Talk:Knuckles the Echidna/Archive 1

Article length
This article is ridiculously long. Is all of this necessary?


 * Yes, yes it is. Listen, I love SomethingAwful as much as the next person. Hell, I was delighted when I saw it as the ALoD. Now, I'm not into sonic or any of that junk, but just because Something Awful points out that it's long doesn't mean it should be lengthended (spelling?). I always go to SA, but hate the people that take their words as gospel. If it's informative on the subject, leave it as it is. If theres useless amounts of info on it, then yes, shortening it would be a good idea.EAB 05:31, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree... the bigger issue is those articles needing to be lengthened. The correct balance between article length and importance can be reached without destroying already-culminated knowledge, regardless of how unimportant some believe that knowledge is. 24.16.53.132 21:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Ummm no. This is an article about a minor character in a series of console games. The full article should read "Knuckles in a red echidna from the "Sonic the Hedgehog" series: Knuckles appears in XYZ games"

The current amount of fancruft in this article in embarressing and should be pruned

Minor? Hardly :( :(


 * This is a retardedly long article and seems to be useful to only a handful of people. This article is nearly as long as Tom Hanks and unlike Hanks, Knuckles is only a minor character and not one of the most important actors of a generation. Just saying. EAB and others, don't argue that the other articles need to be longer, because the truth of the matter is, it looks really lame and pathetic in comparison. - Stick Fig 15:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Minor character? I think not.  Knuckles appears in pretty much every Sonic game as one of the mainstays of the series.  Why don't you go pick on Sonic article or something?GrandMasterGalvatron 16:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It's a video game character. I don't care how many games Knuckles has been in, he doesn't have clout outside the circle of Sonic fans. When he has as much name recognition among the general populace as Tom Hanks, George Bush, or heck, Sonic, he can have an article this huge. I'm going to edit this article down further and kill the fancruft. - Stick Fig 01:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * WHY DON'T YOU PEOPLE BITCH ABOUT SONIC'S ARTICLE?!!GrandMasterGalvatron 14:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Stop taking this personally. It's for your own good. - Stick Fig 15:38, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not taking it personally...I just don't get it!GrandMasterGalvatron 16:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Knuckles the Echidna is a relatively minor character for the amount of backstory he has on this page. In mainstream popular culture, he's remembered for Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles and that's about it. Wikipedia is not a place to give every little detail about a topic, but enough for a layman to pick up on. Does a layman really need to know about every romantic relationship a cartoon echidna has ever had, or the entire plotline to a comic series based on him? It says right in your profile that you're a longtime fan of the Sonic series. Therefore, you're biased towards Knuckles. I'm not biased one way or the other, and have been able to fix up pages like Fred Durst according to Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Let me help you make this a good article. - Stick Fig 17:55, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I might mention that Stewie Griffin's article seems to be twice as long. The cartoon point is moot.  At the rate you guys are going, why don't you just put the article up for deletion?GrandMasterGalvatron 19:59, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * This is being blown out of porportions. The article is fine. If you really are botherd, all we need to do is trim a little here and there, re word things to make it shorter, that's all. We don't need to mass remove, delete, etc. UnDeRsCoRe 20:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the main factor is that the article really needs to be organized much better, more than shortened. There's some minutia such as the nicknames that are inappropriate for Wikipedia, as are the obscene amout of images, but other than that the organization and presentation is what really needs work. -- Wizardry Dragon (Talk to Me) (Support Neutrality on Wikipedia) 21:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Is it just me, or did Knuckles' whole article dissaper? Emerald__Storm 20:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Elaborate on Subject
Since the title of this article is Knuckles the Echidna, it MIGHT be worthwhile to MENTION him in the article. -- Zoe

does knuckles have fangs? In some games he does, but sometimes he does not. "His creator is Damien A. Peeplesof Charleston,South Carolina"?! wtf...-.-http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/button_hr.png Horizontal line (use sparingly)

"He uses abilities that require punching"? What does that mean? Does he punch people? Does the player have to punch the video game console or perhaps other players? Please fix that sentence, I've removed it for the time being. --Eloquence

i've never heard any of those nicknames, are they from the comic or something?

Also, is Sonic X a cartoon thing or an anime? I think it's anime! EDIT TIME! DING DING DING!

I don't know whether it is worth knowing or writing, or whether it is just me, but i think that it is worthwhile to note knuckles' personality change. It seems that in the course of his adventures, he has became a little more jokey, a little more caring and he just seems to be more cheerful. He is still serious and quiet, but in heroes, riders and shadow, he just seems a better person. I also notised that in the sonic advance 3 manual it refers to him as sonics best freind and rival

Super Knuckles in Sonic Heroes
It is a fair assumtpion that the "sk.Amn" file does indeed refer to Super Knuckles. The file for SuperSonic is called "ss.amn" and the one for Super tails is called "st.anm" Since we know that "ss" can't mean anything other than "Super Sonic" then it's just as well that the "sk" and "st" can't possibly mean anything else, especially since both files are what enable the two's super animations in the first place. If you decompress Super Sonic's .dff file "ss.dff" you will see that it contains SuperSonic's aura thing and the globes for Super Tails and Super Knuckles which are called "chrball". Also, Super Sonic's texture file "ss.txd" holds the texture for the balls which is called "ef_chbl_y.dds" (effect_characterball_yellow). Surely if the s in "sk.amn" meant sheild then those two files would reflect it. Also, if they were meant to be called anything other and "Super" then the filenames would reflect it. Grandmastergalvatron 05:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Master Emerald and Kneecapeon
By the way, the Master Emerald is more important to Knuckles than the Chaos Emeralds. He's the guardian of the Master Emerald, not the Chaos Emerald. He probably hardly even cares about the Chaos Emeralds! For example, when the Master Emerald pieces in Sonic Adventure 2 flew out of the spaceship, he became furious and took over the ship. Knuckles does not really care for Chaos Emeralds, so quit making it so important to him, please!

Also, why is Kneecapeon a half-brother? --anon how come knuckles used to wear a hat? Where has the hat gone! The dissapearance has angered many hat fans. I want answers - from quiche

Offically, sonic x is classed as an anime and comedy. I hope that answers your question. I am afraid that i can not answer the question about the hat-- from Pickled Dalek

i thought knuckles was 16...

Well, just look at the Sonic game booklets. And when has Knuckles worn a hat? --anon

Knuckles wore a hat in the Archie comics, and also in Sonic the Hedgehog: The Movie. And he's 16 in Sonic X. That's probably the most reliable source outside of Sega itself. --Some Girl Called Harley.

Secret Appearance
What does everyone think to this section? Could it be merged with another area of the article or simply removed, since there's an appropriate article for Sonic & Knuckles. Also, it's not technically a secret, considering "Knuckles the Echidna in Sonic the Hedgehog 2" is mentioned in the S&K instruction manual. Thoughts? --L T Dangerous 03:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Kneecapeon is a half brother, because he was only born to one of knuckles's parents. His mother is kneecapeons mother, but kneecapeons father is wynmacher.

Are you trying to say that Knuckles's mother divorced (or her husband died) and then married someone else? --anon

Yes, Lara-Le (Knuckles' mother) split up from Locke (Knuckles' father) because the two were always arguing and he upset her many times --- not to mention he abandoned her and Knuckles and disappeared to them because of the guardian tradition that the youngest has to fend for itself, Lara moved on and married Wynmacher, whom she had a son with called Kneecapeon. Locke still loves her though, apparently.

Okay, I get it. --anon

Games come first, then other stuff. I'll change the article to reflect the standard we've been using in other character pages. --DavidHOzAu 10:39, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Fan Sites
How come there are no links to fan sites? I own a Knuckles fan site. I'd like to add a link. ~ Timper


 * Wikipedia is not a link exchange. Please respect it. Wizardry Dragon 00:03, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * If your fansite is a great source of information on Knuckles, then, by all means, go ahead. If it's a fledgeling product, or a mess, or is not a good website, don't even bother.  --Luigifan 04:38, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

It only links if the website is a reference. UnDeRsCoRe 03:16, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Quotes
As much as I hate removing something that a lot of people seem to have added to, I'd like to remove the "Quotes" section, as it is very useless.

Most of the quotes fail to provide any insight to his character or history. A lot are hardly quotes at all; I dare someone to give me a valid reason that "Shaa!" and "Uh-no!" are actually worthwhile quotes.

On top of that, none of the other sonic characters (nor most videogame chars that I've seen) have such sections, as videogame characters of their time (before every game had a script) didn't have much dialogue.

So - I'm going to remove it. Feel free to debate.

SonOfNothing 23:25, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Don't delete it! Just move it to Wikiquote, okay? It's at the Sonic the Hedgehog section. --anon

I think we ought to bring the quotes section back, but fill it up with some of the more worthwhile quotes... wait, no ive changed my mind. but they ought to print the "Whew... I think my heart stopped!" I have no idea why, but it cracks me up. also the person who wrote that about rouge ought to know that the reason he likes her, is because she makes him laugh, and because she is fellow treasure hunter... So Ner! from Winston

But shouldn't it go in Wikiquote? Wikiquote is a place for quotes! --anon

That is, indeed, what Wikiquotes is for, so go ahead and do that. If you can fill a page with good, worth-while quotes that aren't just "uh!" and "what?", then please, by all means... SonOfNothing

knuckles comics
Could somebody please tell me how knuckles dies and comes back to life? I have read his page, the funeral ( Knuckles- the afterlife) But he is alive and well in later issues. please explain. Thank you. Dalek

Sonic the Hedgehog #124 has a back-story on Knuckles' decision to come back to life. Issue #125 is when he makes his actual re-entrance, but he isn't quite quick enough to save Sonic from sacrificing himself. Knuckles lost the ability to fly because of the process, a side-effect which was in many ways unnecessary and tended to waste everything Archie and Sega had done up to that point developing his character. (Note: he may have since regained his flying ability, however I am not too sure because I can no longer afford to keep getting the comics any more.) --DavidHOzAu 05:33, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

thanks david! Poor knuckles. isn't it sad when locke dies in hospital, and knuckles starts crying? Why does locke die? IS ANYBODY ACTUALLY GOING TO EVER ANSWER THIS QUESTION? HOW DOES LOCKE DIE!!??

Knuckles regains some of his Chaos powers when he transforms into Super Knuckles whilst defending the Master Emerald from Hunter during the liberation of Angel Island. - Sh@z@M

Love Life
Whoever typed that stuff about Knuckles and Tikal, please don't just put your opinions in this article. Also, you should try to have your facts straight. For one thing, Tikal isn't really one of the last echidnas, since she is from the past. Another thing is, I've looked on multiple Fanfiction websites, and found that Knuckles + Tikal isn't nearly as popular as Knuckles + Rouge. The "The Knuckles' Tribe Girl" thing didn't mean anything either, because it means she is from the same tribe as him. And finally, it is not official in any way that Knuckles and Tikal are a couple. I'm not tryingto insult you, I'm just saying that you should stick to the facts.

For the matter, stop opinionating with the knucklesxrouge thing.

Dreadlocks
Actually, although they resemble the hairstyle, they're actually quills much the same as sonic's. The echidna is an actual mammal (monotremes to be exact.  A primitive egg laying mammal.)  Echidnas look something like a cross between an anteter and a porcupine. Likely chosen as Sonic's rival as both Hedgehogs and Echidnas are quilled mammals.

Perhapse a link to the echidna article would be apropriate for this article since unlike hedgehogs echidnas are not so well known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echidna

Gliding Ability
While the article states that Knuckles can glide by "trapping air under his dreadlocks", is there any factual basis for an Echidna's ability to glide? Perhaps they have skin flaps like a flying squirrel? Or is it just a game mechanic, such as Sonic's speed?68.198.120.115

Yes it's a game mechanic...A spikey ant eater wouldn't be able to actually fly...EVER.--86.133.43.29 11:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's face it though, not many game characters actually share the traits of their representative animals. The Babylon Rogues don't even have wings. - Sh@z@M

Unless of course, it had a few million years of evolution to play with.--Centurion Ry 22:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Archie Knuckles Article?
Sonic the Hedgehog has an article based on his Archie Comics chracter. I believe that Knux ought to have one as well. There is a lot of backstory in there, given that Knuckles is the only other main character who actually had an enduring series of his own.

I think that this should be done (I would probably make a mess of it myself though). I am sure that others agree. - User:Sh@z@M

Even though I strongly dislike the Archie comics, it is an interesting proposal. TMNT Donatello 07:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so. Sonic got one since he IS the main character of the comic. The others should not get one when it can easily be merged into the characters article. UnDeRsCoRe 03:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Knuckles did however have a series that outlasted all of the other secondary serials. Sh@z@M 18:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Knuckles Images
Warning: i can´t speak english, if my gramatic is very unreadable, plese, i'm sorry!!!!

Hi, i'm user in the Spanish Wikipedia. Here, is illegal to use images "fair use", as the Knuckles images. What can i do ?

Contact me in "Usuario: Mr. X" in Wikipedia.es

I think your english is perfectly fine. the picture has been upgraded too.
 * I reverted that update as the picture was of low quality. Let's just wait for the JPN site update.GrandMasterGalvatron 17:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Super Mode issues
Ok...it seems there's an edit war going on here. It's time to settle this once and for all. We seem to be having an issue on Knuckles' status in Sonic Heroes. It's quite interesting how the edits being made to say he's not super conflict with other information in the article. I can only assume that some folks don't think he is Super because he didn't change color, correct? I want to at least confirm this before moving on. Grandmastergalvatron 15:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Color as nothing to do with it as it is merely embelishment, Knuckles never turned Super, as if he had turned, he wouldn't need Sonic's "bubble", "barrier" whatever you want to call it. Also the most commom "proof" is said to be in the filename, which has been said to be "sk" just like Sonic's is "ss". Now, that is in my opinion and thought a mere way to distinguish Knuckle's normal entitie, aside from the Knuckles "bubble" entitie. The "s" could mean many things, like stating he was part of Team Super Sonic. Until official confirmation is made, "Super Knuckles", and btw, "Super Tails", haven't made an appearance since Sonic & Knuckles and Sonic 3 & Knuckles respectively.Czin 20:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

But if Knuckles did change color then you wouldn't be saying all that jazz. The sole argument against Knuckles being super is that he isn't pink and that the power came from Sonic. Well, you must remember that Knuckles staying pink is an archie thing, and archie canon doesn't count in the games. In the games, his primary color is RED as it is the darkest shade of this form (just as Sonic's was yellow and Metal's was gold). The fact still remains that Knuckles demonstrates all the powers of a super form and his power surpasses that of Super Sonic. Nothing other than a super form could do that. There are no secondary super forms. Either you're super, or you're not. Also, look at the team blast. The formation symbols appear behind the characters as to say that they are the ultimate form of that formation. How could a secondary super form be the ultimate power?! The whole point of the game is team work. For them to not be super would be contrary to the games's message. About that "s", if it's not "Super" what's to stop it from referring to Sonic? No doubt "ss" is Super Sonic. So if "sk" makes knuckles act super, then surely it must mean his is super. To dispell those other things, the team identifier is stored within the animation file (it's an archive), and for all three is "Super". Also, the model for the auras are stored within Super Sonic's model. Tails' and Knuckles' auras, and all textures for them are called "Character Ball". Remember that Super Sonic had the same type of barrier in Sonic Adventure and yet he was still Super. Now Knuckles has one, and has the abilities of a super form. Since he never changed color like Sonic did, then that's all that is needed for him to be super. The chaos emeralds affect diffrent characters in different ways as seen with Gmel, Chaos, and Emerl. Knuckles is no less Super than Sonic. Grandmastergalvatron 15:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think he turned super, not because of his color, it's because of the bubble. The bubble, SUper Sonic's bubbble, gave him the powers, he didn't turn super. And besides, he was not as powerful as Super Sonic. Well, that's my POV, if you think otherwise, that's your opinion. And to be honest, It seems as if Super Tails and Super Knuckles were dropped. Not from canon nessecarily, just, they were forgotten. UnDeRsCoRe 20:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You just gave me more proof of how it is YOUR view of things. "The formation symbols appear behind the characters as to say that they are the ultimate form", this is clearly your view of things. In the games he flashes Hot Pink or whatever you like to call it, "The whole point of the game is team work" this is the ultimate truth, and each one of them as a unique ability to contribute in said team, Sonic's most valuable "team work" was to help his friends fight alongside him. And if a bubble is a indicator of Super Form, then Tails was Super, but we all know he needs Super Emeralds, so until any official statement is made, it is pure speculation.Czin 21:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Nothing has been revealed wheather or not they were Super or not. It seems, as you said, is pure speculation. Wikipedia isn't here for rumours or unrefferenced opinions. We could just put a small note on how it's debated. That's all. It's not such a big thing. UnDeRsCoRe 21:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

As for the strength thing, that is no opinion. Play the battle. If you try to break the ships with Sonic, he'll take damage no matter what. Knuckles is the only one that can break the ships scot free. Perhaps until we get some confirmation we can put in both sides of the argument? And bout the Bubble, Sonic had one in Sonic adventure...it's different now because? Grandmastergalvatron 16:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Knuckles is always able to detroy large, heavy, blunt objects. (e.g. Sonic Riders, Sonic Adventure 2). UnDeRsCoRe 21:28, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That's true, but the fact that this power up of Knuckles can and Super Sonic can't shows that the power up is possibly stronger Grandmastergalvatron 21:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

In the meantime, perhaps we could make a subsection called "the Sonic Heroes debate" and shows the reasons for the notion and the reasons against? Also, since Super Knuckles' description is based on the 3d appearance, if we're going to count that as a separate entity then the description is going to need a serious overhaul. I'll make the needed changes but I wanna get second opinions, and possibly preview the section here in the talk page first. Grandmastergalvatron 21:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * A small note, not a whole secti0on devoted to it. UnDeRsCoRe 21:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd hate to get off topic from this debate, but some IP ADDRESS keeps on adding that he WAS super even though we have not come to a conclusion. So, please wait. UnDeRsCoRe 21:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, why don't we just put what whatever it is that we conclude there? Grandmastergalvatron 23:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't have Heroes any more, but if Knuckles is stronger than Super Sonic, can he break those crystals shot by Metal Overlord, without taking damage or becoming traped? If he can't than the only reason he can break the ships, Tails the spikes and Sonic the crystals is obviously a game mechanic to emphasize team work, creating a "Counter System" so to speak and would negate the speculation that Knuckles is stronger.Czin 12:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That sounds reasonable but you would have to remember that's it's the character's asset that deals the damage. Knuckles doesn't have the speed required to break the crystals and Sonic doesn't have the power to break the ships.  As for Tails, he seems to be quite useless as both Knuckles and Sonic can efficiently handle his portion (the latter at the cost of rings).  A litlle more detail about the crystals: Knuckles stays to stationary to destroy them, they come at him before he can make contact.  Sonic can use Light Attack, Blue tornado, Rocket Accel or even Homing Attack because they're all quick motion attacks.  Knuckles' moves, while more powerful, are quite slow. Grandmastergalvatron 14:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, that speculation would make them all of equal power.Grandmastergalvatron 14:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The article says Super knuckles doesen't change color in the Sonic 3, but he is pink, i'm changing this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PopiethePopester (talk • contribs)
 * If you read the article, and the debate here, you'll see that he doesn't.GrandMasterGalvatron 13:23, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't just change it. Ask others if it is or not. UnDeRsCoRe 00:32, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Listen pal, i have the game, he does turn pink. i also have sprites, and his pink color is widly accepted as canon.

But, if it'll help, we should put it as " super knuckles' color is widly disputed. Some would swear he is hot pink, while other's say he doesent change at all.
 * I also have the game (on Sonic Mega Collection, and, yes, Super Knuckles does become lighter in color; however, it looks like a light red color, not pink. I don't think Sega would want to make him turn pink, because Sonic CD was released before Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and Sega probably wouldn't want his color to match Amy's.  You should notice that they haven't made any yellow characters yet, because that's Super Sonic's color.  --Luigifan 11:33, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Super Knuckles is not pink. If he was pink, the the game select picture would be pink as well, just as Super Sonic's is yellow.  I have the game as well.  If Super Knuckles were meant to be pink, he would stay that color.  With an argument like this, you might as well say Super Sonic is white.  The color of a Super Form is detemined by the darkest color flash during transfromation with the exception being Hyper Sonic, who has no set color.  On the select screen, in game, and at the ending, Super Knuckles is RED.  It's the same scenario with Tails, and will be the same scenario with Silver. Also, we're not going for what the fans accept, as most of them are blined by "SegaSonic" bais anyways.  We're going for the truth and for the most part, that's what we have (because some of these people are right stubborn and won't believe Super Knuckles has has a second coming XD)GrandMasterGalvatron 12:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Section Reorginization
It looks like we're going to count Knuckles' power up as a seperate unknown entity, so I'll probably need it's own paragraph. However, Super Knuckles' description was written with the thought of the new power being his revival. Counting it different would mean negating all of that info. The thing is, the description as it stands is actually an accurate description of what Super Knuckles would be if used in 3D. (yes, he still is red) With this in mind, should it stay or should it go. Grandmastergalvatron 14:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe the most reasonable would be to state that in Heroes, he acquired powers similar to those of a Super form. Wether to state if it was through Super Sonic or not is most likely irrelative, though if we state he didn't acquire a Super form per se then he would most likely be powered by Sonic, since if he was the one who gave himself powers, it would be logical to assume he would become Super.Czin 22:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I have now redone the entire section and left the Heroes issue open ended. I will do the same for Tails Grandmastergalvatron 03:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Protect?
Seeing as this article is the current Something Awful Awful Link of the Day, should this article be protected (or semi-protected)? --86.27.54.121 16:14, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I JUST reverted a vandal, and it seems there's no talk history. I suppose we're going to have to wait until he/she vandalizes another page and then report him/her for vandalism after an administrator (or established user) leaves a message on their talk page. --D.F. "Jun Kazama Master" Williams 16:17, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I have cleaned up all these unnecessary comments. Carry on. Grandmastergalvatron 18:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Unnecessary comments? I'm sorry to say this, but "I LOL'D". How can a comment be unnecessary? In a similar vein, the something awful linkage was spot on, you people really need to reconsider your priorities in writing articles. Zalle 19:53, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * They were unnecessary because they were spam, and not contributing to the article. Grandmastergalvatron 20:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Per request, I've temporarily protected the article, due to vandalism. Andrew Lenahan -  St ar bli nd  18:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

why the hell is this so long in the first place? Kingcobweb 23:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Bored SEGA fans and an absurd preoccupation with the Archie comics. --tjstrf 23:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I, personally, don't like (or read) the archie comics. But it's here because it's about KNUCKLES IN ALL VERSIONS. And what some bad link website thinks of this article dosen't matter. WHO CARES WHAT THEY THINK. I sure don't. And as for the vandilism, some bored people get a kick out of it. Unfortunatley, most of their vandilism is far from funny. It's just plain stupid. --  UnDeRsCoRe  23:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Bad link website? I suppose you aren't familiar with the site, as you would have known that it's a satire/parody website, and the daily link is a minor (though enjoyable) aspect of the site. They do have a good point, however; why is this article longer than the entries for Echidnas, The Internet, The Internal Combustion Engine, William Shakespeare, Western Culture? It's sad.--C.Logan 02:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well if you want it to get to GA status, you're going to have to do some serious trimming. --tjstrf 23:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed, there seems to be way too much stuff in this article which is completely unneccessary. Whysquared 04:12, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I can't believe Something Awful is forcing us to shorten articles and make us doubt our writing. Like I said, "If it's informative on the subject, leave it as it is. If theres useless amounts of info on it, then yes, shortening it would be a good idea". I haven't read the article, but I'm gonna assume that it contains a good amount of info in it. Now, let's put that much work into the other articles. It's not this article that needs shortening, it's the others that need lengthening. If it's very informative on the subject, I see no wrong with it.EAB 06:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Encyclopedias are here to provide clear and concise information. If the purpose of Wikipedia was to provide everything that could inform you about a subject, it'd be a linkdump.Nimmo 07:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well said. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia - if people are using fan fiction as a reference for a Wikipedia article, Britannica Online must be besides themselves with laughter. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.97.121.51 (talk • contribs).

I would suggest reporting all IPs that have committed recent vandalism to SA's forum admins, as last I heard vandalising Wikipedia was a bannable offence in the forums. I would also suggest people read Writing about fiction, as this article has way too much stuff in it, and practically all written in-universe.--Drat (Talk) 09:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Seriously, SA really is on to something here... take this for example:


 * Some fans describe Knuckles and Rouge's relationship as a "love-hate relationship". These fans assert that, while Knuckles and Rouge love each other, they know that they cannot give in to their feelings because of their opposing jobs (with Knuckles being the Guardian of the Master Emerald and Rouge as a goverment spy and a jewel thief.) The future of Knuckles and Rouge's relationship is uncertain, and remains to be seen.


 * Why is this even in here? "Some fans describe"? Who does? Where? Why is it relevant to the subject? This is a problem that many topics have that are potential nerd baits (e.g. Star Trek, Final Fantasy, obscure cartoons, etc.), some people just infodump their entire anal-retentive knowledge there. That would be fine in, say, a "Sonic Wiki". But in Wikipedia it's problematic, because it makes the article nearly unreadable for anybody who is not into Sonic and comes here for short and concise info on the subject. (At least the most outlandish pieces of info should be linked to, but not included in the main article.) --Agitpop 09:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * (again with the colons) Funny that you mention that, there actually is a Sonic Wiki Grandmastergalvatron 23:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Who actually wrote the majority of this article, I can't think of a single group of users to which Knuckles would be so popular. Anyone old enough to remember when Knuckles made his debut will no longer care about it now, is it from his Sonic Adventure appearances or is it fans of Sonic TV shows?  Or possibly the fan fiction furries? - Hahnch  e  n 23:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It is the collaboration of fans of the series.Grandmastergalvatron 23:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Even if that is so, Grandmastergalvatron, the article still has to be impartial and unbiased, see NPOV. In its present state, the article reads too much like fancruft to belong in an encyclopedia, and it definitely needs to be trimmed down.  It is not the "SA Halfwits" that want this article to be trimmed.  However, it was them who brought this article to the attention of other editors.  If you wish to find biased and in-depth information on every piece of information you may (or may not) want to know about Knuckles the Echidna, a google search should bring up what you're looking for.  But all of that information shouldn't be on Wikipedia.  Héous 23:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * With the aforementioned wiki being pathetically skimpy and focusing only on the games, do you REALLY think that there's any other place that's gonna provide DETAILED, ACCURATE, UNBIASED DATA on said subject?Grandmastergalvatron 01:14, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I have to agree. Frankly, I used to like the Sonic series up until the retarded 3D games started injecting your standard-issue anime cliche bullshit into every single game and made millions of fans. This article is a perfect example of one of the biggest flaws of Wikipedia: user interest in subjects. The reason this is larger than the echidna article or William Shakespeare or many other articles is that, well, Wikipedia is sort of on the internet, and on the internet you get certain... types of people. Said types of people tend to be more than passionate about their interests when on the internet, and that's when things get out of hand. I mean for god's sakes, there are people discussing the relationship between two fictional anthropomorphs with personalities as interesting as boards of plywood. The internet is a cesspit for these kinds of matters. Very few truly astute people take sites like Wikipedia seriously due to this oversaturation of what is, quite frankly, downright stupid content. That's what Something Awful was mocking, and it's really sad to see that this is no longer a stereotype. It's now fact. Fanboys run the internet. We are all doomed.Chef Brian 02:17, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * So, what's wrong with having well-written immensely detailed articles about fictional characters? Last I knew, nothing. --tjstrf 06:08, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That would be a question worth exploring, seeing as most of the article is just long but short of being well-written.--Agitpop 08:08, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That's why I whole-heartedly support trimming it. --tjstrf 14:47, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

"So, what's wrong with having well-written immensely detailed articles about fictional characters? Last I knew, nothing"

True, but answer me this whats good about long winded poorly winded Fancruft about trivial bollocks?
 * The fact that it's your POV. Just because you don't like said subject doesn't mean you have to vandalize his article.  There is an immense amount of history to the character and I'm positive that you won't find it in unbiased from anywhere else.  I bet you'll go after Sonic's article next. Grandmastergalvatron 17:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That's why I say we need to reach a golden mean, long enough to be comprehensive, but not eternal hell by fancruft. That's what we're working towards here. --tjstrf 17:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

No Galvatron personally i think i'll go outside and enjoy my life rather than dedicating myself to the defense of a character from a series of games and tv shows designed for children
 * Ah yes, take the "reality" route and ignore the possibility that I might actually be on of said children. Personal attacks aside, people actually made all of the information regarding said subjects over the years.  The wealth of information avaible deserves to be archived in a fashion like the one here. Grandmastergalvatron 17:31, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Its quite obvious your older than the characters intended Audience, you use grammer and punctuation, your spelling is correct and you are capable of forming a coherant (although depressing) defense of your position. All this suggest that you are at least in your teenage years and should have stopped caring about the lives of Red Hedgehogs long ago


 * And you should by the same token be old enough to do things other than bitch about how other people spend their time online. --tjstrf 17:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Concept Mobius link broken
The Concept Mobius link is broken. Therefore, a new citation is needed or a mirror is needed. I don't know what to do it about it but I'll leave it alone so that 50 people don't try to revert it at the same time. --Robot Chicken 02:59, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Archie and Fleetway
Could someone with proficient knowledge of these continuities trim the sections as necessary?Grandmastergalvatron 00:57, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Trimming done...for now
I can't believe I actually conformed to the will of these pathetic vandals. Once the trimming of the Comic sections are done, this article will damn near be ready to be merged into some other article. I've also removed as much "fancruft" (what a lame word) as I could, as well as speculatory statements. I can't think of anything else to do to the poor thing. I DARE someone to find a comprehensive, unbiased collection of data on Knuckles. Grandmastergalvatron 01:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Actually, I've been wanting to do that for ages, but the couple times I tried editing this page I ended up getting effectively reverted a bit later. The article WAS way too long. If it takes SA pointing it out to get the article trimmed, so be it. --tjstrf 01:28, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. I must admit, it's calming to see my efforts appreciated ^^ Grandmastergalvatron 01:36, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

btw, congratulations, we are now shorter than both William Shakespeare and Internet, and only 1 kb longer than Internal combustion engine. Something Awful needs to update their main page. --tjstrf 15:32, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

So in your opinion a man who dedicates his time to writing and protecting detailed dissertations about the love life of an anthropamorthic hedgehog is less pathetic than one who defaces said tripe?
 * Very much so, 220.233.85.90. Defacing anything makes said person look like a common fool and an immature one at that. Grandmastergalvatron 17:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, and don't forget, that someone was paid to create such details in the first place. Grandmastergalvatron 17:32, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Certainly. I'll take a cruft fan anyday over an anonymous coward troll. The cruft fan is at least acting in good faith, and is attempting to improve the wiki. Besides, if you look at the top 1000 most visited articles, our cruft writers are writing some of the most viewed articles on the Wiki. --tjstrf 17:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

More trimming needed
Trimming done? Are you serious? Have a look at portuguese version of the article - this is the maximum size it should be. Actually, in a perfect world it would be something like:


 * Knuckles the Echidna is a fictional character in the Sonic the Hedgehog series of video games, television shows and comics. He is a red echidna, and has dreadlock-like spines.

(and not even in separate article!). Wikipedia is a general encyclopaedia, and not supposed to be a collection of information that would be interesting only for a few fans. Personality? Love life? Relations? Theme songs? Futurix 15:49, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You call that informative?! Grandmastergalvatron 16:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * This is more then enough on the topic. You can also link to external websites that provide additional information. Futurix 16:41, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you really think that there is another website that will provide detailed, informative, and UNBIASED information on said subject?Grandmastergalvatron 17:14, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * If there is no such website, then you are breaking Wikipedia rule: there should be no original research in the articles. If this is the case, then I suggest you to open Wikia wiki on this topic and move this material there. Futurix 17:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, WP:NOR does not include collecting information from other sources. There is no other single site with all this info, though there are plenty with bits and pieces of it. --tjstrf 17:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Link to the "bits and pieces" then. Futurix 17:59, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Uh, no. It should probably be in the 25-28 kb range. --tjstrf 16:43, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * What is the source for this limit? Futurix 16:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Common sense, personal experience, and WP:SIZE. --tjstrf 17:24, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * My common sense and experience say 2 kb at most. As for WP:SIZE - it sets the technical and readability rules, it does not measure whether information is worthy of inclusion or not. Futurix 17:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Your common sense apparently ignores that there is more than 2 kb of information to be stated. If you can find specific sentences that you believe are useless, remove them. If you aren't going to proactively help, go whine somewhere else. --tjstrf 17:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * This article is not your property or website - I have same right to be here as you are. And, I'll rephrase, most of this information is not encyclopaedic and has no place in Wikipedia. Futurix 17:59, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Then remove it. This article does not fall under any WP:NOT concerns, and the Sonic series is a notable one. --tjstrf 18:12, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

please please please clean this article up
I think it is absolutely absurd that an article about a character in a video game is this long. I have a few suggestions that would make this article more acceptable to wiki standards: merge Knuckles' involvement in the Archie comic into the main Archie comic page merge the Sonic the Comic stuff into same merge and shorten personality and love life sections

if that means shortening what has been already written upon incorporation to the comic entries, so be it. as it stands now, this reads almost like fan fiction, not a wiki entry.

on the "What Wikipedia is Not" page we find the section "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" and under that, the following: "Plot summaries. Wikipedia articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger article."

and I think it isn't too much of a stretch to say that this entry, given that essentially everything contained within it is a work of fiction, should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on the impact or historical significance of the character of Knuckles, NOT an indiscriminate collection of trivial information - also one of the five pillars being that wikipedia is not a trivia directory. and I know that there are some of you that have worked really hard on this article, and so I'll leave it up to all of you who contributed the most to first mark it for cleanup, and then to clean it up.

cheers.

Spankmecold 19:46, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I and a couple others have actually been trimming it quite a bit, but since I have no clue about Archie comics or whatever, I'm not exactly qualified to judge what should and shouldn't stay of that part. --tjstrf 19:48, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Dammit people how much do you want?! Do you want this article to be reduced to a mere dictionary entry?! Because that's what's gonna happen after all these God forsaken edits!  It's gonna be worse than Sonia's article at this rate (Which BTW, I want to expand...it hurts to see her treated like that).  GO AFTER SONIC'S ARTICLE DAMN YOU! Grandmastergalvatron 20:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Sonia the Hedgehog's article is also way too long... especially since, compared to Knuckles, she's pretty much non-notable. --tjstrf 20:43, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Way to long?! It's non existant!  She's a main character of her canon, surely her aticle should be long than the few sentences it is.  At the very least it should have a damn picture!
 * Also, I trimmed the comic sections myselfGrandmastergalvatron 21:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's over a page in length at 1600x1200, she's a minor character from a non-canon storyline. And thanks for the trim on the comics sections. --tjstrf 21:41, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Minor Character?! Have you even watched Sonic Underground?  There are several episodes devoted to just her! Grandmastergalvatron 02:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * again, see the wikiguides on what wikipedia is NOT. eg not an indiscriminate collection of information, meaning every SINGLE piece of info as regards Sonia/Knuckles etc should NOT be included, just what is the MOST relevant. frankly, given that the entire article is about a fictional character with little bearing or impact on the world at large, it should not be that long. (see the portuguese version of the article - that is acceptable length). I mean, the Knuckles article's like as long as the entry on Sherlock Holmes, and he's had about 1,000 times the amount of impact on popular culture that Knuckles has, to say nothing of Sonia, who I've never even heard of.Spankmecold 08:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I suppose I agree that the article needed trimming, but why get rid of the trivia section? Trivia is clearly a Wiki page staple. Paul Haymon 05:09, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Because trivia sections are hideous, useless, and inherently unencyclopedic. They should NEVER become a "Wiki page staple". --tjstrf 06:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Quite true, but look at all the pages with trivia that already exist... at this point, consistency is possibly better than revolution. What I mean is, trivia will likely become a part of the page eventually.  At least the information ought to be incorporated into the article somewhere if it hasn't been.  But, I'm leaving the article alone for now.  Except for minor grammar/spelling edits, of course. Paul Haymon 07:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * what I meant by not being a trivia directory is that it shouldn't just be a bunch of what are essentially trivial facts relating to Knuckles' fictional "love life" and "personality" and the like. to include a quick mention of his general demeanor, etc, I think, and to include at the end perhaps a brief list of trivia relating to him is acceptable, but to expand upon it ad nauseum is both unnecessary and in disagreement with wiki guidelines.Spankmecold 08:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Words fail me when I try to summarize the recent bout of destructive edits to this article. --DavidHOzAu 10:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Trivia needs to be worked into the article, not trimmed. There Is A Difference.
 * The portuguese wikipedia isn't that big, so the comparison is moot.
 * The point of WP:NOT is to exclude articles where the entire article is a plot summary. It does say that plot summaries can mentioned as part of a larger article.
 * Writing articles from out-of-universe perspective means to give priority to that sort of information over in-universe information; it does not mean to exclude all other types of information.


 * Notable trivia needs worked into the article. Non-notable trivia needs shot on sight. The article needn't be a tiny one page long stub, but it should be a comprehensive overview, not a giant pile of fluff. WP:NOT doesn't apply here, and the last concern is low priority. --tjstrf 11:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * My concern is that recent edits have made the article look far worse than where we were three months ago or even where we were six months ago. Much information has been lost that should've just been rearranged.  The result is that the article is now somewhat disjointed; there was no need for so many extra headings in certain sections when one paragraph flowed into the next.
 * My last point was that information was removed from the article because it was "excessively in-universe", e.g. the character stuff and his history is much shorter. It should've been moved around the article instead of "removing it to another article"; I don't see any extra text about Knuckles in Sonic the Comic or Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie comic).
 * I'd also like to add that Knuckles' super forms have been retconned out of the series and should be treated in past tense only.
 * --DavidHOzAu 11:59, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I beg to differ. There is no canon material to indicate such data.  The only form that could possibly happened to is the Hyper Mode.  Since S3K, Knuckles has never had possesion of all of the emeralds.  By all technical terms, his super form reappeared in Sonic Heroes.  Call it what you want, but the bottom line is that it has the exact same characteristics as a super form, down to the ring drain.  The source of the power is irrelevant as the flickies with Tails were still super, even though Tails started the transformation.  Present tense is suitable as the games are still available.
 * Also, feel free to make re-add the information as you see fit. Grandmastergalvatron
 * Please, we have gone over this before, read upwards...Czin 23:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The page length debate
Why isn't there this much bitching about Sonic's page which is twice as long?GrandMasterGalvatron 13:25, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I guess it's because he's the main character. But I wonder why too. (Somehow I think people just hate Knuckles) UnDeRsCoRe 21:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Whoa, are you the smae GrandMasterGalvatron from SonicAnime.Net? UnDeRsCoRe 21:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There is only one XD. Yes I am. GrandMasterGalvatron 21:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Super Knuckes - who wrote doesn't change color?
Super Knuckles changes to a pinkish color.

Here is a sprite sheet.Starmenclock 19:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, no he doesn't...I don't know how these edits slipped past me! XD If you people haod paid attention to the text before you altered it, you'd notice that by canon, he does NOT change color.  We've even got an image to show that!  Super Knuckles is RED.  He is only pink in Archie canon.  That spritesheet doesn't prove jack because I could make one of a bunch of white Knuckles' and say he turns white.  I could do the same with other transformations.  The darkest color a character is in Super form is their base color.  Sonic's is yellow, Tails' is...whatever color he is, Knuckles' is red, and Metal's is gold.  This is FACT.  If Knuckles was meant to be pink, he'd have stayed that way, just like Sonic stayed yellow. GrandMasterGalvatron 21:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * He doesn't change colour, if by colour you mean hue. He simply glows. --tjstrf 22:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Now that I look at it, those sprites are fake anyway! Super Modes didn't hover until 3d Games (earliest being Sonic the Fighters) and Knuckles doesn't shoot kai blasts. GrandMasterGalvatron 19:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * They're not "fake" - they're just bad recolours ;) -- Wizardry Dragon (Talk to Me) (Support Neutrality on Wikipedia) 22:41, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Some of them are, but there are some fake ones in there ^^ GrandMasterGalvatron 20:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought that super Knuckles was red and glowed, and hyper Knuckles was pink. -- Emerald__Storm 19:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It would make sense, but as he has the same color effect in both forms, it can only be said that they look the same.GrandMasterGalvatron 13:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Unprotection?
This page has been protected for long enough, and hopefully the vandalism has died down, I think this page should be requested for unprotection. I would request unprotection right now, but I'd rather have some opinions from other users on this first before I do so. UnDeRsCoRe 01:07, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, we're still gonna have those godawful page length debates but other than that I suppose so GrandMasterGalvatron 18:47, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

video game appearance section
needs to be cleaned up. I think, rather than break down Knuckles' role in every single installation of the series, an easier format along these lines should be followed:

"GAME" playable/non-playable status

for a summary of the particular installation, the link can be followed. and, given the amount of detail in this wiki, I can't imagine the game wikis being any less detailed. so no need to overinundate.

thanks. Spankmecold 22:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Making a Good Article
Ok. I just fixed up the apperance section and some toher stuff. I'm willing to completely reword this article to be a good one but what else needs to be done? If you're going to use the "shorten" argument, be specific. Give specific examples of what you consider fancruft and why. Just saying shorten it doesn't help at all. GrandMasterGalvatron 17:29, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I think you did a great job by fixing the appearence stuff, it was really redundant. I personally couldn't care less about the length of this article (there are 100's of articles that are longer) but if this is going to be GA, I guess someone should re word and shorten the personality section. It details all of his personalities in all of the continuities but hasn't anyone noticed that he has practically the same personality in ALL CONTINUITIES. Merge it all into one short paragraph. If you want to that is, you don't have to. UnDeRsCoRe 21:09, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of doing that. I'll be sure to do it ^^ GrandMasterGalvatron 21:17, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks! UnDeRsCoRe 21:29, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Arrg! Not that I'm not greatful for the edits, but someone just expanded the Fleetway storyline. Thus, making it longer. I don't really care but, some of those "OMG I HATE THIS LONG ARTICLE" people may be pissed. (Pissed, can I say that here?) UnDeRsCoRe 00:02, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure you can, Wikipedia is not censored... but be careful about it. --DavidHOzAu 11:02, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

A lot of the stuff about abilities is redudndant. If you *ever* want to get Good Article status, condense all the information about thje abilities of different games into two or three concise paragraphs. Figure out what abilities he has in common across all games in one paragraph, and then note all the differences or new abilities he (/she/it?) gains in single games. -- Wizardry Dragon (Talk to Me) (Support Neutrality on Wikipedia) 20:20, 22 October 2006 (UTC)