Talk:Knocker (folklore)

Knockers or Tommyknockers?
There is absolutely nothing I can find anywhere to suggest that Welsh and Cornish coal miners called these beings "Knockers" and that "Tommyknocker" is an American derivation. They were and are called "Tommyknockers" in the land of their origin and the article should reflect that. It was inappropriate license to change the title of the articles.--User:Clarkpark (Howard Evans) 1:, 15 May 2006

Growing up in Cornwall I always knew them as 'knockers', and they were said to be the spirits of Jews brought to Cornwall as slaves by the Romans to work the mines. They would signal the presence of ore (not coal - coal has never been mined in Cornwall). They had to be treated with respect, else they would bring bad luck. I don't have sources to hand, but will find out what I can and come back to the article.--DuncanHill 21:42, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I refer you to http://www.blm.gov/heritage/HE_Kids/tommy_knock.htm on the Bureau of Land Management website, and http://www.edcgov.us/stories/tommyknockers.htm on the El Dorado County site. Googling Tommyknockers and Knockers will reveal other data. While coal isn't common in Cornwall, it is in Wales, which is where most of the retreating Brythons wound up. Most of the data used to create this article came from the El Dorado site and a book on American myths and legends. The BLM site confirms the Cornish origin of the term Tommyknockers. The statement that you grew up in Cornwall lends you some credibility, though not nearly as much as you'd have if you could say you grew up in Cornwall two hundred years ago before the Cornish brought these legends here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clarkpark (talk • contribs)


 * Coal is indeed not common in Cornwall - there isn't any (except at the coal-merchants!)DuncanHill 23:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * More seriously, see http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/folklore/english_folk/knockers.html for a British view. DuncanHill 23:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Here are some further links:


 * http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/content/articles/2005/10/25/goblins_feature.shtml
 * http://www.connexions.co.uk/culture/html/folklore.htm
 * http://www.cranstar.co.uk/ftincop.htm
 * http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/prwe/prwe190.htm
 * http://geology.about.com/library/weekly/aa081300a.htm
 * http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1690075,00.html

which I hope will be helpful. DuncanHill 23:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The citations are not just helpful, but fascinating. One problem, though, is that they reflect only the Cornish perspective. Knockers also peopled the Welsh coal and metal mines. That Tommyknockers is an American derivation makes etymological sense since Tommy was American slang for Brits (although I have no idea why). It's reasonable to start with the working assumption that these legends go back to the time before the Welsh and Cornish were sundered by the Anglo-Saxon invasions of the 2nd through 6th centuries, when the Brythons were a geographically contigious cultural group. Also, are the quotes from Kingsley about the souls of diaspora Jews an accurate rendering of oral traditions, or embroidered with artistic license. The pantheon of the Celts, both large and small, is quite varied and many entities and stories differ substantively from place to place. Are you aware of any Welsh data on diminutive mine dwellers? Or legends that predate Anglo-Saxon Britain? Clarkpark (Howard Evans at clarkpark@twcny.rr.com)


 * 'Tommy' as slang for British people probably comes from its use to refer to the British soldier - Tommy or Tommy Atkins, maybe entered American slang following the First World War? DuncanHill 14:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

confusing
I added the confusing template because the article is indeed very confusing. At points it is difficult to tell weather it is talking about Welsh people or the mythical creatures, and it tries very little to ephasize the mythical side of the stories. Besides there is usage of slang such as "wee miners" and there is simply no source material listed at all.

--Fmafra 17:56, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

And I just removed it. When a second person tells you it's confusing, put the flag back. Until then, you should assume your confusion to be individual. I reread the article and can see literally no possibility that someone would be confused as to "weather" gnomes or actual miners were being refered to. Moreover, a corroborating source for much of the data herein is cited – the El Dorado County website. Did you actually read this article before you flagged it? It's very hard to find any correlation between it and your comments. Clarkpark Dec 10, 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clarkpark (talk • contribs)

Knocker vs Tommyknocker
Tommyknocker is not a US derivation of Knocker. The reason both words are used in Cornwall and also in places where Cornish miners influenced mining communities (Especially Canada and USA) is because Tommyknockers and Knockers are not the same the thing. There is a subtle difference. Knockers are members of the "wee folk" that live underground and whose attitude toward miners ranges from malicious to benevolent depending on the amount of respect the miners show to the Knockers. Many miners in Canada and USA (and Cornish miners with whom I've worked) still follow customs intended to show respect for Knockers "just in case", for example; never whistling underground, leaving a tiny bit of food outside your lunch-pail, etc. There is also a belief that if a miner dies underground then his soul will be trapped in the mine and he will be compelled by the Knockers to join them in their labour. The trapped souls of the men who have died in the mine are called Tommyknockers. SGM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.42.149.34 (talk • contribs)

I and my sources disagree. However I'd love to see corroboration of your assertion. If you can find any, this should be added to the article, even if prefaced by an alternate theory disclaimer. I find the concept of Tommyknockers as trapped souls to be profoundly poetic and romantic. Clarkpark Dec 10, 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clarkpark (talk • contribs)

Coblynau
It's my understanding that Coblynau is simply the Welsh name for the Cornish "knocker". Other than coblynau being described as wearing red and yellow scarves/handkerchiefs, there is virtually no difference between the two. Should the Coblynau article be merged into the Knocker article? And by the way, the Welsh term "bwca" is more cognate with the Scottish brownie than it is with the Cornish knocker. Bwciod (which I believe is the correct pluralization) are more likely to tidy a house than work in a mine. See Katharine M. Briggs' books and Wirt Sikes' British Goblins for reference. 67.167.26.239 05:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC) Chris G.

Welsh bwca and Cornish bucca (merely variant spellings of the same Brythonic word) is certainly cognate with Irish púca/"pooka." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.56.119.170 (talk) 04:21, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

french comic
If you are interested in a modern version of that myth: In the french comic La legende de changeling (Pierre Dubois, Xavier Fourquemin) you can find a miner story with a knocker, esp. at T2: Le croque-mitaine. for more information. love, --93.220.101.97 (talk) 16:06, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Removed section
"While some variety of "Little People" was common to all Celtic and northern Germanic peoples, the origin of knockers probably comes from early Welsh mythology, in which they may have been the pre-Brythonic inhabitants of the Celtic west of Britain. Skilled in the arts of mining and tunnelling, they taught these arts to the Britons. These legends may have influenced Tolkien's concept of the Dwarves, consummate miners and stoneworkers who taught these skills to men."

I have removed the above section as it doesn't correspond to the source at the bottom or other articles (that are well sourced) on wikipedia. Tolkiens Dwarves for instance are mostly inspired by Mythological Dwarves (Norse more than English or German hence the names) who were depicted as smiths and miners. There is no reason (or source) to believe that Tolkien was inspired by Knockers for the habits Dwarves as he didn't need to be as Dwarves in mythology had those habits.

The part about "little people being common to all was common to all Celtic and northern Germanic peoples" is true, though why "northern Germanic people" as Germans, Dutch and English have such myths.

It is the editors opinion that Knockers come from Brythonic mythology as we don't know enough about it and there are no references to such creatures. And there is no evidence that Knockers are supposed to represent pre-Brythonic inhabitants of the British Isles referenced.

This article needs work. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 01:30, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Connected Terms
There seems to be some related etymology here that may have been lost, or corrupted by popular culture. 'Hob' (as in spirit or goblin) may be combined with "knocker" to generate hobknocker. This term used to refer to the scary faces on the big metal door knockers of older times in England. Unfortunately, it has been equated with all manner of sexually derogatory references in modern US culture, and this has been perpetuated by certain sitcoms there. The origin of this is very likely that the shape of the old door knockers was (and even recently) likened to that of a prominent mons veneris. I have always understood these connections to be true, and they make sense, but finding reliable sources has proved next to impossible because modern English usage has moved on. If anyone knows of such a source then I believe it should be cited on this page. TonyP (talk) 16:31, 26 July 2020 (UTC)