Talk:Knuckleball

Copyright violation
The version of this page made by 163.1.247.84 was a copyright violation of an article in the New Yorker. I changed the language to remove the variation, but mainly through paraphrase. I would appreciate it if someone else would compare the versions and verify that the changes were sufficient. &mdash; Adam Conover &dagger; 18:07, May 16, 2004 (UTC)

Seams
Meeler -- I'll take your word for it regarding the seams of the knuckleball, but if you have more sources on how a knuckleball is thrown, why not add them anyway? The more information the better... &mdash; Adam Conover &dagger; 19:21, May 16, 2004 (UTC)

Jared Fernandez
Jared Fernandez is a knuckleballer and has been in and out of the majors for the last 4 years. Should he be mentioned as a knuckleballer that doesn't quite knuckle it? He has pitched for Houston and Cincinnati and is currently on the minor league triple A Houston Astros farm team the New Orleans Zephyrs. He is pitching poorly.


 * What do you mean "Doesn't quite knuckle it"? As long as he is a real knuckleball pitcher (and doesn't simply have, say, a knuckle-curve (i.e., not a true knuckleball) in his arsenal, sure, include him.   &mdash;  Adam Conover &dagger; 02:40, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)

Someone changed the article to say that the finger grip is the only grip used to throw the knuckleball today, rather than the original knuckle grip. I don't believe this is correct. It's my understanding that Fernandez (just mentioned above) for one uses a knuckle grip. As far as I know, he throws a knuckleball in the modern sense, though I haven't added him to the article because I think trying to list every knuckleball pitcher is excessive for this context. --Michael Snow 18:31, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * To explain another revert, I removed a reference to Mike Mussina throwing the knuckle curve. That's true enough as far as it goes, but there's a separate article on the knuckle curve, Mussina is mentioned there, and general information about the pitch and its practitioners belongs at that article. No offense intended, but the information strays from the main topic of this article and is only faintly relevant here. The discussion here is of pitchers who probably threw a knuckle curve, but are often called knuckleballers in the literature. As far as I know, Mussina is not generally referred to this way, so mentioning him is gratuitous. --Michael Snow 02:13, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Popular Knuckleballers
I started a list of some of the more popular, famous, and in the case of Eddie Cicotte, infamous knuckleballers in MLB history. If anyone else could include other Hall of Fame and/or famous knuckleballers that would be great. I would also suggest to not include everyone who throws/has thrown the knuckle, just the more popular or notable players. Darwin&#39;s Bulldog 23:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Does Steve Sparks really belong in the list of popular knuckleballers? His career was rather unimpressive and he's not even playing in the Majors now. Darwin&#39;s Bulldog 23:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * David McCarthy was added to the list by a suspected vandal. I can't find any source for this, and his wiki article lists him as a sprinter, not a pitcher.  I'm going to indicate that the claim is dubious unless anybody can cite it. --TexasDex 15:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I checked baseball-reference.com and no one named David McCarthy has ever pitched in the major leagues. I suppose this could be a misspelling of David McCarty, who pitched 3.7 innings for the Red Sox in 2004, but I do not believe McCarty threw the knuckler. Since this is a list of "popular knuckleballers," I think the McCarthy entry should be deleted. Srunstrom 21:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The list of "Popular knuckleballers" seems somewhat subjective. Actually, both words - "popular" and "knuckleballer" are pretty subjective. "Popular" seems to indicate I can add anyone I want, like the guy on my softball team who throws a pretty mean knuckleball. "Knuckleballer" is also hard to define. Rob Neyer defines about 70 major leaguers as knuckleball pitchers in "The Neyer/James Guide to pitchers," but there are around 200 other major league pitchers who threw it at least occasionally. And this is before we even define what counts as a knuckleball, which also is controversial since the definition has changed over time.

I added an External Link to "The (Mostly) Complete List of Knuckleball Pitchers" available at Knuckleball HQ. I wrote this article in 2005. It includes both a discussion of the problems with defining a "knuckleballer," and a list of just about everyone who ever threw a knuckler in the major leagues. Srunstrom 22:16, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Picture
Would it be possible to upload a picture of the grip?
 * I have added a photo that's on the Tim Wakefield article, which shows his grip fairly clearly. If there is a better photo available, it should replace the one I just added.....PKT 15:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Physics
| This site talks about the physics of the knuckleball, and there's no mention of "vortices building up on the seams" Instead, it seems that the lack of spin builds up a large turbulent wake on the back of the ball that pushes it around in flight. I'm not too good with physics, and I haven't vetted this source, but somebody should probably take a stab at figuring this out. Phyrkrakr (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 09:24, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Soccer
This is a technique used in football as well. I think that is worth mentioning on the page. You can read more about it under "Playing style" on Juninhos page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juninho_Pernambucano — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.129.63.105 (talk) 08:17, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Wikiquote
While reading "Knuckler", a biography of Tim Wakefield, I noticed that each chapter was headed with a quote about the knuckleball, and hoped to improve Wikiquote, but the page linked in this article does NOT EXIST!! 24.27.31.170 (talk) 20:30, 17 October 2011 (UTC) Eric

Grip
I understand how the fingertip-style grip would work, but for the original grip, what is meant by "holding the ball with the knuckles"? How does one hold the ball with their knuckles? Would it be possible to include a diagram or more specific description? Tad Lincoln (talk) 01:17, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

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Popular culture?
If there were a section on 'use in popular culture' there could be a mention of the Gillian Welch song 'Knuckleball catcher' The song is not about baseball, but every verse has the refrain 'A knuckleball catcher only gets one job to do' Would this be of interest?Dean1954 (talk) 12:55, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Rarity (2020 no knuckleball streak)
Todd Frazier threw knuckleballs on Sep 18th 2020, Braves at Mets, which I believe ended the streak mentioned in the page. They were recorded as curveballs by mlb.com but reporting about the game (official mlb Twitter account) and the in-game broadcast had them as knuckleballs. (should be noted that Frazier is of course not a pitcher but a position player). Wanted to consult before editing.

Origin
The main article currently credits Cicotte as a possible inventor.

However, the Apr/22/1908 Brooklyn Daily Eagle (page 23) states that Frosty Thomas showed the pitch to Cicotte while both were members of the 1905 Detroit Tigers. Thomas apparently didn't have success controlling it, so it's possible that Cicotte made some tweak that improved the pitch.

And, four days earlier, the Apr/18/1908 New York Evening World (pg 4) credits a knuckle ball to Nap Reuther, and includes drawings of the grip and delivery. Not clear whether this is the same pitch, though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:98A:4100:36A0:C41F:17D5:D841:6ED5 (talk) 17:56, 21 December 2021 (UTC)