Talk:Kochi/Archive 1

Formatting problem
Can someone correct the formating problem on this page near the Indic text box? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thunderboltz (talk • contribs) 17:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Corrected thunderboltz 05:48, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

History of Kochi dated back at least to early 1400
In this article, Kochi dated back only to 1500s

The following paragraphy about history of Kochi in the early 1400s was deleted by by Deepujoseph for no good reason.

"The history of Kochi(Chinese 柯枝) dated back to early 15th century. During the Yong Le era of Ming Dynasty, Admiral Zheng He and his treasure fleet visited Kochi. Their visits were documented by on board Arab language translators Ma Huan,Fei Xin and Gong Zheng,each one of them published a book documented their visits to variou countries, including Kochi.(There is an English translation of Ma Huan’s book Ying yai sheng lan (The Overall survey of the ocean shores）.


 * The name of the king of Kochi was Koyili,he was a buddhist.
 * The main product of Kochi was pepper.The rich merchants or chetti of Kochi, collected pepper from local farmers and exchange them with arab merchants for pearls, coral and spice, then in turn wait for the arrival of Zheng He's fleet to trade for porcelain and silk.
 * In 1405 King Koyili sent envoy Vanjatar(完者塔儿)to pay tribute to Emperor Zhu Di of Ming Empire.
 * In 1412 King Koyili sent envoy to Ming Court a second time, requested a formal Imperial instituion of a mountain in Kochi.
 * In 1416 Emperor Zhu Di formally instituted king Koyili as "King of Kochi". The Emperor also instituted a mountain in Kochi as National Guardian Mountain (镇国山), with institution poem (in 16 stanzas, 64 Chinese characters )written by Emperor Zhu Di himself inscribed on a stone tablet as Imperial present."

In doing so, Deepujoseph had truncated the history of Kochi. If the history of Kochi began in the 1500s, then Kochi should called Cochin, the Portugese name.

It was a fact of history that Kochi did payed tribute to Emperor Yong Le. But the so called tributary system was mostly symbolic, in exchange for protection of Ming Emperor, the king retained full control of his country, unlike settlement where foreign power had full control

Reference: Ma Huan: Ying Yai Sheng Lan, the overall survey of the ocean's shores ISBN 974 8496 78-3

Being the two largest and most ancient countries in Asia, there is strong historical links bewteen India and China. As is well known, the influence of Budhism in China is immense thru the pilgrimage of Xuan Zang in Tang dynasty, in the same period, the Emperor of Tang also sent envoy to Magadha to learn the method of making refined sugar. The second period of close contact was during the Ming dynasty when Zheng He and his fleet visited Calicut, Kochi, India and many other places in India. The history of these visits were well documented in the books by Xuan Zang and Ma Huan. Scholars in Indian History acknowledge the importance of Xuan Zang and Ma Huan as important primary sources of ancient history of India. Indian history cannot be complete without reference to Xuan Zang and Ma Huan.

Gisling 06:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I deleted it because there was no reference whatsoever, of such an elaborate Chineese history for Kochi, even on the government of India site. The history of Kochi before the arrival of the Portuguese is obscure according to all the sources I checked. I dont deny the arrival of the Chineese and Arabs on the shores of Kochi. The Chineese fishing nets, and the chineese like name of the place, is testimony to it. I removed the content for ethical reasons only. Now that you have provided an ISBN number to the book, you may add that part of History too.

Thank you for your understanding.

I am the translator of several articles about India in the Zh:wikipedia, including Calicut, Kochi, Uttarapatha, working on the translation of Magadha. Gisling 13:58, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Cochin Stock Exchange.
Someone Please add some info(atleast a 1 liner) on cochin stock exchange.i dont have much info about it.after adding,pls delete this comment.Thank you.
 * I've added a reference. Thanks for pointing it out. thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu _ Joseph 11:22, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Map problem
How is it that Trivandrum, the capital of the state is missing from the map? Great !! --Altruist 07:00, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Because Kochi is larger than Trivandrum, and the map is about India's largest cities, not it's capitals. &mdash;Khoikhoi 07:05, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * So dont try to project any city u favour ..be it Khoikhoi or thunderbolt --Altruist 07:58, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * That didn't make any sense. Please rephrase yourself. &mdash;Khoikhoi 08:03, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * When you show a map you are supposed to show the capital city .If you dont know this basic fact please dont argue again.And please dont make false claims anymore .Pleae show me atleast one link which shows Kochi corporation to be bigger than that of Trivandrum. --Altruist 08:17, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The map is of the largest cities of India. And here's your link. &mdash;Khoikhoi 08:20, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, if you look, you'll notice that more capitals are missing from that map. Where is Raipur or Bhubaneswar or Gangtok or Shimla or Aizawl or Agartala or the many other sate capitals? Because you see things with only one eye, it seems that only TVM was removed from the map. -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu _ Joseph 10:06, 24 April 2006 (UTC)~

Are those cities shown in the major official sites ?http://www.southernrailway.org/city/facility.asp, they consider only Thiruvananthapuram from the state.CHENNAI ,MUMBAI ,PUNE ,NEW NELHI ,HYDERABAD ,KOLKATA ,BANGLORE ,TRIVANDRUM are included.

Also please http://www.airportsindia.org.in/aai/airports-frame.htm like that many ones..

Guys do not pretend..That is not the comparison. Compare coimbatore vs chennai as equivalent to Kochi vs Trivandrum --Sathyalal 06:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

A city with length from Palarivattom to Thoppumpady and a narrow breadth(because of this it is only 87 sq km) from Marine drive to Vytila

is smaller than

A city with length from Thiruvallom to Sreekaryam and breadth from Airport to Vattiyoorkavu.( I only used the approved city limits, not even Technopark, which is big hub)

To understand this no body needs great wisdom. Go to South railway station in Kochi, go to the police aid-post and ask for a pre-paid auto. The police man(Not the Autowallah! Offcourse) will say, “Up to Palarivattom you have to pay 34 Rs and rest you have to pay 1 ½ of the charge since it is out of city limits”. Also walk to the city corporation office and enquire the clerk, how many counsel members(which are based on population) they have.

Now how come all official maps are not missing Thiruvananathapuram, but Kochi? only here it is vice versa.

Look at prominance given in official sites--Sathyalal 06:09, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Resident of Kochi
Resident of kochi is called a Kochite???? Never heard of that word before Bharatveer 04:16, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Residents of Kochi are reffered to as Kochiites (two i's). It occurs frequently in the new indian express, and I believe the word is their creation too. link -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu _ Joseph

I still feel that should not be a reason for including that statement in an encyclopedia article like this one.Bharatveer 17:42, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * A resident of Bombay is called a Bombayite. (quoted from the Mumbai page). The statement here is analogous to that. Besides, the papers (the metro/'city express' supplements of the Hindu  and the New Indian Express) use the word frequently too. Its a gender-neutralised transalation of the Malayalam words kochikaran/Kochikari. Do you think the line should be removed? Comments anyone? --  thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu _ Joseph 04:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't think line has to be removed. It's a common term widely used in the press for sure. keep. --anirudh 04:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Kennedy Airport Sanctuary
The article says that the copper tablets presented to the cochin Jews in ancient times were shipped to the Kennedy Airport Sanctuary. However I couldnt find one reference to this statement anywhere. Also, my preliminary analysis has reached to the conclusion that there isnt even a sanctuary at the John F. Kennedy International Airport. Does anyone have any objections to removing this statement? Or better, can somebody provide a reference? -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu _ Joseph 07:31, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

South Indian world view
Why is there a mention of "south indian " world view in this article? Is it any different from Indian world view???Bharatveer 10:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, indeed. See this map. -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu _ Joseph 10:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Must be true :) since it is coming from germany.Bharatveer 12:19, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I have added citation needed tag for that sentence.Bharatveer 12:37, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Much of the weltanschauung map is based on the seminal work of Benjamin Lee Whorf at the MIT of what is known as the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. Indeed south Indian weltanschauung is distinct from other weltanschauung for the simple reason that the linguistic family (in terms of the underlying syntactic-grammar of language) is distinct from other language family. the role of language and thought has been elaborated by the MIT cognitive psychologist Lera Boroditsky and the psycholinguist Stephen Levinson at the Max Planck Institute in Europe. The relationship between people, populations and language is also studied in the landmark researches of Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza on language and genetics known as population dynamics. It is found in the landmark works by Cavalli-Sforza including:


 * Cavalli-sforza (2000) "Genes, Peoples, and Languages".


 * Cavalli-sforza, Paolo Menozzi and Alberto Piazza (1994) "The History and Geography of Human Genes"

India is politically one, that does not mean that all the people have a similar worldview nor does it mean that all people should have a single worldview. Besides how boring the world would be with just one way of looking at the world. Political conglomeration is not necessarily on the basis of worldview of people and a single worldview need not be forced upon any people in the name of nationalism. At least that is the one lesson we need to learn from the horror of Nazi regime.

thanks Robin klein 19:23, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for all those links to "scholarly" works. But what i would like to see is how this "division of India " was achieved, i mean discovered by these 'scholars' .It would be real great to see such a study.Bharatveer 03:41, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

There is no "division of India" in these works unless one chooses to see it as such, which by the way would be entirely ones own interpretation. Worldview is based on language families and more or less follow the distinct patterns of language families. Because ideas are expressed or communicated through language, people speaking common languages tend to share common ideas and similar worldview. There are language maps of the world that one can see in encyclopedias which were made by linguists and psycholinguists through years of "scholarly" work. Please read the scientific works of all these "scholars" and of those whose links were provided if you want to see "scholarly" studies related to this. Robin klein 05:52, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. I will keep an eye on such "scholarly" studies.As for your "one chooses to see comments", it would be worthwhile to remember the relation between language politics in Tamilnadu and the AIT propounded by the "pyshcho" linguists from oirope. Now that you have rephrased the wordings, it just looks fine Bharatveer 06:24, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Coordinates
The coordinates given above the article, on clicking, is saying "Error: out of range". Please see. --Dwaipayan (talk) 11:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I noticed that. The one on the Bangalore page gives the same result. Perhaps wiki maps doesnot have South India listed yet. --  thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu _ Joseph 14:16, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * No, it's because the latitudinal minutes figure reads "977" despite the fact that there are only 60 minutes in a degree. Saravask 04:58, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Saravask for pointing that out. I've modified the same. It works now. :) -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu _ Joseph 09:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, looks better now. Saravask 00:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Kochi City Police
I have modified the 'KCP'to its full form since it can give a slightly misleading impression that it is an service independent from Kerala Police (KP).Bharatveer 06:52, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Details about CUSAT??
Who need to know details about Cusat when they are here to know about Cochin??if all agree,pls edit it.

Literary Figures
Is Ponjikkara Raphi a prominent literary figure in Mayalam Literature?The fact that he got one Literary award does not qualify himself to be included in the list of other literary giants.If at all Raphi is to be mentioned, then the whole sentence should be suitably modified in order to accomodate him .Bharatveer 15:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Umm..okay. I've removed him. -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu _ Joseph 11:21, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

As per Or As of
According to Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary," as per" means " in accordance with" or " according to ".And " as of " means ON, AT, FROM and is used to indicate a time or date at which something begins or ends.

Here, either of these two can be used .Using "as per" will not convey any meaning as suggested by kellen. Bharatveer 14:50, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Just like a road side billboard
The section- Education and health care looks like an advertisement board. Can you please trim it up? -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Santhoshj (talk • contribs)
 * Its currently one of the items in the to do list. Thanks for pointing out. I'll get down to it soon. :) -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu _ Joseph 17:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. Does it look better? -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph 14:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Etymology
This paragraph needs to be rephrased to avoid weasel terms.-- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bharatveer (talk • contribs)
 * I'll look into that too. Thanks again! -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu _ Joseph 17:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I've tried to change a few words. Please take a look at the para now. -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph 15:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Skyline image
Per Seattle (Image:Wiki seattle alki 01.jpg), can someone upload one for Kochi? We can tuck it into the infobox. Thanks. Saravask 17:37, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Skyline de Kochi.jpg|thumb|300px|Kochi]]I dont think its gonna be a good idea. Mumbai is perhaps the only Indian city with a "presentable" skyline. :P Anyway, here is the kochi skyline. The monsoon sky makes the image look pretty dull and lifeless. And please dont look at that seattle image again. You'll cry, thats why. -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph12:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * But it looks interesting still ... You could also try taking it during the magic/golden hours (sunrise, sunset, twilight, etc.). This would really punch up the article's beauty and presentability. Saravask 16:28, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The photo was from a collection I had taken sometime back. As you probably know, we can get such a picture only while on a boat (proper front view is impossible from the islands) . And sadly I dont have a boating trip planned anytime soon. :( You can use this and this photos too (Got permission from the user on flickr) -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph06:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Transport in Kochi
We really don't need Transport in Kochi as a seperate wiki article. Merge. Dyslexic agnostic 06:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it is hardly 5 minutes since the article was created. I was going to make some major edits to the page. Also, Kochi is being prepared for FAC. So I was thinking of condensing the transport section here and adding more details to the daughter article. This page is nearly 50Kbs in length. I request some time to develop the Transport in Kochi page. -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph 06:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Why don't we give it a bit of time to see how it develops. Summary style always augments large articles... -- Samir   धर्म 06:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Natural Harbour
The mention of port (natural) should be changed to harbour (manmade).Cruxit 07:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not too sure of this. But the 1341 flood did indeed create a natural harbour at Kochi. What Robert Bristow did, was to construct a safe inner harbour (The old Port of Cochin operated with ships berthed in the outer seas and cargo supplied by large barges ). Therefore, IMO, Kochi would qualify as a natural harbour. Thoughts, anyone? -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph 09:46, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment
Lead has to be a good summary of the article, 2-3 paras long, per WP:LEAD. The lone sentence in the lead is an oddity. Try rewording to do away with temporal references like "today". (I placed this comment in the todo section which apparently is not watched by many.) -- Sundar \talk \contribs 10:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You are right. Thanks, Sundar. I'll work on that soon. -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph 11:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Mistake in city fact file
According to the fact table on the right says: Area: 94.88 km² Population: 1,355,406 accd. to 2001 census. Density: 6250/KM2 Mayor: Mercy Williams

These values clashes with the facts given in the corporation's website- it says the population is 650,000 accd. to 2001 census. The density is 6250/sq. km.

differences found:

1. If area and population stated in the wiki is right, then density must be around- 14285.47/sq. km. 2. If area is right as the greater cochin is included, then the mayor name is not apt as aluva and some other area are out of the corporation.

Santhoshj 16:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You are right!! There is an inconsistency. I'll certainly look into it. Thank you. -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph08:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe the inconsistency has been corrected. The article now describes only the area under the corporation limits. The UA needs another article. -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph04:24, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Img
Feel free to use this image if you think it is useful. Sorry, I dont seem to have kept notes on the location/name of this church, beyond that it had some very interesting historic maps in their collection. Shyamal 06:14, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks! That is the Santa Cruz Cathedral Basilica. I've added it to the History of Kochi page. Cheers! -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph06:11, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Marine drive pic
I don't think that this image adds any value to the article. If it does, it belongs in the economy section. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 11:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I've changed it to a pic from the Kerala page. How does it look now? -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph06:27, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Copyedit
I've done some copyediting of the prose. I've made my own assumptions while fixing broken sentences. Verify if they're correct. I've also left many questions as comments either inline or in edit summaries. Please try to answer them. And lastly, feel free to revert any of my edits. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 13:25, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Only the history section needs some condensation and the other sections are fine. After a final round of copyediting or rewording of the lead per WP:LEAD, this article can be nominated as an FAC.

Too much info - RUINED THE PAGE :(
In Geography,the para on soil and bird sanctuary is irrelavent.

In economy,the links for "rubber,pesticide,chemicals,fertilizers.." etc are also irrelavent.in my opinion,nobody will be intrested to read about pesticides and all when they come to read about Kochi.

In civic administrations,again some links like "maternity,engineerinf,health,accounts" etc are not needed.Info on the areas governed by the mayor,his organisation etc may not intreast most readers.The 1 liner on water supply can also be deleted.Also the last para on police commisioner and different cells operating under the police are not needed.but the details on high court are welcome.

In transport;Every city has traffic problems,lets not highlight the problems.the para on water transport can be trimmed bit while keeping the most useful details like new bridges coming up to link different islands.

In demographics,lets not scare our reader away our readers(many of our readers may be international tourists who want first hand knowledge of the city while some may be planning to move in to live here)by projecting the problems of Cochin.almost every Indian city has the problems of poor sanitation,traffic,water,crime etc.let us put some positive info and edit the unwanted statistics(like SC/ST,suicie rate etc) and problems of Cochin.

In culture,i feel the following sentence is not needed : "The people are also increasingly fashion-conscious, often deviating from the traditional Kerala wear to western casual clothing." The country as a whole has changed and its expected that Cochin also has changed.such remark about Kochiities are not necessary.

In education,i cant understand +3...schools are upto 10+2 and after that its college which may be 3/4/5 and is in no way related to the school.only in some western countries,the practice of calling them schools are practiced like med school,art school etc.Also edit the 1 line mentioning Arts,commerce and science.

Media section is nothing short of an ad page in a newspaper...it has links to every malayalam newspaper,every malayalam tv channel and also every mobile service provider.

Finally,a wiki 'one liner page' devoted for unimportant places like eloor,kalamaserry,vaduthala,vypin,thopumpady etc are not needed and need not be mentioned here.some of the people who reside here may feel letdown,but its necessary to cut short the page,make it more focused and more informative.readig through the article should make anyone ave a positive opinion about the city and convince any tourist that this city is worth visiting.

i hope that deepu/boltz and all who rgularly update the page and guard it agressvly againt others will look into the points i mentioned.I have given up editing as some of my edits/discusions were reverted/disagreed.


 * The article is written based on the guidelines laid down by WikiProject Indian cities. The intention of the article, is not to be entertaining, but to be informative. Therefore, there has to be a balance between the "good" and "bad" aspects of the city. See articles like Bangalore or Kolkata, which are featured. And see wikitravel for tourist information about Kochi.
 * The one liner stubs of these "unimportant" places became necessary, as the article is being prepared for featured article candidacy. Feel free to populate them.
 * Lastly, the guard it agressvly part is totally new to me. I have never reverted any constructive additions to this article. Please point out your edits that got reverted. Thank you. -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph15:39, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Civic administration infobox
Is it just me, or has the civic administration box changed its colour from white to blue by itself? On FireFox 1.5.0.4, the entire box is blue in colour right now. It appears to be doing well in Internet explorer though. Does anybody have some advice? Thanks!-- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph05:34, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Does anybody have a solution to this? Or is the box appearing in blue only for me? -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph05:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks blue in colour. How did it change?Jisha C J
 * Thanks, Jisha. I found the reason eventually. I hadn't specified a background colour initially. And until lately Firefox assumed it to be white. But suddenly (perhaps somebody changed the code of the particular class), it became transparent. Hence the blue colour. It should look correct now, I think. -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph07:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

History
I feel that the contributions of Paliyath Achan towards the freedom struggle is excluded in the History section. He was the prominent leader in Kochi, who faught against English East India Company. -- Rajith Mohan :) (Talk to me...) 14:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm..are you sure that Paliath Achan actually lead a freedom struggle? All I could find was that Paliath Achan tried to defend Kochi when the Birtishers were trying to conquer it. Also, the Paliath Achans went out of power during the Mysore invasion, I think. -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph06:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Paliyath Achan fought against the English East India Company. Cochin became a vassal kingdom of the British in 1791, following a treaty signed between the King and the British. In 1800, Cochin was the placed under the control of the Madras government, and thus became fully under the British control. Mysore invasion was before this. Paliyath Achans continued to be the ministers even after the Mysore invasion. The Paliyath Achan, who was the Diwan of Cochin in 1800s, joined hands with Veluthampi Dalawa, and attacked the Resident, Mecaulay’s house at Cochin on December 18th 1808. You can collect more details about that. -- Rajith Mohan :) (Talk to me...) 07:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The revolt by Veluthambi and Paliath Achan was in 1808-1809 (Tipu was dead by 1799). Achan was exiled to Bombay in 1809. Tintin (talk) 07:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation
In the audio file linked in the introductory sentence, the speaker pronounces 'Kochi' with a conspicuously long vowel ‘o’, whereas the traditional pronunciation is with a short vowel ‘o’. The Malayalam spelling correctly uses the short ‘o’. Please discuss if this needs correction, and update if necessary. Thanks. Gajamukhu 08:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Is it okay now? -- thunderboltza.k.a.D e epu Joseph07:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is. Thanks! Gajamukhu 23:32, 22 August 2006 (UTC)