Talk:Knin/Archive 1

Vlach
I removed the "(Serbs)" after Vlach for what I think are obvious reasons - until relatively recently the term Vlach and several related terms denoted all the cattle-raising populations in the Dinaric mountains, regardless of religion (and later ethnicity). After the Turkish wars the term was apparently limited to Orthodox Vlachs in the north. In Dalmatia, all the "hinterlanders" regardless of ethno-confessional status were called Vlachs until the downfall of Venetian Republic or later, and even today this name is used in the pejorative sense for "people from the hills" in coastal Dalmatian cities and towns. --Elephantus 20:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

You're right, I know a Serb Splićanka who always refers to her daughter's (Croat) mother-in-law as a "vlajna". :-) --estavisti 19:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

wow, 20 000 refuges were there and i was 10 and remember the war so please don't argue against something you have no knowledge about.

False information
I want to say that this sentense: "After taking over Knin, Serbs expelled all Croats from the so called Krajina, and slaughtered those who were left behind." is false. Serbs and Croats lived in Knin together for over 200 years, and in Yugoslav wars, how you called them, Croats expelled Serbs because they wanted to make Croatia country where only Croats live. I was one of the Serbs in Knin and I was expelled from my own house and I came here in Belgrade. Well, than I had only 5 years but I knew what was hapening around me so please can you change that information...

Thanks, --Wladimir 16:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, see, some of us weren't five years old when it happened, and everything that happened is well documented already. Please don't erase the history 1989-1995 or misrepresent what happened in 1995. --Joy &#91;shallot] 20:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Znaš šta, ona izreka "Pobednik piše istoriju" je tačna, a ti si očiti dokaz toga. Ja ne razumem zašto ti je tj. vama teško da to priznate... Priznaj, znam da istina boli i nemoj ti da menjaš istoriju... --Wladimir 10:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Please use English on English Wikipedia talk pages, so that others can understand us as well.
 * You shouldn't be the one to invoke the concept of victor's justice because by removing mention of what happened in 1991 you side with the victor of that period of the war.
 * In any case, this page is hardly the place to talk about general events. If someone can provide a coherent description of what happened *in Knin* during the war (and not in Kijevo or other places), that should be in this article. Everything else belongs to general articles about what happened in Krajina during the war.
 * --Joy &#91;shallot] 15:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't have time arguing with you. Sorry about writening Serbian on English wikipedia, I won't do that anymore... Wladimir 17:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * If you don't have time to explain your wrong edits, then how come you have time to make them in the first place? --Joy &#91;shallot] 18:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Let me explicate my sarcasm a bit more.
 * Wladimir, you have reverted the article to your text seven times now over a period of three days. Your version is wholly incorrect because 1) you removed valid content 2) the Croats (notice generalization) did not "[want] to make Croatia land where only Croats live" 3) the Operation Storm, the link to which you also removed, was not a "massacre" 4) there is no actual proof that 200,000 Serbian people became refugees, those are estimates 5) there weren't 200,000 people in Knin or in its municipality, so this is offtopic 6) saying "a lot" of them died is misleading (esp. coupled with the removal of the link to the Storm article) 7) the last sentence about Croatia not wanting to "recognize that they attacked Knin in political goals" is nonsensical (the military operation Storm was obviously an endeavour that fulfilled a political goal - to reinstate Croatian government control over all of its territory). And to put the cherry on top, you have also vandalised this talk page once by censoring this discussion, and doubled the content of the article in one of your edits, too.
 * In conclusion, should you continue to ignore the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia (and common sense), you will get banned from editing. --Joy &#91;shallot] 16:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * There, that does it, I've now reported him. --Joy &#91;shallot] 17:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Given how our newbie Wladimir just somehow manages to make the fourth revert outside the 24 hour period escaping, thus, the limitation covered by the 3RR I cannot help thinking that the retarded sock puppet master user:Purger a.k.a. user:Medule is at work here. 83.131.74.187 20:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't necessarily think so, but if you suspect there's sockpuppetry involved, please see Suspected sock puppets. --Joy &#91;shallot] 16:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Please, let's try and be NPOV...I mean in 1991 'Croatia' a country that had never existed in a real sense, only by changing ancient history declared 'independence' from a federal country. At the same time it 1)removed the rights of minority Serbs 2) engaged in acts of ethnic terror 3)resurrected the flag that Croatians had used under their Nazi supporting government that commited holocaust on non-Croatians. In response the minority-Serbs said that they could not be part of independent Croatia...so?

The Croat population of some 43,000 left voluntarily in this period, under the encouragement of their own national media which was promising massive military operations in the region. However, over 1000 remained undisturbed.

The Serb regugee column of 1995 was at least 150,000 by all international reckonings. The remaining population of Serbs was entirely destroyed as was all Serb property. This occurred.

I am not Serbian. I stumbled into Knin on the day of Thanksgiving this year. It was a 5 day celebration of hatred and violence. 5 day. Filmed by the national media. Statues of soldiers with guns aloft stood in the main square. Many men wore militia uniforms. The militia headquarters was next to the Orthodox church (chained and bolted) the houses around it stood empty. All down the street hung Croat flags, heavy armoured vehicles rolled down the streets, nationalist grafiti was on every wall, pictures of tanks were ubiquitous.

Now. come on. This page is NPOV. By the OSCE's reckoning hardly any Serbs have remained and the previous population was almost entirely Serb.

DEAL WITH IT, Both sides did screwed up crap. But it has to be dealt with. The expulsion of the native population of Krajina was and is a war crime which must be remedied. The population of Knin is temporary as if Croatia ever wants to join the EU they must vacate the properties they occcupy.

194.112.59.212 01:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The "celebration" of a war crime that was Oluja/Storm is something that was used as a rallying point for HDZ and their supporters. The vast majority of Knin inhabitants took no part in it and anyone who was here can testify to the bussed in masses who controlled the town for less than 3 hours and then left it a ghost town as residents emerged to witness what turned out to be a disappointing concert. The weather on the day was justice to those who suffered on all sides with thunder, lightning, high winds and rain keeping the glorification of 1995 as brief as possible. It appeared that the gods took a neutral stance on the day. Hobelar, 6.3.07

Hey Wladimir, you said: "...house and I came here in Belgrade. Well, than I had only 5 years but..." First of all, you didn't "come in Belgrade", because that would mean that you had orgasm in Belgrade. You "came TO Belgrade". Second, you didn't "have only 5 years", but you "were 5 years old". And third, you are a Serb who left Knin in 1995, and I see that you have your own point of view, but there are Croats who were forced to leave Knin in 1991. And they have their point of view as well. This is Wikipedia, an encyclopedia. Let us try to be objective and neutral. Let people who know about these things talk and edit these articles.

Operation Storm liberated Croatia
Croatia celebrates a military operation that ended the war in their homeland, with support from the United States and CIA intelligence. If the Serbs did not declare a seperate state within the country and forced out the Croatian population in the region, the operation never would have been needed.


 * i usualy don't even bother to write on the topics like this one, but i must say that is pretty much a somebodys' POV wether the croatian forces have "liberated" knin and were the local serbs "separatists", because they weren't the ones trying to abbandon the country they've lived in at the time. right? -- P rim E vi L 20:04, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

POV
What is wrong with me saying that the Serbs of Knin were ethnically cleansed and that Bosnian Croats were settled in the town? --estavisti 07:52, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Because it wasn't ethnic cleansing. Srebrenica, Rwanda, Cambodia, that kind of stuff is ethnic cleansing. The only way the operation would have been ethnic cleansing was if it was for the sole purpose of killing/purging the area of its Serbian inhabitants. But the point of the operation was to free the Croatian territory under occupation after 4 years of failed negotiations, with the Croats in the area being forced to flee during the development of RSK. If lets say there was a large ethnic group living in one area, and a war began against another and the other side wanted push out that group from the land just so they can purify it, then the term "cleansing" might be used. But in this case, Operation Storm was used to stop the Serbian aggression in Croatia and free the territory. If there are any other concerns on this subject, I will try my best to answer them.

Jesuislafete

Sorry, proper signature--Jesuislafete 05:39, 22 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Pure nonsense. Whenever a Serb/Croat is tortured or killed or whenever Serbo-Croat property is damaged, destroyed or stolen on one line, that's ethnic cleansing.


 * Interpreting things like that you won't get very far from Franjo Tudjman or Vojislav Seselj. --PaxEquilibrium 21:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * ethnic cleansing: the elimination of an unwanted ethnic group or groups from a society, as by genocide or forced emigration. The problem with many people here is that they throw the word ethnic cleansing around without knowing it's true meaning. There wasn't a genocide, and the Croats did not force a migration, the Serb leaders did (who told them to leave for crying out loud.)


 * And stop talking nonsense. Anyone that compares Franjo Tudman to that criminal Seselj I cannot take seriously. And don't you dare tell me what to interpret--I know what my uncle and cousins did for Croatia in Oluja. And am very proud of it. --Jesuislafete 22:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Just two things. Anyone trying to make a difference between what Serbs did in Kosovo and in Bosnia as one thing, and Croats to Serbs in Krajina and non-Croats in parts of Bosnia as another, is pussyfooting, just kidding themselves with "technicality". People don't flee because they are welcome to stay somewhere. All over the world where people have fled there have been premature calls from their own clerics, advising them that the future is not safe; in Krajina, it may have been enough to persuade some Serbs to leave, but not in their thousands as witnessed. To say that everyone left at their own will without a drop of blood is pathetic and you can scour every website and find countless references to atrocities caused by Croatian authorities against the Krajina Serbs. And another thing, thousands of Serbs left Krajina, what happened next? That is to those who remained. People were killed and others were forced out. Don't make me break my fingers adding two million references. Evlekis 22:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You can cry all you want, but Croatians will still celebrate the 5 of August as a great victory over Serb agression. I suppose you conveniently forget that President Tudman told the Serbian civilians not to flee, to stay in their homes, that Croatia would respect their rights. But as they always have, they chose to listen to their useless leaders, Martic, Babic, et al who were the first to run away. The "Krajina" army didn't even try to fight. (and don't even tell me that the all would have been killed if they stayed--imagine an army killing 150,000 people, ha.) They were all deluded into thinking that the "ustase fasisti" were coming (I know that is what they called the Croats) thanks to the Serbian propaganda machines who portrayed all Croats as ustase, and caused a mass panic. The Croats did not force them to leave--everyone knows the Serbs got on their tractors towards Bosnia way before the Croatian army entered Knin. The Serbs only have themselves to blame for what befell them. And I have no idea what you are talking about in the end, and frankly, I don't care, I cannot expect you to be happy at a Croatian victory. (And don't use isolated atrocities to justify your claims--it's a war and there are always atrocities, and the people that killed innocent civilians deserve to be punished. But that should not take away focus from the skillful operation, which did in 4 days what the international community failed to do in 4 years: return Croatian land to Croatia.) And if you intend on replying back (though I beg you not to, I have no more to say to you), do so on my page, for this is off topic. --Jesuislafete 02:30, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you are the sucker of the Croatian machine. August 5 can forever be your celebration; people do NOT FLEE when they are welcome to remain; and Tudjman's so-called "vote of assurance" meant as much as when Milosevic publicly urged Albanians to stay in their homes, for no one would harm them (1998-99). And did not the Greater Albanian architects not encourage Kosovars to flee? Look Jesuislafete, when clerics tell their followers to leave: that does not mean that their followers all take the same road at the same time and travel at the same speed like you saw with Kosovar Albanians AND Krajina Serbs: that happens my friend, when it is calculated and controlled, particularly by someone in a threaterning position. If i want to flee I'll leave tonight, maybe 2am tomorrow, perhaps next Sunday, I don't have to go when Ante and Ivan decide to go! I don't even need to follow Ante and Ivan, I may wish to go another way. And another thing, what happened to the Serbs who stayed? Those stupid enough to believe Tudjman? Those who Croatian intelligence knew to support or fund the Krajina Serbs? Did it never come to your attention about the civilians harmed and killed and the houses burnt? Have you never seen any of the footage of Croatian atrocity which is lurking all over the net despite US/Croatian attempts to stop it? I suppose that those informed as you are probably think that Ante Gotovina is currently in the Hague to receive his Nobel Peace prize. Evlekis 08:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * And in four days, that was quite a few "isolated incidents", when Serbs ethnicly cleansed, we can say that this too was a mere collection of "isolated incidents". Evlekis 08:06, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

The sight of the Croatian flag on Knin fortress is a beautiful sight indeed. --Jesuislafete 21:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

What's the point of this discussion
It seems that if you don't hold down a certain line you must be anti-Croatian, which is very odd, so I guess, according to jesuislafete newspapers, commentators, our citizens must all hate the idea of Croatianism when they tel the truth or speak about problems we deal with day to day. Knin is Knin, it has it's problems that are the product of self interested groups who care less about the progres of the town, and the day to day life of it's citizens than their own bank balance and political standing. A great idea would be for those who grasp one side or other of some notional argument to try make a living here, it's tough and very very perspective changing. hobelar, 07.04.07 Here should talked about Knin, and not about Serbs and Croats. Both of those nations are now living in Knin and that is what is most important at the moment. Also, both nations should be mentioned (without national prefixes and passions) in Knin's history, because both of them created it. So as Turks, Venetian and Austrians who created the biggest history monument in those parts of Croatia, the Knin fortress where I spend my childhood. And at the end, there is no big difference between Croats and Serbs individually, because they acted pretty much the same,...before the war, during the war and after the war. And don't search for truth and written arguments in Croatian or Serbian books, because there want be truth as long as it can be used by both Croatian and Serbian politicians, a that will be in next 40-50 years, maybe.

So please, get focus on Knin and his beauty, and leave our children to interpret what had happened...

Hereis the place where you can continue your discussion...

--kliker 00:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

SIMPLY READ THIS PAGE... this information is very well known. http://www.srpska-mreza.com/History/pre-wwOne/Krajina-Serbs.html
 * I don't mean to dispute the facts on the page but Srpska Mreža is in the end of the day a pan-Serbian site, I know that it gives sources, all verifiable but the thing is that you can find many sites published by Croatian nationalists which will not only give the Croat angle on Knin and the Krajina, but also deeper Croatian aspirations such as the right to all of Bosnia, much of Montenegro and present-day Serbia, not to mention Slovenia. I don't think anybody disputed the right of the Serbs to be in Knin, the question from the Croatian angle was originally: should these people be called Serbs?, and if so, why not accept that Bunjevs and Janjevs are Croats? It is a long winded argument with points from all parties involved. Evlekis 08:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC) Евлекис


 * "One third of Communist Designed Croatia - is Serbian land." Thank you Evlekis, I had no idea the second sentence on this "factual" site will already have as you might call it, greater Serbian aspirations on Croatian land. And of course everything else on the page sounds very factual,  "In 1991, Croats resurrect their Nazi state", "Muslims of Bosnia try to resurrect a part of Turkish Empire." I wonder what "factual" sources they use to back this all up. --Jesuislafete 21:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I fear one of us is a little confused. Precisely when am I supposed to have written these statements? I was discussing something totally different. Evlekis 07:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Jesuislafete, I think you should know two things before we go any further. 1) I'm not a Serb and do not sympathise with Serbian nationalist aspirations of any kind; 2) It wasn't I who presented that article. My paragraph comes immediately after and if you read it, you'll see that I too dismiss that site as biased. The paragraph immediately above your remark was dated last November in response to something nearer the time: if you assumed that this was something I wrote last night, you are forgiven. As for the Coat of Arms, Knin being under Zagreb rule, August 5th being a day of celebration in Croatia and a day of mourning for Serbs; really, I don;t dispute any of that and it doesn't bother me that greatly. Evlekis 07:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC) Evlekis 07:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Everything here is confusing : ) But my main point was to defunct that website as a "proper source." Heck, I find things written by Croats and Bosnians similar to that and people trying to use them as "factual". --Jesuislafete 01:03, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

1944. liberation from chetniks
Here's the link about the battle for Knin. It's in Croatian. Presudna bitka za Knin (Decisive battle for Knin) and Padom Knina Dalmacija je oslobođena (With the fall of Knin, Dalmatia is liberated). In those articles Knin area is mentioned as about "chetnik nest". Kubura 20:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

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Demography
First off, what does it matter if the "organization" is non-profit? Just look at it--a pro Serbian website which distorts facts and adds it's own invented ones in there as well. The author acts as if the Republic of Serbian Krajina is a legitimate state! "On the territory of the former SR of Croatia are situated two republics: the Republic of Croatia (capital Zagreb) and the Republic of Serb Krajina (here below RSK, capital Knin)." How is this objective? "The authentic Croatia is, in fact, the region of the kajkavian and čakavian (Croatian littoral) dialects." (not so subtle that everything else is Serbian.) "The most tragic thing was the loss of Dubrovnik which 'breathed Serbian'. It is true that the fight of the Serbian people for Dubrovnik in the 19th century was made difficult because Austria was pronouncedly Catholic and under a very strong influence of the Vatican." I'm not even going to comment on that, the quote alone is absurd enough.

May I also remind you that this is a page about the city of Knin, not how the Serbian population settled into Croatia during Turkish times. Take these examples: "The greater portion of the ethnic area of the Serb on the territory of the former SR of Croatia was settled by the Serbs from the 15th century to...... They fled from the Turks and moved along with them. In the war zone (north-western Dalmatia, Lika, Kordun, Banija, Slavonija), vast regions became completely or almost completely deserted." Once again, this has nothing to do with Knin, and information like that does not belong in this page let alone that section. Basically, the entire thing rambles on about how Serbs came to Croatia--not talking about Knin--and the Military frontier, which has NOTHING to do with demography. --Jesuislafete 23:14, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

---

Knin's demographics changed over time. This is why it is important to say how this happened, the migration of serbs and the invasion of ottoman turks. The AustroHungarians gave land to the Serbs, and so serbs moved the military frontier. This is why there were many serbs along the border with Bosnia. -LAz17 25, June

---

The Demographic information is wrong. The Serbs were the majority in Knin before World War II. Ethnic maps show this to be so. The resources used for references are very biased. -LAz17 25, June

---

Aye, Knin's demographics have changed over time (almost everywhere in Turkish-threatened areas have). The Austro-Hungarians let the Serbs settle in the Military Frontier (which by the way Knin was never a part of), they did not "give" the land to Serbia. The official government's website of Knin says Croats were the majority in Knin before WWII, how can they be biased? I wonder if you have any reliable sources backing up your claims. --Jesuislafete 19:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

---

Isn't it fair to say that the Croat government is anti-serbian biased? At least that's how they were during Tudjman's time, so that probably explains the website. There are ethnic maps that suggest otherwise. One site that had a good map is down. It's from 1939, but at least there is a very small picture of it - here, (edit: link expired) Also, the germans made an ethnic map of yugoslavia - I think it was based on previous maps. It shows knin and its surroundings with a serbian majority. Yes, Knin was not part of the military frontier, as it was in the dalmatian zone. Still, this region was one that the turks took control of, and where the same thing happened as in the vojna krajina region - serbian populations increased. Also, I added the 1961 census and 1981 census data. I think more data should be added, but I only have the '61 and '81 data, not '71 or other dates. -LAz17 - 26 June Some more ethnic map links that show that Knin was of a serbian majority... http://www.polisci.ucla.edu/faculty/trachtenberg/courses/AUSTRIA.GIF http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/europe/Balkanization.JPG

---

I have provided the info on the ethnic composition of the town of Knin from the Department of Geography, University of Zadar. ---

Thanks, anonymous dude. I put a table from the data that he publication had. -LAz17 - July 11, 2007

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The Truth Shall Set You Free
It seems that the people on both sides of this "discussion" conveniently forget that both the Serbs and the Croats committed their share of atrocities in the wars. I spent time in Knin and indeed throughout the former Yugoslavia from 1993 on and was deeply saddened by the behavior and actions of all sides. Death is death, weather it happens to a Bosniak, Serb or Croat. I saw too many young men, women and children slaughtered in the name of "national pride." Nothing can justify the blood of innocents. Shame on you all. Danieldeveau (talk) 22:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Daneil, thank you for your input, however what you have missed here is the fact that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a forum for the discussion of our own experiences, opinions, or ideas. Regards, --Cheeser1 (talk) 22:52, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Images
More images of Knin need to be put in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zvonimir City (talk • contribs) 10:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Economy
Can someone put info about the economy of Knin.

Logo
Can someone put Knin's logo on the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zvonimir City (talk • contribs) 10:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

AUGUST 2008

I have lived here in Knin for the past 2.5 years and have to say NO ONE from any "side" has cause to celebrate anything relating to the war. This includes those who originate from here, BOTH Serbian and Croat, and the misplaced persons who now currently populate this small town who are of a totally different mentality and culture.

For a region that was so rich in culture, natural beauty and history it is only a huge waste and nothing else. Alex —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.3.1.169 (talk) 21:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

POV tag now removed
It was actually added to the article in October 2006; whatever the original reason was, it is hardly applicable to the present article in its entirety. If there are remaining POV issues, please tag the offending sentences and/or sections. GregorB (talk) 12:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)