Talk:Konstantinos Speras

Connection to fascism
 Hello friend. In Greece the name of Konstantinos Speras is well known. We can make his article in WP again correctly because the previous one had a lot of promblems. But please, friend dont delete the sources that proves that he became a well known fascist. If you have any objections about it, and you believe lies that communist forces killed him (or cut off his head) cause he was an antistalinist socialist i will be very pleased to give you full proofs that he was fascist. Just check the bibliography of Greek article and request book and page. Best regards --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 16:32, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for the note. Could you please share a scan of those sources— or link here? (I'm trying to determine the quality of the sources.) czar  10:33, 15 June 2018 (UTC)


 * > czar

1 Speras in 1926 as a witness in court against (all) the leadership of KKE, and he accuses them of nation traitors(with the possibility to have death penalty). Not stalinists in the leadership of KKE then but Pandelis Pouliopoulos.

2 Speras as hero of Greek fascists. (dont believe what he writes cause he dont have proofs for everything, he make from his mind many things) 3 Speras with the allias of "Greek worker" wrote the history of "Greek workers" in the fascist newspaper in the logic of worker fascist logic.

4 A greek right wing minor historian (but with many famous publications with good archive) wrote "ΑΝΔΡΕΑΣ ΚΟΝΔΑΚΗΣ. Επρόκειτο για αξιωματικό σε π.δ., ο οποίος ήταν πρόεδρος της Συνομοσπονδίας Παλαιών Πολεμιστών.[...] (Ν. Καλύβας, Ε. Ευαγγέλου, Κ. Σπέρας),. He writes about an army official who collabarate with the axis, and he had a circle of trade unionists between them...Speras. The first one Kalyvas, was in 1944 by nazis, a minister. He was killed by OPLA.

There is a lot of staff in Greek. But the big deal is that in 2018 noone says the opposite side. Only one left guy Stinas said before 30 years that Speras was an anarchist, in his memoirs he said a lot of lies and he did a lot of copy paste from anticommunist propaganda!Because he had very anger cause, stalinists killed his friends.

There is a lot of noise about him in greek internet maybe from his relatives, but after the last publication of Kostopoulos (a well known left journalist) who he just repeat what greek wikipedia wrote the conversation is ended for sure.

Απόστολος Κοκμάδης was an young army official who has give interviews and he says about the end of Speras. They were together and they went to fight against National Liberation Front (Greece). Κοκμάδης later became an officer of the army of communists, while Speras executed. Not beheaded. Not killed by OPLA as the "red terror" want. In Greece there was a ridiculus myth for years that Communist Army (ELAS) was good, but Communist police (OPLA) was bad. New historians proved that as good and as bad was ELAS so was OPLA. So Speras wasnt killed by OPLA as the myth wanted for not to blame the good face ELAS army, but from Orestis a prominent "captain" of ELAS.

Just to say that Avraam Benaroya and Yannis Kordatos insist that he was police informant from 1925. Was Avraam Benaroya or Kordatos a stalinist? I dont think so. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:26, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi, from what I understand, you're interpreting those sources as proof that Speras identified as a fascist. That would be fine if you were a historian making a claim in your own book, but with Wikipedia, we don't make original claims like that. Instead we cite secondary sources (such as historians) who make those claims for us. So do you have a reliable, secondary source that you can quote as explicitly having said that "Speras became a fascist"? If not, we unfortunately cannot make that claim until we have a reliable source to paraphrase. By the way, I have a friend who can help with translations from Greek if need be. Appreciate your patience, czar  16:27, 23 June 2018 (UTC)


 * czar No. I dont say that. I gave you the sources of the archives to understand what was happened and to find the truth alone if you want, cause there is a little deny that he was facsict. For wikipedia rules: Three historians are saying that he was a Fascist. Hondromatidis, Kostopoulos and Koukounas. I gave the 2 sources in the article. Case closed for Wikipedia. Hondromatidis is saying that he was a member of Fascist party of 1936.


 * Hondromatidis, had written a book about Greek fascists. See the list of the Fascists.


 * --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 19:18, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
 * , great—I expanded the citation: Can you scan page 161 for me and quote the part that says Speras became a member of Mercouris's party?  czar  20:18, 23 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Right now i dont have the book of Hondromatidis. But as you see he has written a book of Greek Fascists, and he was in a chapter the case of "anarchist" Speras. Right now i have the book of Kostopoulos of 2016.
 * In Greek :
 * Στη πραγματικότητα, ο Σπέρας ήδη από τα μέσα της δεκαετίας του 1920 είχε ταυτιστεί δημόσια με τους διωκτικούς κρατικούς μηχανισμούς, καταθέτοντας ως μάρτυρας κατηγορίας στη δίκη ηγεσίας ου ΚΚΕ για το Μακεδονικό επί Πάγκαλου κι αυτοπροβαλλόμενος σαν <<προιστάμενος του συνδέσμου των συντηρητικών εργατών>> . Το 1934 μετείχε στα εγκαίνια των γραφείων του Εθνικοσοσιαλιστικού κόμματος στην εφημερίδα του οποίου αρθογραφούσε, [page 150 ends] ενώ το 1936 εμφανίζεται ως παράγοντας μιας <<Εθνικής Συντηρητικής Οργάνωσεως>>. Αξίζει ν' αναφερθεί ότι, σε αντίθεση με τους φόνους των τροτσκιστών που έμειναν κατά κανόνα αδικδήκητοι ο κατοχικος Ριζοσπάστης δεν είχε κανένα πρόβλημα για την αιχμαλωσία του <<καθάρματος Σπέρα>> από το 34ο σύνταγμα του ΕΛΑΣ, ως εξουδετέρωση κατασκόπου σταλμένου <<Από την ομάδα Λαζαρή του ΕΔΕΣ>>
 * In a footnote Kostopoulos writes: Ο Λαζαρής υπήρξε πρόεδρος του αθηναικού παραρτήματος της Φασιστικής ΕΕΕ.
 * translate :
 * In fact, since the middle of the 1920s, Speras was publicly identified with the persecution of the state apparatuses, as a witness of accusation against the KKE leadership trial of the Macedonian during Pangalos dictatorship and self-proclaimed as "the headmaster of the conservative workers' union." In 1934 he participated in the opening of the offices of the National Socialist Party in whose newspaper he wrote, and in 1936 appeared as a factor of a << National Conservative Organization >>. It is worth mentioning that, unlike the Trotskyist killings that were generally unclaimed (my disclaimer: from the Stalinists of KKE), the Rizospastis(my disclaimer: the newspaper of KKE) during the Occupation of Greece had no problem with the capture of the << scum Speras >> from the 34th Constitution of ELAS, as the suppression of a spyman of Lazari team of EDES >>


 * In footnote : Lazaris was headman of Fascist EEE section.


 * --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 21:16, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Moved from my talk page for posterity, in case someone has more time than me to verify this source material (not watching, please )  czar  01:15, 20 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I am very proud of the article of Greek Wikipedia, you can check it also. If anyone need something, just ping me. I will answer in a few hours. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 11:14, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * An anarchsist Greek poet talks about Speras. youtu.be/IBeMvsNtO3s?t=5644 He says in Greek, that he became a fascist because KKE was bullying (!) him.

I suppose he says that for members of KKE like Avraam Benaroya, Pandelis Pouliopoulos and he says for them that they were stalinists(!!!). OK no promblem. BUT i suppose you can translate and put subtitles in English. There is no claim in 2018 from NOBODY that he wasnt a memeber of fascist party in 1934. The truth is always a bitter taste. We dont need heroes and demons to write history, about the good anarchist and the evil stalinists.

--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 11:42, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * A Greek poet is not a RS. Cinadon36 (talk) 13:13, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * of course not. But i point that noone today insist that earth is flat. Not even a greek anarchist who admits that speras was a fascist but he became that cause kke was bad stalinists.--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 13:50, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Your claim can not be verified by the specific video though. Cinadon36 (talk) 14:11, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * my claim is valid cause one historian, two uptodate journalists say the same things. There is no opposite opinion in 2018 not even from greek well known anarchists. Before decades some left activists like Stinas had made a claim. But history is a process, and now we have 2018 not 2000. --14:53, 21 November 2018 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk • contribs)


 * It doesnt work that way, it's not a football match where team A scored two goals and team B scored only one hence WP Voice should reflect just team A. Plus, a RS dated in 2000 is still a RS. Cinadon36 (talk) 15:15, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * history is a process not a football match. New historians are more accurate than the previous.--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:28, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I fully agree on that, but that doesnt mean that a RS dated in 2000 doesnt count. might offer a solution. Cinadon36 (talk) 15:43, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Correction : Dimitris Troaditis is the founder (or a member with many publications) of ngnm.vrahokipos.net/index.php/english. He is an amateur historian. He or someone else from this platform before years wrote this : https://ngnm.vrahokipos.net/index.php/english/562-konstantinos-speras-the-life-and-activities-of-a-greek-anarchosyndicalist. Now he admits the connections of Speras with the Fascist Party. So even the Greek amateur historian anarchist who wrote hymn about Speras's life finally admits everything. So what are the others RS so it is written in the text of WP "according of Kostopoulos". Provide any RS that deny that orelse i will delete "according to Kostopoulos". --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 18:30, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Kōstopoulos
Here's the citation Αντικαθεστωτικός wrote for the above Kōstopoulos quote. czar 05:19, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Based on this quote is it reasonable to write the following?   czar  08:43, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * , I removed in case you didn't see this section.  czar  09:39, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks Czar, no problem about the removal. But it is not reasonable to deduce that Speras participated in the Nazi party. That would be a misrepresentation of what Kotsopoulos said. Cinadon36 (talk) 09:52, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * , this is the Google translation. It says that Speras participated in the party's "office opening" and its newspaper. This implies participation in the organization, unless I am missing something? czar  16:43, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * czar Kostopoulos didn't wrote exactly that he was a member of this fascist party. He descripes only the participation of Speras in the Opening ceremony and writings in the newspaper. Chondromatides says that he was a member. Its a little difference, but there is for sure a difference. So in Kostopoulos opinion is open if Speras was a prominent ally of the fascist party or just a member. Do you want to provide the source of the fascist newspaper with the full name of Speras from https://library.parliament.gr/ or it wont change anything for you? Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 17:49, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Here is what I proposed: This implies that participating the opening ceremony counts as participating in the party—is this fair and accurate, based on what Kostopoulos wrote? I purposefully didn't say Speras was "a member" because Kostopoulos did not go as far as Chondromatides. Trying to balance what's fair to the subject and source, given what's written in secondary sources. I would prefer not to use the archival newspaper to avoid original research—either a reliable, secondary source makes the party connection for us, or we should reduce it to a minor point. Overall, the article should reflect the major points written about Speras (e.g., the Seifos strike) and other lesser elements (e.g., late-life controversy) should be covered proportionately less.  czar  18:39, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * czar I didnt suggest to use the archival newspaper, but only to see how simple is this matter. It is just obvious. Serifos strike is a big topic but i am not sure that we can find anything in details with the requirements of RS, except that Speras was the leader of the miners.  I dont have any objection about your proposal.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 19:03, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Dear, that wouldn't be correct. Speras did not participate in the Nazi party. Speras was present at the opening ceremony on behalf of a Union and made a speech. Several other institutions were present. The conclusion that Speras was a member of Mercury's party is erroneous. 19:13, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Let's dont bother more. Lets do as the friend Cinadon36 suggests. We dont have to write that he was a full member of the fascist party. Just let's leave that he was there and afterwards he wrote in the newsaper of the Nazis. Let's have consensus finally.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 19:27, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Let me know if the following looks incorrect.  czar  21:00, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Profession

 * historian Can we have some evidence that Kostopoulos is a historian? Regarding this edit Cinadon36 (talk) 09:37, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * No. You should provide a claim that he is only a journalist and not (and) a historian. You write it, you have to provide evidence.--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 09:53, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * So let me see..The only RS in the subject is Kostopoulos for which we do not know his profession. I thought he is a journalist as he is a member of IOS investigating journalist group. Here, a source in greek, claiming to be journalist . Now it 's your turn to back your claim. Cinadon36 (talk) 09:59, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * he is a reliable source, well cited and in google scholar. What we need his profession? --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 10:08, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * He is not well cited, he is just cited. what is your opinion on this? Cinadon36 (talk) 10:20, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * yes i would like a justification for the 'according to kostopoulos'. He is a RS, we must not add this. Why this in english wikipedia? Is any other opinion for the opposite of what Kostopoulos suggests? If so, please provide me the other RS. If not, please delete it.--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 10:40, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * There is no need to attribute ("according to Tasos Kōstopoulos") if we are not providing any other claims to put Kōstopoulos's analysis in doubt. If such sources ARE added, I would attribute Kōstopoulos as a journalist based on the bios I've found online. (The publisher does not even provide one.) I haven't seen a bio that describes him as a historian, but the point is moot if there is no counter-evidence to the claim (and thus no reason to attribute). czar  16:43, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * czar To be honest with you, Hondromatedes is for sure a better source, and a more qualified historian and he is cited more from prominent historians, but ok. Rules are rules. Kostopoulos is for sure a journalist, but with a master thesis in the topic of WW2 axis greek security battalions and a phd in macedonia(name/history) confilct issue, he participate in history journals, conference etc. Ok he is not something very big, but he is ok for this simple matter. So as you suggest until a RS  is presented i delete the attribute of "according to T. Kostopoulos" Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 18:49, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

KSL
"[h]e fought with all his might for the emancipation of the working class, for an autonomous trade-union movement, for a society without slaves and bosses.(...) He was slandered, his work and actions were distorted and eventually he was murdered, along with dozens of other working class militants, in the name of the one and only ‘orthodox’ way to socialism."

This just a copy paste from a greek book. Exacty. I will provide later the exact page in greek. This is not something serious but just a ....copy paste and tranalate!!--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:47, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

It is within quotation marks.Cinadon36 (talk) 15:50, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes but is just copy paste from a greek writer (not a scientist) who wrote in 2000 the book for speras in his prologue. The writer is leon. Kottis publications bibliopelagos. Not something that has any value.--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:58, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm also inclined to remove the Kate Sharpley Library citation altogether, since it's sourced to a pamphlet, reads like hagiography, and the doesn't have any other hallmarks of editorial reliability (reputation for fact-checking, editorial pedigree, etc.) czar  16:31, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * its just a copy paste from a greek book of 2006. Chondromatides is a well known historian in greece. Please just give some time to check what i am saying. It is a joke that he wasnt in the party cause we have access in the newspapers with his name.--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 16:37, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm arguing that we remove this source so I think we're in agreement. The KSL pamphlet ("copy") isn't reliable and either way, as sourced, doesn't even say anything explicit about Speras joining the NSP. If the original Leonardos Kottis citation is more explicit and confirmed, we can cite that at that time. czar  16:56, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * yes of course. L. Kottis just wrote a prologue in speras memoirs about serifos strike. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 17:04, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

This is the exact text. Just a copy paste from here.

https://books.google.gr/books?id=tZM-AAAACAAJ&dq=Kostas+speras&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjhhrqcn-beAhWxM-wKHSYQCoUQ6AEIRjAH

Please check.--19:45, 21 November 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk • contribs)

The exact source is from here:

http://www.ainfos.ca/05/may/ainfos00240.html

--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 20:12, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

WP Voice can't be "that Speras was a member of Greek National Socialist Party"
Wheather Speras became a member of GNSP is a matter of debate, so let's attribute. Cinadon36 (talk) 13:13, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * from whom is disputed? From publications of 1980 and 2000? --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 13:52, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Strong claims need strong verification and as I can understand Chondromatis is not the leading expert on the matter, actually world accredited historians have not digged into the matter... What is the problem with attribution though?  Cinadon36 (talk) 14:19, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * he is exactly the leading expert in the matter of greek fascists.And everyone greek historian cites him for that matters, and i mean everyone. This a well known subject, but if you have any evidence about something else please tell me your point of view.--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:00, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Weird, I can't find any citations in google scholar.Nor on him or his book. 0 citation in google scholar is rather unexpected for a leading expert.Cinadon36 (talk) 15:12, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * So? What is your point if it is not in english it is not exists? If u know greek historians and you are able to read in greek you should known historians like Dordanas, Chandrinos that cite him in all the conferences. The well known conference "enemy at the gates" or left journalist Kostopoulos etc. In greek article it so obvious that he was a fascist (there is the article of the newspaper plus the historians) that nonone made such claim. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:21, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Αντικαθεστωτικός claimed In greek article it so obvious that he was a fascist (there is the article of the newspaper plus the historians) that nonone made such claim. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:21, 21 November 2018 (UTC). A look in the history of the greek article, will reveal that Αντικαθεστωτικος is the main editor. . A look at the references, will reveal that primary sources and blogs are heavily used. So, the claim "look what the greek article states" it is rather hypocritical. Cinadon36 (talk) 10:38, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * of course and i am very proud for my contribution! Primary sources are used but with the overview of secondary sources. I dont understand why you bother greek wikipedia. Greek wikipedia is not me, even if i am the main editor in one article.And t I protest about that, cause i see it as a full attack to the reliability of G.W. I didnt mention anything that concerns you and your contribution in other projects, and i dont care at all to do so. Feel free to advertise my work, i am very proud of it. I hope you feel someday the same :)

Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 10:55, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I am just pointing out that el.WP is unreliable and hence your claim to have a look at el.WP is invalid. Cinadon36 (talk) 11:24, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * yes it is an obvious full rough attack in greek wikipedia. I dont if you are a member of this wikipedia and you know some Greek, but i assure you that greek wp is by far better than the english wikipedia(oooh i did an attack in en.wp :). Have a nice day, i think i have say a lot of things, and i just recycle them now. Feel free to contibute, and if u find a RS about speras please, i beg you, ping me. I want not only the Vasili's opinion, but also the friends of Vasili!--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 11:32, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * a)It is not an attack to el.WP, it is criticism to the specific article. b)My greek are better than yours, c)My greek are better than your humour. Cinadon36 (talk) 12:23, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * No citations- no leading expert. Citations that cant be proven, dont count. el.WP is not a reliable source either. (not even en.WP) Cinadon36 (talk) 15:41, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Αντικαθεστωτικός is pushing his version without waiting for a consensus. Αντικαθεστωτικός Please self revert your edit.Cinadon36 (talk) 15:46, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm sure we can work this out. Is it accurate to say the result of the above is that we should credit the "Greek National Socialist Party" connection to Chondromatis? Or are we still determining whether Chondromatis is reliable for that claim?
 * If the former, I'll just restore the in-text attribution that I recently removed. If the latter, what is the reputation of the publisher—what kinds of books do they publish? czar  16:12, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I do not feel that Chondromatis is a reliable source, as I have pointed out he has 0 citation on google scholar. But I wont object to insert his opinion with attribution.Cinadon36 (talk) 16:20, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * no. Everyone says that he was a fascist. Not only chondromatidis. Kostopoulos a left wing writer says that speras in 1943 was in pro fascist group. I have historians of 1950 who say that Speras was a police informant. But i didnt care to add them. If you stay from what a greek book says in 2006 and a english writer just translate yoi will make a big mistake. I suggest to see the greek version. Nobody had ever make a such claim for ten years. And nobody will. It is obvious. I have put the fascist newspaper with the link.--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 16:23, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict), could you link us to more background on Chondromatidēs's qualifications and the reputation of the book's publisher? Perhaps we're finding nothing on Google Scholar because it doesn't capture the author's other publications, or because we should be searching with Greek script? czar  16:31, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * chondromatides is cited from all the uptodate greek historians. I will provide some phds i few days. For which greek historian you can find something in google scholar? I think for none. Greek wikipedia in this subject has many sources, pls check it.--16:47, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * , for what it's worth, Chondromatidēs is cited across the Greek WP (elwp) per this search. czar  17:03, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

https://athens.indymedia.org/media/old/130413374-to-timwro-heri-tou-laoi-iaswn-handrinos.pdf

This is from the most prominent greek historian. This is his master thesis(it is free version, the book had an award). He cited Chondromatides as many prominent historians do. Also check kostopoulos.--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 17:13, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Chondromatides in not cited in peer reviewed articles. Now Αντικαθεστωτικος is providing us with his thesis in order to prove that he is cited? This is not how citations work. Plus, what happens in small wikipedia project (ie Greek Wikipedia) cannot be taken into consideration in the evaluation of a source. The guidelines are crystal clear and Chondromatides does not qualify. The claim that Chondromatides is well cited can not be proven. Cinadon36 (talk) 17:28, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * it is from the well known book that had an academic award in greece.http://www.biblionet.gr/book/177781/Χανδρινός,_Ιάσονας_Γ./Το_τιμωρό_χέρι_του_λαού Not just from a master thesis. So you suggest to delete kostopoulos and chondromatides and leave the copy paste of the section that you add from anarchist publication of vivliopelagos of 2006? Is it a kind of joke?--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk)


 * The only joke I know of is that he is a leading expert with 0 citations. Now, on his book, can you please inform us on the citations by peer-reviewed journals Cinadon36 (talk) 17:38, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * i suppose to be the leading expert he has to copy paste and translate from greek self publications of 2006? Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 17:43, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Ironic statements are not constructive. Cinadon36 (talk) 18:34, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * The back and forth isn't helping. Can you give me some time to poke around before making claims like this? It's difficult since I don't speak Greek but I advise giving the benefit of the doubt before making declarative claims about how citation/publishing systems work in other languages, given how different they can work, unless you have added familiarity with historiography in the Greek language? No need to rush through changes and let's keep the rhetoric down until we're in agreement.  czar  17:47, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Ok, you have a valid point. Take as much time as you want. I did my search, do yours and we will compare later.Cinadon36 (talk) 18:34, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * the same as chondromatides from http://independent.academia.edu/tasoskostopoulos in his late book. Its the word of them against the copy paste of 2006. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 17:56, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * What are you trying to say with this list of papers? It is interesting that Kostopoulos is being cited in google scholar where as Chondromatides has no citation at all. Cinadon36 (talk) 18:34, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * so then what is your promblem? Kostopoulos says that he was a fascist and in 1943 in group of ex fascists. I hope you dont prefer copy paste text against a google scholar cited writer. Correct?-Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk)


 * If we accept that Kostopoulos is a RS on the matter, then we should attribute to Kostopoulos the claim that he joined the Mercury's party. Because strong claims need strong sources. Cinadon36 (talk) 18:52, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * so all this noise for nothing? Its not strong claim, its obvious. You have access in the newpaper and you can read it. Ok it for sure you dont know greek.--18:59, 21 November 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk • contribs)


 * http://www.academia.edu/14985010/_The_evolution_of_the_Anti-Semitic_discourse_of_the_newspaper_Makedonia_in_Salonika_and_its_columnists_1911-1944_In_proceedings_of_7th_InternationalConference_Serb-Croat_Political_Relations_in_the_20th_Century_Golubic_Obrovacki_Croatia_August_22-27_2014 --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 18:37, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Cant understand what you are trying to say. Cinadon36 (talk) 18:47, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Sorry about my awfull english. If you knew Greek maybe i could write in a better mode than you. But i am sure that your Greek is just from google translate and you cannot read it :( . Unfortunately the boundaries of the language is very big even in Wikipedia. But i am try it and i fight it. For sure -to say something funny as my dad used to say- my English is better than your Greek. Haha. You should try it i am sure you cannot write correct anything in Greek with the correct. ε or i :D. Sorry again. It is very difficult the Greek language. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 00:22, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Chondromatis
Chondromatis/Chondromatidēs/Hondromatidis/ΧΟΝΔΡΟΜΑΤΙΔΗ does not appear to be widely cited.


 * 1) First, a note: Wikipedia cares more about what secondary sources have said reliably the exact truth. If this claim—that Speras joined the Greek National Socialist Party—is important, we should be able to find a reliable source on record asserting as much.
 * 2) Is the Chondromatis book reliable? The publisher, Πελασγός/Pelasgos, appears to be a small publisher with few books. I can't tell if it's partisan or just a small operation. From a standard search of WorldCat, international libraries do not carry their books, though this is potentially the bias of international libraries not collecting Greek script books and I don't know about WorldCat adoption within Greece. Well, what about Chondromatis's reputation then? Apart from a few of the citations above, in which this specific book is referenced, Chondromatis does not appear to have much of a reputation as a scholar. (Is there a bio on him somewhere? I couldn't find one. I don't know if he's a student or what.) If either the author or the publisher's reputation were stronger, I think it'd be fine to attribute the claim and leave it as such. But that isn't the case.
 * 3) So if this is an important claim and the Chondromatis is out, who else can we cite? (And if no one directly asserts the claim, I'd wager it isn't important to include.) I think you mentioned Kostopoulos and Koukounas so I need to dig out those citations from above.

This should give some direction. czar 20:53, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I had answer i think. The claim is from two historians 1.kostopoulos and 2 chondromatidis. Noone else says the opposite except the copy paste from L.kottis that the other user false said that was from a library. I think we have a denial situation that i cannot help it more. Everyone is free to believe what he likes. I told already that hondromatides is cited in conferences (the link for antisemitism) and in books from the most prominent greek historians. In greece few historians are in google scholar. So? If you are not in english, you are do not exist?
 * No, pelasgos is a far right wing small publication house.
 * Kostopoulos's publication house is the bigger of this topic. And he is left wing. So what is the conclusion? --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 21:18, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * If I understand correctly, can we remove the Chondromatis citation and use the the Kostopoulos quoted above instead? (Βιβλιόραμα, the publisher of Kostopoulos's book, appears much more reputable than Πελασγός/Pelasgos.)
 * I don't think we need to include Chondromatis or Kottis in this case—we only need to balance the claims for neutrality if reliable sources show disagreement. But as far as I can tell, no source claims that Speras never joined the fascist party. czar  05:09, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * As Αντικαθεστωτικός stated earlier, there is a huge debate in Greece on Speras. One group (KKE-led) is claiming that Speras joined the fascist party and was a collaborator. The other group is claiming that Speras did not join the specific fascist party and did not collaborate as he was in prison during that time. I believe that this article should reflect the ongoing debate and we shouldn't be trying to shame anyone. Cinadon36 (talk) 06:36, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * What's the best source for that latter argument then, if we have Kostopoulos for the former? czar  06:50, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * he make things from his mind. From historians the case is closed. See kostopoulos etc. For public opinion, public history was a small debate for a while. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 07:13, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * he is telling lies to you. Kostopoulos is left but enemy of kke see ιός Ελευθεροτυπίας Xondromatidis if far right. Check it. I think he makingn fun on you. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 07:15, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I 'd urge Αντικαθεστωτικος to resist further personal attacks. As for the question posed by, here are my concerns. a)I am not pretty sure that Kostopoulos work on Speras is well cited. Kostopoulos has a few citations considering his work on other issues, but not on Speras, as far as I know of. b) Agis Stinas is a cited greek intellectual and his views should be taken into consideration in anarchism related topics such this one (with proper attribution), in order to provide neutrality. Cinadon36 (talk) 07:37, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, Αντικαθεστωτικος, please avoid making personal accusations against other editors, which makes it harder to find agreement.
 * Kostopoulos does not need to be well-cited on Speras in particular, especially since no one has mentioned monographs written on Speras in particular, but additionally because the reliability rests in the publisher's editorial process, even if we have limited information on Kostopoulos, the author.
 * We can discuss Stinas in the thread below and I'm open to seeing his claims in context, but I'd think we should be looking to show more historical evidence here than the view/opinion of an intellectual. I think this comes back to If this is true and noteworthy, there should be an abundance of sources that assert as much. If not, how huge is the actual debate? For the sake of due weight/neutrality, it would be more appropriate to cite such a summative source explaining the "debate" in broad strokes to avoid having to hash out sides/specifics, as has been done above. This also assumes that there indeed are sources for  which I don't believe we've seen yet?  czar  07:56, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * there is no debate. Its only stinas memoirs. Collaborate with who and when? He was in prison 1941 for a short period for a crime. He was released afterwards. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 08:07, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Avraam Benaroya
In his memoirs, he says that Speras as a leader of a group of cops, he was arrest him in the conference of workers (GSEE). But i am in doubt. Should i write his opinion? Avraam Benaroya is between the legends of Greece working heroes.΅--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 23:19, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * We try not to use primary sources and instead prefer secondary sources. E.g., memoirs usually are not fact-checked while, to a greater extent, academic history books would be. czar  04:55, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I wont even comment on that. Cinadon36 (talk) 06:38, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * i am very sorry. Please contribute with then opinion of Vasilli and why not from a google translate and copy paste from Greek?--06:49, 22 November 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk • contribs)

Anarchy in Athens, and DENIAL situation..
''Apoifis, Nicholas (2016). "Anarcho-syndicalism in Greece". Anarchy in Athens: An Ethnography of Militancy, Emotions and Violence. Oxford: Oxford University Press. pp. 124–. ISBN 978-1-5261-0803-6.'' What is that book again? Now i have the time to check it! The publication house is correct? Why we need the opinions of the friends of the writer? Is something like a travel guide in Athens and in anarchy? I think its a kind of funny what he writes about what his friend told him : “Again the communists, the authoritarian communists, murdering anarchists,” Vasili despaired. (sic) Why exactly is in English W.P about Speras? I dont understand at all. I am a bit in despair. I have provide everything, i have put the most uptodate historians about the subject and i must read what Vasili told to mr Apoifis? Is it some kind of joke? Is it a troll situation? I am writing for days everything, and i read about Vasili? Is it a kind of anarchy-denial.

Please i dont have so much time for jokes. If you have something serious to write, please write it. But i beg you, not the opinion of Vasili and his despair. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 00:10, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I ordered a copy of the chapter to arrive in the next week, if that would be helpful. I got the publisher wrong—it should be Manchester University Press, though it looks like the OUP distributes the book. Established university presses are generally reliable sources. However, its sections on Speras are almost entirely sourced to "Uncreative", a Libcom.org author and unreliable source, so it's unlikely that we would use the Apoifis for anything other than its bibliography. I think it's fine that you removed it. (Here's a review of the Apoifis book.) czar  04:51, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * If you do not have time for jokes, please stop making jokes yourself (ie the Benaroya section). Cinadon36 (talk) 07:48, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * not joke at all, i think you are very keen to copy paste and google translate. This i a serious ability for a non Greek speaker.--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 07:55, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Still commenting on other users....Cinadon36 (talk) 08:12, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Stinas
Where did Stinas write about Speras? Was it published as a personal account (primary source) or as an objective observer (secondary source)? czar 05:15, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Have a look here Cinadon36 (talk) 06:40, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Google scholar Kostopoulos says that stinas made false and uncited claims.--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 06:47, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Looks like the relevant quote from that would be The footnote doesn't cite the original Stinas source so still not sure what relation Stinas has to the source (objective vs. affiliated). He doesn't strike me as a historian based on his elwp bio so I'd assume the latter.  czar  06:48, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * its from stinas work. But stinas was a kke dissident. A later somehow anarchist. In his memoirs he wrote such things without reliability. He made also the outrageous claim that speras was far from the politics from 1924. And kke killed him because of 20 years hate! Ok this is also Vasili opinion in mr apoifis work. It is valid because of its publication house?--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 07:05, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Stinas has more citations than Chondromatides so he is a reliable source. Who do you think should voice the anarchist opinion? Nobody? Cinadon36 (talk) 07:39, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * yes but is a primary source. Memoirs of a dissident of kke. Historian Kostopoulos write that he make things from his mind and say lies. Lies of a primary source. Benaroya that you obcected how many citation has?Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 07:52, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Citation count doesn't determine reliability. Publisher pedigree, publisher reputation for fact-checking/accuracy, credibility of the author determine reliability. If the "anarchist opinion" is noteworthy, we should expect a historian to write about it. There's no use in discussing this point theoretically—if there is no passage/context from Stinas (re: Speras's party affiliation) for discussion then what is there to discuss? czar  08:02, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Citation do not determine reliability, but nonetheless, it is a factor that is taken into consideration. If other members of academia use self-published work of someone, then we can use it as well. When talking about an anarchist, anarchist -related sources should be taken into consideration as well. Cinadon36 (talk) 08:11, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * If an academic cites someone's self-published work, we want to cite that academic (the secondary source), not the direct self-published source (the primary source for the claim). When writing about an anarchist, we want to use the highest quality sources available, usually from a historian with objective distance from the material. Feel free to provide this Stinas citation if you want to discuss. czar  08:25, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

The life of the "intelectual" stinas: https://ngnm.vrahokipos.net/index.php/english/760-agis-stinas-a-greek-revolutionary I think you make things right now from your mind. Of course there is objection. Stinas wrote as a primary source because he knew Speras. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 07:50, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * If you continue the personal attacks, I am going straight to ANI. Stinas is cited by current literature, so it is ok to use him with caution and attribution. Cinadon36 (talk) 08:06, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * no promblem. I will put the opinion of benaroya. After all he was an intellectual--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 08:22, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Neutrality
There is a serious problem on neutrality in the current version of the text. Speras is known for his role in Serifos strike- something that is under-represented in the text. Plus some 0-cited historians are used in order to shame Speras while other well-known intellectuals that spoke in favor of him, are not represented in the article. One-sided article. Unless there is an objection, I will place a neutrality template. Cinadon36 (talk) 07:44, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Feel free but more helpful would be expanding the article re: the Serifos strike from reliable sources so that the tag won't be needed. That the article puts too much weight on the fascist connection/debate should be self-evident, but we're having enough trouble getting to the bottom of the original issue you raised. To that point, I've proposed above to remove the Chondromatis citation and use Kostopoulos instead (excerpt above), as long as the Kostopoulos supports the text to be added. czar  08:17, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Kostopoulos is the only one cited author that says such a thing. A strong claim should hold strong evidence. We can use Kostopoulos but we should attribute as there is no broad consensus that Speras was a member of Merkouris party- maybe because most historians do not really bother with such trivialities. Cinadon36 (talk) 08:23, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * That's fine, but let's address the aformentioned matter before continuing with new topics? I'll make the Kostopoulos change. czar  08:29, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Kostopoulos does not say that he was a member of Merkouris party. (see above, first section of talk page)Cinadon36 (talk) 08:38, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Nor did I write that—let's discuss in the above section. czar  08:43, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

→== Depth and major sources ==

Are there any major sources that go into depth on Speras in any language? Or are most of the sources brief allusions? Trying to determine what sources can be used to expand this article, or if it would make more sense, for example, to just cover Speras within the context of the Serifos strike article. czar 21:07, 22 November 2018 (UTC)


 * There is certainly a notability issue, as it seems that real "leading experts" or even real "experts" do not cover Konstantinos Speras. I 'd wait until you get that book on greek anarchism. If there is extensive discusion on Speras, then we could add information in the article. If not, we should nominate the article for deletion and add some info on the Serifos strike article. Cinadon36 (talk) 09:03, 23 November 2018 (UTC)


 * whatever you want, but just remember to mention what he became after being a working class hero. Thats enough for me. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 10:36, 23 November 2018 (UTC)


 * He did not become a Nazi as you might think. But this is not the time or the place to talk about it. Cinadon36 (talk) 11:40, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
 * for sure you are right. He was in the nazi newspaper of mercuris as a pure anarchist! Later he was with Lazaris of fascist EEE as a socialist. Choose the time and place, language, wikipedia to talk about it. I want to discuss again against flatearth arguments, it is very amusing for me. So until this time, i salute youΑντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:00, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Sounds like agreement to merge this article into Serifos. If anyone finds significant chapters/sections written about Speras elsewhere, we can discuss at that time. I'll share the Anarchy in Athens section when it comes in, but per its Google Books preview, it looks like a rehash of Libcom.org. On one hand, this means that the book's author/publisher has vetted the Libcom.org material for presentation, but on the other hand, it means that we're still lacking biographical coverage of Speras. I'd only use it in the Serifos article if we were desperate. czar  21:03, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
 * mr Apoidis just wrote what a greek (Vasilis) friend told him about the subject. Nothing more. But i dont care, put also the anarchist hoax if you want so much. So big deal to discuss for so long.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 00:03, 24 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Apoidis book is certainly RS. Please do share! Thanks! Cinadon36 (talk) 04:25, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Yeap, I 'd to merge the two articles. As for Αντικαθεστωτικός claim: It is rather simple. In order to make a valid claim that Speras was national-socialist (as it is claimed in Greek Wikipedia) you have either You are jumping to authoritarian's left favorite conclusion by making a logical fallacy (Association fallacy). Not everybody who writes in a certain paper is of the same ideology as the newspaper's ideology. Chomsky wrote extensively in NYT. Kropotkin wrote in Encyclopedia Britannica. The same goes to the opening ceremony of a party. Speras attended the openings on the behalf of a Union- many other Unions made a speech that day. It is common for parties to invite people from different ideological backgrounds to deliver a speech. Plus, we need contextualize Mercury's party. Have fun in trying to prove Speras was an evil nazi- there's lot of mud in this game. Hugs and kisses. Cinadon36 (talk) 04:23, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
 * To find a Reliable Source claiming that (there is no such thing)
 * To establish it by your own Original Research. To do that, you will need to find the Speras writings in the Mercury's newspaper, analyze them and explain what elements are of nazi substance.


 * yes the nazi newspaper 'National Flag' with NYT and britannica is somehow the same. You have a great sense of humor! So today how many anarchists/socialists write in Golden Dawn neswspaper? Tell me please about Mercuris party, we need to know. Maybe it wasn't Hitler-friendly as we say(it had participation in europe fascist conferences), but libertarians. The game is over, the mud is only yours to do whatever you can with it, but i fear that you say to much blah blah but the same time you do nothing cause you have bring 0 RS until now, and you just saying funny things. Sincerely yours. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 06:31, 24 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Clearly, you are judging past actions by using contemporary standars. That's historical relativism. Cinadon36 (talk) 07:10, 24 November 2018 (UTC)


 * then you can tell me examples of anarchists/communists who wrote in fascist newspaper of the past :)Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 07:17, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

edes
He wasnt in just edes but in edes of athens.(see greek wikipedia or english wikipedia for the subjcet of seperate organisations). He was in edes of athens that they were full axis collaborators. But i dont mind at all. Case closed for me about the NS writer.

I am waiting for RS from my friendΑντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:26, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

I am very proud about it: Learn about edes of athens. I think i am the one who wrote it before many years. Good job for sure https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Εθνικός_Δημοκρατικός_Ελληνικός_Σύνδεσμος#ΕΔΕΣ_Αθηνών

Only in greek. Cinadon36 please say something more to laugh.

Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 07:10, 24 November 2018 (UTC)