Talk:Korean nobility

Titles & Styles
Err... a lot of things were left out...

The titles of Pre and Post Mongol Goryeo rulers was not just Je, but Hwangje. They're styled as Pyeha by their wives and people of lower rank, but as Hwangsang by their parents and grandparents. Monarchs of Mongol Vassalized Goryeo and of Chinese vassal state Joseon were known as Wang and styled Cheonha.

The Shilla rulers also used varioius titles starting with Geoseogan, Imgeum/Isageum, Maripgan, (all Native Korean titles, along with the title Dangun which was applied to the rulers of Asadal, more commonly known as Gojoseon) and finally changing the title to Wang after adopting Tang styled government. They were styled Mama before Tang government adopting. After the adoption of the Tang styled government they were styled Cheonha.

It should also be known that Gun and Wangja aren't the only styling of a prince and that their titles were wrongly explained. The King's son is known as Wanja, but his title is Gun. For example, Yeosan-gun. The name attached is Yeosan, and gun means prince WHEN ATTACHED TO THAT NAME. Otherwise, he is known as the Wangja or Wangja-nim. There's Taeja, which was used during the Pre and Post Mongol Goryeo Era as well as during the Korean Empire in the early 19th and late 20th centuries. Taeja was styled Cheonha, the same level as Wang in the Confucian hierarchy.

There's also the consorts and queens. Queens who ruled without a King were known as Yeowang and were most likely styled Mama, doubtfully Cheonha. The consorts were known as Wangbi and certainly styled Mama. Empresses were called Hwanghu and styled Mama. A female emperor or an empress who ruled without a marriage would probably be called Yeoje, probably styled Pyeha. The mother of a king/wang would be known as Taebi, where the mother of an emperor/hwangje would be known as a Taehu. Both are styled Mama. The grandmother of the King would be known as Taewangtaebi, and that of an emperor Taehwangtaehu. Also styled as Mama.

Reasons, Explainations & the Importance of Culture on the Titles of the Day
It should also be noted that the titles of monarchs in Korea don't only reflect the government model, but also cultural differences between the Chinese and Koreans. When Shilla adopted the Tang model government, the title Wang came with it. The title Huangdi/Hwangje was not ethnically available to the people of Shilla as they were not of Chinese origin. China considered rulers of any nation other than itself as Wang as a sense of nationalism. This is similar to Japan in which Tenno refers only to the Japanese monarch, however historical records show that in the Chinese court, the ruler of Japan was referred to as Wang. This explains the use of Daewang in Goguryeo. However, Goryeo went against this by proclaiming basically that Korea was adequate to use the title of Hwangje (Huangdi in China), despite the fact it was supposed to be used by a Chinese emperor only. In a Confucian society, the Emperor is above the King. Goryeo was the first true Confucian state in Korea, and therefore it styled its rulers as Hwangje to elevate thier status, and the status of Goryeo.

To add, the title Hwangje is given to a nation that is independently established. This also makes sense of Shilla's use of Wang, as well as Joseon's use of it. Shilla, prior to the land it obtained through the alliance with Tang, used the title Imgeum/Isageum and Maripgan. The Unified Shilla period starts when the title Wang was brought into the Korean system and applied to the Korean Monarch. Because Unified Shilla wasn't independently established, but was established with the help of Tang, its rulers used the title Wang. However, Goryeo was established without foreign intervention, and therefore the title Hwangje could be applied. Joseon, however, was established with help from the Ming dynasty, and in turn it became a vassal state of Ming, and in the future of Qing, and its rulers therefore took the title Wang. The Korean Empire, or Dae Han Je Guk was "established" "independently" (I quote these because the monarch remained the same and just proclaimed himself an emperor of a new nation that hadn't changed either, and because Japan technically intervened by breaking Chinese sovreignty in Korea) and therefore could use the title Hwangje.

So as you can see, it is very, very complicated, and this should all be explained in this article.

The definition of an empire and an emperor in Asia is much different than that of Europe.

Temple Names & Posthumous Enshrinement
ALSO... To add about the names of emperors of Goryeo and kings of Joseon... Although they both use temple names, (names that end in -jo or -jong) posthumously, they are different according to the periods.

The Tang Empire in China enshrined its rulers using Temple Names, as Goryeo proclaimed itself to be an empire, it fitted its deceased rulers with the Temple Names similar to that of the Chinese. When deceased rulers of an empire were referred to, they were referred to by their Temple Names, and not by their names when they ruled. This is a characteristic of an empire of the time. When Goryeo was subjugated by the Mongols, the Temple Names were taken away from the rulers to show that Goryeo was no longer an empire, and that is why the last rulers of Goryeo are without temple names.

However, the Ming dynasty changed tradition and began enshrining rulers differently and posthumously not referring to their rulers by temple names, but did still give these names to their rulers. During the Ming and Qing Dynasties, a deceased ruler was referred to by his Era Name. The Temple Name still existed, however. That is why Joseon continued to use Temple Names; because the Chinese system changed, and it was no longer an emperor's characteristic to be referred to by his Temple Name as it had been in earlier dynasties.

Examples of Temple Names in Korea: Taejo of Goryeo Sejong of Joseon

China: Gaozu of Tang

Posthumous enshrinement is very important in East Asia, and is also important when trying to understand the status of nations. One should always keep the time periods in mind, however.

All of the above contributed by Jisae.

MIstranslation of titles
I've removed many instances of "...can also be translated as emperor." Most of the titles alleged thusly are rarely, and inappropriately, translated as such. In translating East Asian titles, "Emperor" is reserved for "Hwang" and "Je" -- titles derived from the Chinese Huang and Di. Just because a kingly ruler rules over other kingly rulers does not automatically make him an emperor. Across the world, most titles meaning "great king" are not translated as emperor. Uly 07:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Why d'you think so? What is then difference between "kinh" and "great king"? Gantuya eng 13:29, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

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