Talk:Kobe Bryant/Archive 4

Main
Regarding this statement:

"In 2003, Bryant made headlines when he was accused of sexual assault at a ski resort in Eagle, Colorado. In September 2004, the judge dismissed all charges on Bryant after the accuser declined to testify. The suit was ultimately settled in civil court."

They were two seperate cases. It should read:

"In 2003, Bryant made headlines when he was accused of sexual assault at a ski resort in Eagle, Colorado. In September 2004, the judge dismissed all charges on Bryant after the accuser declined to testify. A seperate civil suit brought by the accuser was ultimately settled out of court."

Alldayallnight20 (talk) 14:35, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ Done  howcheng  {chat} 00:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Player Profile
Shouldn't their be information about his low career fg% to make the section NPOV? 69.148.158.112 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 06:00, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

That sounds right. His shooting percentage of 45% is the league average, which should be noted.--Fact finder 1780 (talk) 19:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Lead image
Anyone mind if we moved Image:NikeTaipeiFlagshipStoreLaunch KobeBryant.jpg to the infobox? The free throw image is kind of blurry and you can't really see his face.  howcheng  {chat} 00:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

2008 MVP ?
I understand that Kobe is not going to get MVP this year because he sucks if Yao Ming wasnt injured he would be MVP am I correct?

Un saludo de España. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.137.56.95 (talk) 21:22, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Probably should wait until it's officially announced by the NBA. There was a report from the LA Times that Kobe will be the MVP.  Enigma  message 22:32, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Im pretty sure it has been offically announced. Also, 85.137.56.95, wikipedia is not a soap box, so non-improvement related talk is not allowed, and on a personal note, Yao wasnt even close to being in the running, even if he didn't get injured, chris paul would of got it if kobe didn't. 69.148.158.112 (talk) 04:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Kobe refusing to play for the Charlotte Hornets upon being drafted.
In the past few weeks, someone has been editing out the fact that Kobe refused to play for the Charlotte Hornets upon being drafted. I just wanted to add in some proof that Kobe refused to play for anyone but the Los Angeles Lakers in the 1996 NBA draft.

http://select.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/sports/29roberts.html?_r=2&ref=sports&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Bryant foreshadowed his gall. In 1996, Bryant, a teenager exiting high school for the N.B.A., was not the first pick, but he exuded self-importance when he refused to play anywhere but Hollywood.

With the 13th selection, with a deal to trade Bryant to Los Angeles in pocket, Charlotte chose him. But there was a point where it looked as if the Lakers’ Vlade Divac would retire rather than take part in a trade that would send him to Charlotte for Bryant.

Couldn’t Bryant be a Hornet? Could he grow to love Southern sweet tea?

“That is an impossibility,” Bryant’s agent, Arn Tellem, said at the time. “There are no ifs. It would not happen. He is going to be a Laker, and that’s the only team he’s playing for.”

Bryant got what he wanted.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/news/2001/05/26/sayitaintso_lakers/

We know there are some 5-year-olds who will think we're crazy for saying this, but wasn't it a bummer the day the Lakers traded good old Vlade?

Of course, history will remember it differently.

But at the time, it stank of a high school kid declaring his dream to play in the NBA ... but only for the Lakers. Bryant basically strong-armed his way out of Charlotte instead of thanking the Hornets for spending a 13th overall pick on a teenager. He seemed to be giving off a vibe that only a city like L.A. was big enough to hold him.

Who knew he'd be right?

And poor Vlade. He threatened retirement before moving to Charlotte. He loved living in L.A. Nobody was dropping bombs on his home and his wife was an aspiring actress. He even pulled off the memorable line, "I am no longer irritating" in a shaving cream ad. He finally relented after talking with Hornets management and agreed to the trade.

For your reference, the original Wiki article on Bryant's 1996 draft situation is right here:

http://www.bballone.com/kobeb/kobebryantbio.html

Before he was chosen as the 13th overall draft pick by the Charlotte Hornets in 1996, the 17-year-old Bryant had made a lasting impression on then-Lakers general manager Jerry West, who immediately foresaw potential in Bryant's basketball ability during pre-draft workouts. He went on to state that Bryant's workouts were some of the best he had seen. Immediately after the draft, Bryant expressed that he did not wish to play for the Hornets and wanted to play for the Lakers instead. Fifteen days later, West traded his starting center, Vlade Divac to the Hornets for the young Kobe Bryant.

If we can at least verify that Kobe Bryant is similar to athletes like John Elway and Eli Manning in the sense that they refused to play for the teams that drafted them and demanded to be traded, I think it would be much more effectual. I have more links/proof that Kobe did this if needed, but I figured Sports Illustrated and The NY Times would be more credible sources. Thank you very much, and any further way that would help to contribute this information would be appreciated. Bonndiablo (talk) 18:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonndiablo (talk • contribs) 18:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

That's fine to add since it is factual, however you need to properly site such information when you do so in order to avoid controversy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fact finder 1780 (talk • contribs) 06:53, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. I included both footnotes in the article (the SI/NY times ones). Thank you for your help! Bonndiablo (talk) 17:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Kobe is full of himself and cant pass.

Anuj —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mohil123 (talk • contribs) 20:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand that some people don't like to read that Kobe refused to play for the Charlotte Hornets (the team that drafted him). If you have any evidence showing the contrary, please don't be afraid to point it out! If you have no such evidence, please stop editing my additions. If you feel that my edits on this matter are too POV (I'm sorry that Kobe demanded to only play for the Lakers upon turning pro) please instruct me how I can include the fact that Kobe refused to play for the team that drafted him and demanded to play for the LA Lakers. I'm starting to think that Kobe's behavior in the 1996 draft is the biggest kept secret in the world!(lol). Thank you very much! Bonndiablo (talk) 15:23, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * When editing on Wikipedia, be prepared to source all your information from reliable sources. That being said, if you looked carefully at the history the POV statement I removed was "West wanted Kobe so much that" and the term "Fittingly."  I looked through the article to see if there was a mention of how "bad" Jerry wanted Kobe and there was none.  Did West want Kobe? Of course he did, but this can be said with neutral tones.  The other edits I made were inserting fact tags, such as the one I just recently added for a quote with no source. Zodiiak (talk) 03:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Hey Zodiiak, the Art Tellum quote you were looking for was in fact in one of the references given in the (1996 draft) section. I have added it again as a reference in the place you asked for one (http://select.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/sports/29roberts.html?_r=2&ref=sports&oref=slogin&oref=slogin, 11th paragraph/line down). Once again I have other references but I figured Sports Illustrated and The NY Times would be the most reliable sources especially on an issue such as this one. I have no problem with you removing the "West wanted Kobe so much that" and the term "Fittingly" and I feel it makes the article stronger with your changes (for your reference, these phrases/terms come from an earlier version of this wikipedia article on the 1996 draft found here (http://www.bballone.com/kobeb/kobebryantbio.html) . Once again I would like to thank Chrishomingtang for his help on the 1996 Draft section and I encourage anybody else to come up with any extra facts they can to contribute to the discussion.

My main purpose is to show that Kobe and his agent Art Tellum did demand to play for the Los Angeles Lakers and refused to play for the team that drafted him (the Charlotte Hornets) during the 1996 draft period. A lot of people throughout the web are always looking for "proof" that this actually was the case and I just wanted to make the issue clear. As always, if you have any other information on the subject, don't be afraid to post it here (I'm always interested to see it!) Bonndiablo (talk) 05:09, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Nickname?
How come there isn't a "Nickname" section in the infoboxes for basketball players? Infoboxes for hockey players have one (eg. Wayne Gretzky). Kobe's nickname, as you all probably know, is "The Black Mamba". Should we include nicknames in the infoboxes for basketball players? Ytred (talk) 18:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The nickname parameter is deleted per consensus on the NBA Wikiproject discussion that it is often abused by ip users. It was agreed that any notable nickname should be mention within the article text. If you want, you are welcomed to add that to the lead paragraph, given that it is well referenced. Hopefully, that answers your concern. — Chris!  c t 19:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't know that. Thank you very much for telling me! Ytred (talk) 23:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

redunant info
Ramblinmindblues keeps adding redunant information, Clearly something has to be done, I don't understand why he keeps doing this. Buddha24 (talk) 02:36, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * What redundant info? Could you be more specific about what you find redundant? Thank you. Ramblinmindblues (talk) 03:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * With all due respect, I believe you know exactly what I'm talking about, . Buddha24 (talk) 06:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I’m asking for clarification about what exactly you find “redundant” and why.


 * You blanked out a cited paragraph about Kobe Bryant’s sexual assault allegation on May 25 without stating your reasoning. I asked you to explain yourself on the talk page, but you didn’t. Then you blanked out the same sentences again the next day and wrote “redunant information,” without explaining on the talk page what exactly you found “redunant.”  Could you please clarify? Thanks. Ramblinmindblues (talk) 06:20, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

GA quick fail
I am quick failing this article because of the presence of a cleanup banner that has been present since June 2007. This is one of the quick fail criteria. Please address the concerns raised by this banner before renominating the article. Best wishes, GaryColemanFan (talk) 03:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

This article isn't even close to being a GA anyways. It's riddled with POV and doesn't follow the NBA Wikiproject's guidelines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squaty squater (talk • contribs) 06:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Point of view statements are definitely a problem in this article. The references are also improperly formatted, and the Taipei Store Launch image needs a better caption. Grammar and Manual of Style compliance are also problems, and the article definitely needs copyediting. For example: "Bryant, finished the year with ten 50-plus point games[15] becoming the only player other than Chamberlain in 1961-62 and 1962-63 to do it in one season, and won his second straight scoring title." (1) There shouldn't be a comma after "Bryant", (2) the reference needs to go after punctuation, (3) the hyphens need to be replaces with en dashes, (4) the phrasing is awkward, (5) there should not be a comma after "season", and (6) there should be a reference at the end of the sentence (and possibly two, since it discusses both Chamberlain's statistics and the NBA scoring title). The article also refers to him as "Kobe" rather than "Bryant" and Shaquille O'Neal as "Shaq" rather than "O'Neal". GaryColemanFan (talk) 05:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that the article needs a lot of work. I just did a major overhaul, going through most of the article and making various corrections.  Enigma  message 06:03, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Bryant's individual scoring accomplishments posted resulted in the finest statistical season of his career." Unsure how that reads. "...posted resulted..."?  Enigma  message 14:10, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Dates
Whoever is putting on the dates, can you please stop. $Annoyomous24$ (talk) 16:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Chock full of POV
Could someone please slap this article with one of those disputed neutrality tags please, as I appear to not have that luxury? Virtually every other statement in this article is POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squaty squater (talk • contribs) 20:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * “He was awarded the season's MVP in the 2007-08 NBA season after leading his team to the 2008 NBA Playoffs as the first seed in the Western Conference.”
 * Why in the world is the italic part of this sentence POV? Those are just straight facts, the Lakers were #1 seeds in the 2008 NBA Playoffs. —Bender235 (talk) 10:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

"leading a team" is blatant POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squaty squater (talk • contribs) 08:41, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


 * He did lead his team to the finals. That is not a POV at all because it is a fact. Just like MJ led the Bulls to six championships.— Chris!  c t 19:39, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Negative. Please explain how you can prove that one player has "led" a team to anything. Teams win games, not individuals. Teams win championships, not individuals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squaty squater (talk • contribs) 07:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Teams win, and teams are led.  Enigma  message 07:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Teams are led by a coach, that is correct. By the way, you are deluded if you think that one example is the only thing at hand in the dispute.


 * Teams may be led by a coach, they also may be led by players. Have you ever heard of players being named captain? You are blatantly POV-pushing.  Enigma  message 07:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

That does not mean that a team was "led" by any player. They are led by a coach. If you look at other NBA player articles throughout Wikipedia, they do not refer to players as leading their respective teams. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squaty squater (talk • contribs) 18:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The consensus here is that the sentence is not POV. Please stop going against consensus.— Chris!  c t 20:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Kobe was team captain, the leading scorer, lead the team in assists and is the consensus leader of the team which was made apparent by his own interviews and those of his teammates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.74.233.194 (talk) 09:10, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Please, there is no consensus on anything. What are you talking about, two people? Ha, and besides, this isn't about one sentence, it's about the whole article, which fails to follow NPOV or any of the NBA's Wikiproject guidelines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squaty squater (talk • contribs) 00:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow, please stop edit-warring already. No one agrees with you. Consensus is the four people or so who have reverted you.  Enigma  message 01:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Just a note to the editors involved. It is suspected that User:Squaty squater is a sockpuppet of banned user User:TyrusThomas4lyf. See Long_term_abuse for more detail.— Chris!  c t 02:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * linky  Enigma  message 20:32, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The statement that Kobe Bryant was the player-leader of the team is POV; why not attribute such a statement to one of many who have said so? It can be argued (even with a questionable degree of truth) that Kobe Bryant took a far smaller leadership role than did Phil Jackson for the season. Citations and attributions are what this article needs.--66.32.230.227 (talk) 06:40, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Kobe in Italy
Kobe didn't play much soccer in Italy, but mainly basketball in the junior teams of Reggio Emilia (where his father played). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.133.111.119 (talk) 12:04, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

He has so strong links with Italy he promised if he doesn't win at Beijing he will rename Kobe Giovanni and he will must live in Italy...213.140.17.100 (talk) 11:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the first one shouldn't be added on the article while I want the second one on. The reference to the second statement is right here. -- K. Annoyomous  24  19:47, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Deleting cited material
Chrishomingtang continues to delete cited material without stating his reasoning. The paragraph reads as follows:

''Bryant suffered another embarrassment when it was revealed that the NBA star likes to ejaculate on his partner’s face. During the investigation, Eagle County police interviewed Bryant, who said he stopped having intercourse with his accuser after asking her if he could ejaculate on her face, and she said no. Bryant said “that’s when I asked if I could cum in her face, she said no.” When the investigator asked him if he always liked to cum on his partner’s face, Bryant sounded embarrassed, stating “That’s my thing, not always, I mean, so I stopped. Jesus Christ man (inaudible).” Bryant also admitted to using this particular sex act with his mistress “Michelle.”''

The quotes are cited from the actual transcript of Bryant's interview with police, which can be found here.

Chrishomingtang: if you would explain your reasoning, then maybe I can understand why you deleted the paragraph. Otherwise I can only assume you intend to conceal cited information. CinnamonCowgirl (talk) 21:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for at least starting a discussion. My only problem with this addition is the reliability of the source. A quick look at that website makes me think that it is an unreliable source. The criteria for what is a reliable source is on WP:RS.


 * Also some of the material you added are not based on the source. For instance, you added "Bryant suffered another embarrassment when it was revealed that the NBA star likes to ejaculate on his partner’s face." But no where on the source shows us that particular statement is true. This kind of personal interpretation is prohibited because it is original research.


 * In the meantime, I will wait for others to weigh in before deciding on whether this should remain in the article.— Chris!  c t 21:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The transcript is a public document. And "the smoking gun" is a reliable source for public documents. I think you should read the “Affidavit in Support of Arrest,” in which Detective Winters states that Bryant said he enjoyed ejaculating on his partner's face and that is was "[his] thing." That's where this first sentence comes from, but maybe it could be tailored to just those facts. CinnamonCowgirl (talk) 21:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * That IS the transcript from Kobe Bryant's police interview. It's a public document. “That’s when I asked if I could cum in her face, she said no.” And “That’s my thing, not always, I mean, so I stopped. Jesus Christ man (inaudible)" are accurate per the police transcript. Ramblinmindblues (talk) 21:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I propose this paragraph be included:


 * During the investigation, Bryant also told police that ejaculating on his partner's face was his "thing." Eagle County police interviewed Bryant, who said he stopped having intercourse with his accuser after asking her if he could ejaculate on her face, and she said no. Bryant said “that’s when I asked if I could cum in her face, she said no.” When the investigator asked him if he always liked to cum on his partner’s face, Bryant sounded embarrassed, stating “That’s my thing, not always, I mean, so I stopped. Jesus Christ man (inaudible).” Bryant also admitted to using this particular sex act with his mistress “Michelle.”


 * This mainatins POV, while being tailored to the transcipt and “Affidavit in Support of Arrest” CinnamonCowgirl (talk) 21:51, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The sentence "Bryant also admitted to using this particular sex act with his mistress “Michelle.”" is also not based on the source.— Chris!  c t 21:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, I've read those documents and don't see that either. That should be removed unless you have another RELIABLE source to back it up. Though I don't see a problem with the rest of it. Ramblinmindblues (talk) 22:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Alright, I've removed that part. It would read as follows:
 * During the investigation, Bryant also told police that ejaculating on his partner's face was his "thing." Eagle County police interviewed Bryant, who said he stopped having intercourse with his accuser after asking her if he could ejaculate on her face, and she said no. Bryant said “that’s when I asked if I could cum in her face, she said no.” When the investigator asked him if he always liked to cum on his partner’s face, Bryant sounded embarrassed, stating “That’s my thing, not always, I mean, so I stopped. Jesus Christ man (inaudible).” CinnamonCowgirl (talk) 22:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You should include this news article to substantiate the quotes. Ramblinmindblues (talk) 22:07, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm adding this to the article:
 * During the investigation, Bryant also told police that ejaculating on his partner's face was his "thing." Eagle County police interviewed Bryant, who said he stopped having intercourse with his accuser after asking her if he could ejaculate on her face, and she said no. Bryant said “that’s when I asked if I could cum in her face, she said no.” When the investigator asked him if he always liked to cum on his partner’s face, Bryant sounded embarrassed, stating “That’s my thing, not always, I mean, so I stopped. Jesus Christ man (inaudible).”
 * Does this sound alright? Ramblinmindblues (talk) 22:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * What are the other sources? I'll add them... CinnamonCowgirl (talk) 22:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It should read something like this. "In 2004, the 57-page transcript of Bryant's police interview was leaked to the media. During the investigation, Bryant told Eagle County police that ejaculating on his partner's face was his "thing." At the time, he asked the accuser if he "could cum in her face, she said no.” He claimed that he stopped having intercourse with his accuser after she refused his request. When the investigator asked him if he always liked to cum on his partner’s face, Bryant sounded embarrassed, stating “That’s my thing, not always, I mean, so I stopped. Jesus Christ man (inaudible).”" Any thoughts?— Chris!  c t 22:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounds fine to me. Should something be included about "Michelle." He said he used the same sex position with Michelle, but doesn't specicifically mention ejaculating on her face. From the CBS article


 * Bryant: "Um, yes, with one other person. And she could actually testify I do that um, I do the same thing, I hold her from the back, I put my hands (inaudible)."
 * Loya: "And who's that other person?"
 * Bryant: "Her name is Michelle."
 * Loya: "And this is somebody you frequent or one time incident or ...?"
 * Bryant: "No. She's a, she's a frequent (inaudible)."


 * This is an article before the transcript went public.  Ramblinmindblues (talk) 22:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Feel free to add to it.— Chris!  c t 22:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but how is that relevant? The fact that Kobe enjoys "ejaculating" on his partner's face -- what does it have to do with anything?  Can someone please justify it's purpose in the article?  Zodiiak (talk) 23:26, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Does not belong in the article. Patently ridiculous.  Enigma  message 04:41, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * This was actually the focal issue of the sexual assault investigation. The “Affidavit in Support of Arrest” specifically notes that Bryant said ejaculating on his partner’s face was his “thing.” Kobe claimed that he asked the young woman if he could ejaculate on her face.  And when she said no, he stopped having intercourse with her and never ejaculated because he didn’t have a condom.  The accuser claimed that he asked whether she “liked it if a guy came on [her] face” and then she refused and was able to free herself.  In a letter correcting her original statements to police, the accuser said Bryant’s actual wording was “Do you like it when a black (m.f.) comes on your face?”  This became such an important issue because if the accuser felt forced and under the control of Bryant: 1. why would Bryant even ask? 2. how did she summon the courage to refuse if she felt under his control? 3. why didn’t he go through with it, as both said he didn’t. Ramblinmindblues (talk) 08:36, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Still not relevant to the article.  Enigma  message 11:43, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There's an article on the sexual assault allegations. Maybe CowGirl can edit war to get the ejaculation/facial stuff there instead of here.  Enigma  message 11:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

2008 Finals
Should add the recent 2008 NBA finals results: Despite being the league MVP, having legendary coach Phil Jackson (9 titles), and being surrounded by all-star caliber talent Kobe was outplayed by 2008 Finals MVP Paul Pierce and the Lakers were completely dismantled by the Boston Celtics in 6 games. Kobe and company allowed both the largest comeback in NBA Finals history in Game 4 (24 points) and the largest margin of victory in a series clinching game in NBA Finals history in Game 6 (39 points). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drinky McLiquorshot (talk • contribs) 19:01, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Now that's what I call POV.  Enigma  message 19:19, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Quite; it has "ARGH I CAN'T BELIEVE KOBE LOST" just bursting out of its subtext. The general feel of this article is as though it's one of those NBA video dramas that sort of says "He did this, now aren't you impressed?!" It seems too POV for an encyclopedia article.--66.32.230.227 (talk) 06:46, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Correction needed regarding the location of the alleged sexual assault.
"In 2003, Bryant made headlines when he was accused of sexual assault at a ski resort in Eagle, Colorado by a hotel employee."

The Lodge and Spa at Cordillera is not a ski resort, and it is located in Edwards, Colorado, not Eagle, Colorado. Eagle is the county seat and is the location of the courthouse where the trial took place.

(Further) The Lodge and Spa at Cordillera is a 56 room, four-diamond resort that, as of May 31, 2008, is no longer associated with Vail Resorts or RockResorts. It is owned by Behringer Harvard, and recently managed by CWE Hospitality out of St. Louis, Missouri. The Lodge is approximately 20 minutes away from the ski resort Beaver Creek, thus the affirmation that it is a ski resort is somewhat incorrect. The Lodge also has four golf courses, and is a summer destination as well as a winter one.

Telarium (talk) 06:20, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I will take a look and fix if needed. Thanks,  Enigma  message 06:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Biased Info and redundant info
The Wikipedia entry for Kobe Bryant is biased. The rape allegations make it in the introduction and another section later in the entry and there are various other mentions in the article that portray Kobe in a negative light; however, no other basketball player has equal criticism for their mistakes.

Among many other examples I can give:

Kevin Garnett punched two of his teammates. Paul Pierce didn't join team huddles or even look at head coach Doc Rivers in the 06-07 season. Michael Jordan cheated on his wife, punched teammates, has a gambling problem, has abused teammates. Magic Johnson said at one time to either fire the coach or trade him. Larry Bird would tell people how many points he would score and where he would shoot his shots. He also shot left-handed in a game because he wanted to.

Yet none of these mistakes or bad behavior are mentioned in any of their Wikipedia entries. Kobe's image is being manipulated by Wikipedia; the entry fools people into believing it's an unbiased entry but shows Kobe in a more negative light. The same "duty" to input all facts about a person are not being included for the negative acts these aforementioned players have committed. Either the negative acts of Kobe should be deleted to be fair, or the entries should be treated equally and those mistakes and bad behavior should be mentioned in the first paragraph of those players entries and in another section of those entries like every single negative thing is mentioned about Kobe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.177.84.77 (talk) 06:58, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think your bias toward Kobe himself is being shown with what your asking in relation to the above. The rape allegations were one of the most newsworthy prints at the time it occured and it had the whole nation buzzing and it will always remain important in relation to his life which is why it remains in the first section. Compare this major crime accusation with Pierce not joining huddles in the 06-07 season? Magic threatning to fire the coach or trade him? This is minute in comparison.  Monster Under Your Bed  (talk) 07:03, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

So are Wikipedia entries suppossed to be about what makes more news headlines, or are they supposed to be about the true history of a person? How do you define how newsworthy something is before it allowed to be included in a Wikipedia entry? If the Wikipedia entry is suppossed to be about the true history of a person, which I think it should, there should not be this bias where only negative information on Kobe is mentioned but not the true negative acts of other players which also made news.71.177.84.77 (talk) 14:49, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe that the rape allegations should be moved somehwere down in the article since bryant WAS NOT ACTUALLY CONVICTED OF ANYTHING. This is an encyclopedia, and accusations in general are speculative. Speculative information should not be in the headline of a biography. This is among the reasons why wikipedia is not respected in academia as a legit source. 71.114.41.153 (talk) 23:50, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that it should be moved somewhere outside of the lead and intro. This is consistent with other articles about people in with similar controversies. Does anyone else have any input on this? If not, I will move it soon. --DerRichter (talk) 20:02, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

New Profile Image

 * -- $user log (talk) 02:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Concern over sources listed
Hello, I'm glad you guys have this article developing. Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far. After looking it over, I have some concerns over several of the sources used in this article. Some of them are simply not fit for an encyclopedia article, some are borderline, and others need to be discussed.

"Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Reliable sources are necessary both to substantiate material within articles and to give credit to authors and publishers in order to avoid plagiarism and copyright violations."

"Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking. Such sources include websites and publications that express views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, are promotional in nature, or rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used as sources about themselves as described below. "


 * (Note: The source Numbers #s will probably change as modifications are added/deleted.)


 * Source #8 
 * Soccer.com Link is currently broken but is supposed to link to : http://www.soccer.com/blog/2006/08/kobe_dreams_of_soccer.blog, basically its a soccer site, with a blog, the author is "Soccer365.com", Do I need to say more? The sentence its supposed to back up is : "At an early age, he learned to play soccer and at first his favorite team was AC Milan", is that really necessary?


 * Source #10
 * connectseward.org http://www.connectseward.org/shs/students/students08/comp3/blazenovak/Kobe%20Bryant%20Website/Biography.htm, if you go the site the first thing you realize is how "amateurish" it looks. The fonts are huge, theres too many pictures, and by looking at the url, its probably a student site.


 * Source #15
 * barrytickets.com -- http://www.barrystickets.com/lakers/lakers-players/kobe-bryant.php, Site is riddled with advertisements selling tickets. The article has no author's name clearly visible. It backs up : "During his first season, Bryant mostly came off the bench behind guards Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel". I'm not disputing whether he did or didn't, I'm disputing the source.


 * Source #16
 * Another blog, http://nba-dunks.blogspot.com/2006/02/1997-nba-slam-dunk-contest.html hosted at blogspot with no author. I think the records of the 1997 NBA Slam Dunk Contest could easily be found elsewhere.
 * ✅ — LOL T/C 22:43, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Source #17
 * superiorpics.com, Advertisement everywhere! http://www.superiorpics.com/kobe_bryant/, Theres an advertisement on the right selling thongs! Most of the content seems to be celebrity related.


 * Source #21
 * astrotheme.fr http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/portraits/57xAX7erQ9Yw.htm, Astrology??? as a News Source? The first half seems to have solid summaries of his career, but the bottom is filled astrological traits. A section is tittled : "The dominant planets of Kobe BRYANT", another "Elements, modalities and polarities for Kobe BRYANT", etc.
 * I removed it because it was a copy of Wikipedia's article used to back up the original. — LOL T/C 22:43, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Source #31
 * armchairgm.com http://www.armchairgm.com/Kobe_Bryant, It doesn't look as bad as the other sources before it. At the bottom it has 2 references to msnbc & espn, maybe we should consider using those instead.
 * ✅ It's mostly an old copy of Wikipedia's article and the two references are worthless. — LOL T/C 22:43, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Source #32
 * kobebryant4u.info http://www.kobebryant4u.info/, the site doesn't work and it appears to be a domain holding site. The name indicates that it was probably a fan site of some sort. extension: .info
 * ✅ — LOL T/C 22:43, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Source #36
 * girlstalksports.com http://www.girlstalksports.com/Basketball/NBA/Kobe-Bryant-has-knee-surgery-and-unlikely-for-World-Basketball-Championships-200607161215/The site itself doesn't look too bad, however I don't know if it would be considered a reliable news source.
 * ✅ — LOL T/C 22:43, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Source #37
 * authenticbasketball.com' http://www.authenticbasketball.com/top_players/kobe_bryant.htm, I actually don't know what to do about this site. I think I'll let you guys make the call on it. It has many allot of stats and seems to look decent but couldn't we replace it?


 * Source #55
 * lakersuniverse.com http://www.lakersuniverse.com/kobe/top_scoring_games.htm, lots of stats here. However, it Seems like the site would have a conflict of interest? Wouldn't Nba.com, basketball-reference, or some other site keep the same numbers?


 * Source #78
 * kb24.com -- https://www.kb24.com/news/article/687.html, I think this might be Bryant's official site. I think this site might be okay, its only used to reference that Kobe has/had some type of tv show.


 * Source #80
 * hoopshype.com http://hoopshype.com/players/kobe_bryant.htm, couldn't we get the same info from his NBA.com profile?


 * Source #82
 * wiki.answers http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_holds_the_NBA_record_for_three_pointers_made_in_a_game This site should be removed! It is nowhere near a legitimate source, there should be no contest on this one.
 * ✅ — LOL T/C 22:43, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Source #89
 * earchive.org & eonline http://web.archive.org/web/20060219203516/http://www.eonline.com/On/Holly/Shows/Bryant/facts.html The site seems to be an archive of Eonline (E-Hollywood Story), E! is known for being celebrity focused and leans more towards being a taloid.


 * Source #90
 * (See above), except in this case it archives allstarz.hollywood.com, allstars? hollywood? tabloid?


 * Source #91
 * contactlist http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/shaq%20is%20a%20dad%20six%20minutes%20after%20kobe_02_05_2006, I don't know about this one, doesn't seem so bad, but it only has a tiny paragraph.


 * Source #97
 * www2.kb24.com, I think this kobe site. (see #78), again I think this is probably ok. Just wana run it by you guys.


 * '''Source #104,107,109,110,112,113.
 * lakerstats.com http://www.lakerstats.com/records/indreg.php?category=fgm, lots of stats, but it seems like it would be biased. Look at the name. -- $user log (talk) 10:54, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I note your concerns but one point on the last source about Lakerstats. Yes it looks biased but they are stats as in facts. They are telling the truth about his stats, i dont really know where you can get an unbiased source to state all the info. when they are all truth, nothing more, nothing else. No opinions, no comment, just stats. And yes kb24.com is his official website.  Monster Under Your Bed  (talk) 10:49, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think your right, Lakerstats & Kb24 are probably acceptable, I just wanted to include them so they could be discussed and see what others thought. -- $user log (talk) 10:54, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The last two are acceptable. Using his site as a source is fine, depending on the information, of course. What better way to get his position?  Enigma  message 19:05, 25 July 2008 (UTC)