BAFRIEND (talk • contribs) 01:34, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Sure, provide sources and we'll get started! Elizium23 (talk) 01:46, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

i'd like to add that the article should cross-link to the national organization for marriage page. it details how they gave in excess of a million dollars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Organization_for_Marriage#Funding — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:C:9B02:48B7:48B2:FD6F:7061:BADB (talk) 05:30, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Cristero cover controversy
The following contribution of mine was just removed, with the justification that the incident was not covered in reliable sources:
 * The Knights have been criticized for a hyperbolic historical comparison in the context of Catholic opposition to the federal contraception mandate in 2011 and 2012. The cover of the May 2012 issue of its monthly magazine Columbia showed a Cristero fighter and the contents made the connection explicit without acknowledging the difference in severity between the two historical episodes or disavowing the implicit endorsement of violent opposition. "Rifle with Crucifix," U.S. Catholic blog

The reference I gave was an article posted by the Online Editor of U.S. Catholic magazine and written by Steve Schneck, director of Catholic University’s Institute for Policy Research & Catholic Studies, an recognized authority on the Catholic perspective on public policy. My contention is that this post is itself a reliable source. The piece of work itself makes accurate claims (and actually shows great respect for the Knights in the second-last paragraph). The writer of the piece is an authority on the relevant issues who frequently appears in the media. The publisher is also reputable.

In addition to the reference I gave, this episode has also been discussed in a number of other reliable sources, some of which I list here: This are all associated with left-leaning outlets, but isn't that where you would expect to find such criticism? And this comes in the context of broader questions in the media about a possible partisan bias in the Knights' recent activities. So I don't think the reliable sources charge holds up and I am reverting the removal. I think it may be more helpful to discuss this in terms of recentism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hugetim (talk • contribs) 21:30, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Widely cited WaPo blog post
 * America Magazine blog post
 * A different U.S. Catholic blog post
 * National Catholic Reporter blog post by the Editor at Large
 * I'm still concerned that these are all blogs, though they're associated with otherwise-reliable sources. Now, if we get a news story that the Secret Service is investigating them because one of the outcomes of the Cristero War was the assassination of the President-Elect, that would be reliable.-- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 22:58, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The blog posts themselves are sufficient evidence that the criticism has been made. (To cite an example I am familiar with, blog posts serve as references for criticisms that have been retained on the William Anthony Donohue page. I added those references a year and a half ago and they have remained through 75 edits since.) The question in my mind is whether these criticisms are notable enough to be included in the article or whether including this at all gives them undue weight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hugetim (talk • contribs) 00:07, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Blogs such as these may be acceptable as reliable, secondary sources under the provisions of WP:NEWSBLOG. I see no reason to discount them just because they are called blogs. The US Catholic blog is definitely an opinion piece, so it should be couched in terms of "Steve Schneck says..." Elizium23 (talk) 05:31, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Blogs like the one cited are sometimes acceptable. Here it is not news reporting but opinion. The edit appears to be an instance of recentism and is arguably POV pushing. There are good reasons to remove it. Not every minor kerfuffle needs to find its way into the encyclopedia. The fact that it is sourced to a blog is all the more reason why such recent "news", trivia is not proper encyclopedic material. I'm going to remove it. Mamalujo (talk) 18:23, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Just want to say for the record that I accept that there is no consensus on adding this minor controversy re the Cristero cover, and do not support the revert by the IP. Hugetim (talk) 01:53, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that the weight of this issue doesn't warrant it remaining in the article.Marauder40 (talk) 12:37, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Weight necessary for inclusion has not been established. Fails WP:DUE. Appears we have consensus to exclude. – Lionel (talk) 07:10, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Description of John Kerry
I agree with Tom Harrison's version. Here's what the referenced source actually says: "Kerry, a Catholic, has been criticized for political positions that conflict with church teaching on issues such as abortion." I would like to propose discussion here before further edits. Whatever "practicing Catholic" and "ardent dissenter" mean, they aren't supported by the source given. Hugetim (talk) 22:55, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that adding "practicing" is an unnecessary and loaded qualifier, that isn't in the source.Marauder40 (talk) 12:21, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Nature of secrecy
This was removed, apparently because a good source could not be found:
 * All the Order's ceremonials and business meetings are restricted to members, though all other events are open to the public. A promise not to reveal any details of the ceremonials except to an equally qualified Knight is required to ensure their impact and meaning for new members; an additional clause subordinates the promise to that Knight's civil and religious duties.

However, this is important information (if true), as this is one of the most common questions people have about the Knights. Can anyone find a source? -Hugetim (talk) 16:22, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * (ec), now I have to re-type everything, grrrr. The first sentence of what you said was removed has since been placed back in the article with sourcing (just not in the lead).  As for the portions talking about secrecy I cannot find a RS.  Yes the information is true.  I seem to remember it being mentioned in the ceremony but you will not find a RS for the ceremony itself since it is "guarded".  It is also mentioned at meetings when there are people that are known to be 1st or 2nd degree in attendance, but honestly the secrecy only applies to the ceremonies itself so it doesn't come up a lot.  I can find places on the net that it is mentioned (i.e. individual council pages) but none of them hold up to RS standards.  See GA review comments above for more details. Marauder40 (talk) 16:33, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I have been told this in person by a KofC field agent (even though I am not a Knight). I just don't understand why it wouldn't be published somewhere in a prominent place, given the (maybe only fringe) controversies about this. -Hugetim (talk) 18:15, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I am just a "standard" member, never had a leadership position or anything like that, so I can't officially answer the why. Maybe it is and we just haven't found it in normal online documents. Maybe it is similar to having a security clearance.  Officially if you know something that is classified you aren't even allowed to say "I can't tell you because it is classified" because you are admitting you know something classified.  A Knight during the ceremonies promises not to reveal any aspects of the ceremony, except if compelled to under certain situations (unlike Masons that don't have an exception clause.) I don't have the exact phrasing since I am not a member of a ceremony team and even if I gave it to you, it wouldn't be a RS.  But an example of a compelling reason would be say some crime was committed during a ceremony, a Knight could validly report the crime and be compelled without going back on his promise to give details about what happened. Also unlike other "secret" fraternities, the KofC promise is written in a way that doesn't violate Catholic ideals on promises/vows. Marauder40 (talk) 18:26, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Here is another question regarding secrecy: Why is this article within "WikiProject_Secret_Societies"? The order claims it is not a secret society, but do others agree? Does an organization closing the ceremonies and business meetings to non-members qualify it as a secret society, or is more needed? If it is a secret society, the article should have a section or something about it being a secret society. If it is not a secret society, then the article should have something to justify the inclusion of the article in the project. SlowJog (talk) 02:53, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I have removed it, as it is unsourced and inappropriate. Elizium23 (talk) 03:49, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Sub-headings
Could somebody please organize this page with some sub-headings. It has 20 headingas but only 3 sub-hedings which seems a little disorganized to me. >> Jesus Loves You! M.P.Schneider,LC (parlemus • feci) 17:11, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

College Council
I have again reverted a entry about a council being the first public college council. I have done this because this section constantly has people claiming that so and so college council was the first something or other. Usually the thing they insert is just local fokelore being passed down. Also having monitoring this page for a long time we constantly have people doing factual vandalism where they just insert their own college name with no proof whatsoever. This section has been trimmed lots of times in the history of this article. If it is the first, the cite should be real easy to find.Marauder40 (talk) 20:00, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Split the article
This article is getting to be a bit long. What do people think about Splitting it into some daughter articles? I think moving the history and political activities articles would be a good place to start, leaving brief synopsis here, of course. Any thoughts? --Briancua (talk) 22:05, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

PR
Has this article simply been drafted as a pro-Knights public relations exercise? Is anyone else concerned at the "aren't they great" tone of the whole thing? A bit more objectivity would be nice to add some credibility.Contaldo80 (talk) 10:35, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * This article has gone through a GA review where independent people review it for balance, POV, etc. It passed that review.  It also hasn't been that long since it went through the GA review. After the GA review it also went through a peer review.  The article includes several criticisms of the Order. You need to be more specific about your issues.Marauder40 (talk) 13:27, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll have a closer look and bring forward my concerns. It's all very upbeat isn't it. You don't think it all looks a bit too glossy and one-sided?Contaldo80 (talk) 11:23, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I have removed the OR and POV items you just added. The sentence "(the the former predominantly anti-gay initiatives, and the latter initiatives such as soup kitchens)" Is totally original research and/or synth.  Just the portion that says "anti-gay initiatives" is totally reflecting a particular POV.  As being discussed on the other page.  The NCR article fails RS since the quote isn't found in original source document.  The other stuff will also probably be removed soon for the lack of a reliable source.Marauder40 (talk) 12:36, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

My changes
I just made a few changes, but forgot to put in an edit summary. The rational for the biggest of these, cutting a sentence or two, is that the sources cited did not support the claims. The others were just a few grammatical changes made for flow and clarity. Apologies. --Briancua (talk) 18:54, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Persecution by the KKK
The only citation for some of this entry was written by a Knight of Columbus (Kauffman 1982). I would consider that a kind of POV. It certainly wasn't written by a neutral party. Therefore I would think it needs to be removed or at least noted in that section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.96.249.124 (talk) 21:09, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I've added a couple more sources that I hope address your concerns. --BrianCUA (talk) 21:47, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Sources don't have to be neutral. In fact, none of them are. Elizium23 (talk) 21:49, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * LOL of course the KKK persecuted Catholics. Are people this ignorant of history? Brian is a tendentious editor but he's right on this. Steeletrap (talk) 17:41, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Compliance and Ethics Program Award
Under awards, the Knights are currently the only organization of their kind to have been recognized for their compliance and ethics efforts. http://www.kofc.org/en/news/releases/kofc-2016-most-ethical-company.html Just a thought. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.218.141.124 (talk) 19:15, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

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Good source
Lots of useful information here: https://www.ncronline.org/news/people/knights-columbus-financial-forms-show-wealth-influence

-- John Broughton (♫♫) 05:10, 23 May 2017 (UTC)