Talk:Korean noodles

Japchae
Japchae is not a salad. Badagnani 02:29, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It surely is one of the Banchan dishes, but I and my American friends think the food is very similar to and categorized in noodle salads. Anyhow, I will exchange Japchae under "noodle salad" with under Banchan. --Appletrees 02:46, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I always ordered it as a main dish, hot, as a stir-fried noodle dish. I didn't know it could be served cold too. It's never served as a banchan in the U.S. Badagnani 02:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, Banchan has wider meanings than just side dishes served in a small plate for free if people order a main dish. Even Galbi and Bulgogi can be also considered as Banchan. Banchan is always accompanied with Bap (which also has several meanings, but usually refers a bowl of rice). Japchae can be a main dish, side dish, snack, or Anju (food for drink). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Appletrees (talk • contribs) 03:18, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm happy to know this, and thanks for taking the time to explain it. In America Korean food isn't always served this way, and in the restaurants here, when Koreans sit down, they're immediately presented with many banchan and white rice. When Americans go there, we have to wait 20+ minutes and we get the banchan with the meal, and no white rice. So our understanding of banchan is simply the small dishes of pickles with no rice. If the restaurateurs would take the time to explain their culinary culture to us properly, and present the food the same way to us, we'd learn. Badagnani 03:33, 8 September 2007 (UTC),

Purpose of this article?
Is this meant to be a List of Korean noodles, or an article about Korean noodles? It's no problem if it's the former, but the name should probably be changed to reflect it. FlagSteward 00:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It's something like an annotated list at the moment, but merits being expanded into a full article. Badagnani 00:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Janchi Gooksoo correction/addition request
Would the admin of this page pls site a reference for this regional version of Janchi Gooksoo? I'm ok with unreferenced descriptions if they fit the consensus, but this variation seems a bit odd. I've certainly never heard of it. Janchi Gooksoo is made with anchovy broth (not seaweed) and is eaten with a sauce topping made with soy sauce, scallions and sesame seed oil. The soy sauce, and sesame oil are central to this dish. The addition of egg and cucumber is also a bit odd, but believable in rare cases, I guess. The omission of the sauce and the unique broth in this version would make this description some kind of regional variation.

Of course, I don't know where exactly in Korea the author was born, but I just think including some kind of regional reference would improve the accuracy of the description. I can tell you as someone born in Seoul with a mother from Pusan, this is not a version I'm familiar with. If a reference is needed for the more traditional version please use this one: http://www.koreanrestaurantguide.com/recipes/noodle.htm#j -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.117.160.36 (talk • contribs)


 * Wikipedia is open to anyone, so if you think that any content/image is not adequately addressed here, you can edit it by yourself with reliable sources. Anyway I checked several sources and you are so right on the broth, sauce and gomyeong (고명 garnish). Generally, people make it with dried anchovies but in rare cases, beef broth can be used However, seaweed (might be dasima 다시마, Kombu) is purely optional and additional to main broth to enrich the flavor, not solely used. Thus, the information you pointed out misleads the article. No cucumber but zuccinni can be used. Sliced jidan (지단) is generally topped on the noodle dish with sliced gim. The author who put the info is not Korean. Hmmm...original research is a big problem again.--Appletrees (talk) 00:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Appletrees, your edit was great! It also explains why its called 'janchi' to begin with. Even better that I could have written it.  I don't think I want to directly edit any of these articles myself, but I think I'm comfortable just discussing possible changes for now.  Can we also take a look at the bibim-gooksoo (no mention of gochujang) and nengmyeon (no mention of tangy or vinegar flavor).  Sorry for being such a pain, but I only just discovered how to communicate with admins, which is why I'm mentioning all these thing all at once. 76.117.160.36 (talk) 01:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank for the compliment but I or others may not quickly response to your request anytime. Plus, I'm not an English native speaker and you seem to be raised in the place where you're editing now, so I think it would be much better you edit cuisine articles. (You have better English ability and knowledge!) Anyway, I will look at the bibim guksu/naengmyeon section.--Appletrees (talk) 01:35, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * re: bibim-gooksoo and nengmyeon... those are perfect descriptions that pretty much cover all the regional variations that one would encounter. (And yes, I forgot about the hot mustard! Well remembered.) I could not have possibly written something that complete.  The previous description for nengmyeon was just too general. Still correct, but could also be used to describe japanese soba.  Most westerners hate the taste of nengmyeon at first.  Therefore, I felt that more details other than its made with buckwheat and that its served cold and with condiments, were needed. 76.117.160.36 (talk) 02:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The meaning of 'shin' in Shin ramyeon and spelling
I just noticed something else. The description says that Shin Ramyeon literally means "hot and spicy noodles." Can we take out the word 'literally'? This edit seems to have been added by a non-Korean. 'Shin' literally means 'sour,' but Shin Ramyeon is colloquially known as a very spicy noodle and the word 'shin' is used in many contexts to describe an 'intense' flavor. As a reference to this, pls try translating both 'sour' and 'spicy' separately in the google translator tool and see what the hangul says. http://translate.google.com/translate_t?sl=en&tl=ko

In addition, the Shin Ramyeon description has multiple spellings for ramyeon including 'ramyun' in the same line. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.117.160.36 (talk • contribs)


 * Well, I'm not sure of why the description of 'sour' flavor should be included in the section. I think shin means "맵다" not "시다". I do not taste any sour flavor from the ramyeon. You don't need a permission from anybody here, so just go ahead and edit.--Appletrees (talk) 00:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Appletrees, I think you're right because I've always been confused with the 'sour' reference in the name. And "시" is the way to say it. Additionally, now that I think about it, the 'shin' could be in hanja. I don't know this particular character but it could mean "spicy" for all I know. Do you recognize this hanja character?

As for why I don't just edit it: I don't want to presume I know everything, I want to bounce it off of someone like you first and let the administrator make the correction. Plus there's a user on the Korean pages that will summarily undo every edit without much explanation (and I'm not referring to you, I don't remember the person's username). However I do want to see accuracy in these articles because my family is in banchan and korean catering business. Therefore when I see something that's wrong it tends to jump out at me. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.117.160.36 (talk • contribs)


 * The hanja is 辛 . It means "spicy" and is visible in this photo of a package of these noodles. Badagnani (talk) 00:49, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks badagnani, if that's the case then no edit is needed here. My hanja is not what it used to be.


 * Hmm. you must be much more knowledgeable of Korean cuisine than I do per the family business in Korean cuisine! For the next time if you think that some content is not right, you can edit them with "reliable sources" or have any doubt in your mind, any discussion is welcome here. And no administrative action is taken here just editors manage articles. Happy editing!--Appletrees (talk) 00:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Appletrees: from what I've read you know a ton more that I do. I'm really comfortable with you monitoring the Korean pages, you're really fair. I like the fact that you are allowing the dog-meat section, I'm presuming because its well referenced, despite my very strong desire to take it out.  That's fair.  Anyway, my mother, grandmother and aunts are the professionals, not me.  My experience is limited to spending my childhood weekends in their kitchens not as a chef, but as slave labor.  I'm only suggesting the changes that they themselves would suggest (if they knew how to use the internet of course). 76.117.160.36 (talk) 01:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Form of mustard
Is the mustard that comes with naengmyeon a thin yellow paste? When I have purchased naengmyeon it came with mustard oil--a very light-colored oil that is extremely pungent and just a few drops will make the entire dish extremely spicy. So, isn't mustard oil also used? I have never been served the mustard sauce. Badagnani (talk) 03:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Bada, I too have eaten the clear mustard oil you're referring to but only with instant nengmyeon at home. Only a few instant brands separate the mustard oil from the soup packet, but the horseradish component will always be there in some form. This oil is either the natural allyl isothiocyanate extract from the mustard seed or synthetic mustard oil, the former is very common in japanese food stores as wasabi oil. I personally have not seen wasabi oil served in a restaurant, but I’m almost positive that that is what you were served.  My personal experience with nengmeyon in restaurants is with the chinese hot mustard, which is yellow and basically the same thing but cheaper for the restaurateur. At my mom's table it was either green wasabi or hot mustard powder.  But all these variations are essentially the same because it’s the same basic plant and the same chemical that provides the taste and nasal sting.76.117.160.36 (talk) 10:35, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what brand you bought but I never have seen a mustard oil or sauce pack included in branded naengmyeon. Have you had naengmyeon at a Korean restaurant? Mustard sauce in a yellow plastic bottle is usually placed alongside salt/soy sauce bottle on the table during summer (because many people order in the season). Mustard sauce has been traditionally used in mul naegnyeon for people preferring a pungent flavor and to prevent from possible food poison in hot days. I think the oil would likely a new invention per my experience. (In during summer, I eat naengmyeon once in every day)--Appletrees (talk) 03:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I've had naengmyeon both ways (instant at home and in restaurants). Interestingly, the first time (years ago) I didn't like it so much, then I liked it later. The mustard oil came in a tiny clear plastic package that came with the instant one (which also had the noodles and a larger clear plastic package of a spicy, red, liquidy sauce). Badagnani (talk) 16:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Who are you?
Bada, I'm just starting to notice you showing up on multiple Korean food pages. What is your interest in Korean food? I'm not asking this in any malicious way. I'm truly curious where your passion for Korean food comes from.76.117.160.36 (talk) 18:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I am interested in foods from all Asian countries. Take a look at the list of articles I've begun and you'll see foods from many Asian countries. I am an American who studies about Asian music, food, and culture. Perhaps it seems unusual for you that someone from a particular culture isn't only interested in his own culture's food? In America, however, this is normal, due to globalization. I'm extremely interested in Korean music (from aak all the way through current Korean rock and rap), and also like the food very much. Badagnani (talk) 18:17, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Bada, I’m sure you didn’t mean it, but I hope you can appreciate how condescending your comment is. I was asking a somewhat rhetorical question in which I expected you to tell me that your mother is Korean, or that you grew up on an army base in Korea.  I’ve looked around these pages and know that you are one of the most prolific moderators on the topic of Korean cuisine; therefore I wanted to know what specific region of Korea your taste biases originate from.  Not that one needs to be Korean, but by showing me how many articles you have authored on various Asian topics, you are implying to me that culture learned trumps culture lived.  You should also realize that having a passion for other cultures is not a uniquely American virtue.

I frankly do not understand how authoring over a thousand articles on disperse non-Korean topics could provide anyone with credibility when it comes to the specific topic of Korean cuisine. I’m quite a researcher myself, but I wouldn’t presume to be the gatekeeper for the accepted wisdom on an entire art form. Noam Chomsky is one of the greatest researchers of our time, but I would still find it odd if he moderated the El-Dabh article just because he’s fascinated with Egyptian politics. A doctorate program can certainly teach one many things about a culture. However, the Korean culture contains so many additional dimensions that cannot be absorbed just from books, music or restaurants.

I feel very comfortable with reading anything you have written about Korean music and many topics regarding obscure Asian instruments. I honestly would. Even though I can research my way into writing a surprisingly accurate article on traditional Korean instruments, I would not understand the nuances of performing those instruments live, or the nuances of different playing styles. These are things that only a performer like you could truly know on a gut level. Even within my own field of software licensing, I would not assume to be qualified enough to be the gatekeeper on the entire topic.

After reading your comment, I have been trying to figure out why the Wikipedia administrators chose you to be the moderator of Korean cuisine. I have learned enough about you to believe that among your friends and students on campus you are probably considered an expert in Asian instruments (and to a lesser extent the general culture). I have also learned that you are an impressive person in general. However, I would ask you to please consider the possibility that you could still learn more about the specific topic of Korean cuisine. And I hope you could accept that there may be others with valuable knowledge to contribute on these pages, and I don’t mean just me. 76.117.160.36 (talk) 10:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I can't understand your above comments. You asked me a personal question, one which I would never ask to an editor from a nation other than the one s/he is writing about at Wikipedia, and I responded to it honestly, only to be fairly well excoriated, for whatever reason I'm unable to determine. It seemed that you were questioning my "right" to begin or edit such articles, and, from your subsequent comments, it appears that I was quite correct. However, Wikipedia articles are not "owned" by members of any particular culture, but may be edited by any interested individuals from around the world. We all work together, continuously building upon one another's knowledge. I have edited in such a manner with you, always responding to your discussion page queries quickly and working together to improve all articles in which you have shown an interest. Please assume good faith. If you believe another editor to have edited any page in error, please give specifics of what is incorrect about those edits. All I see here is general denigration of a single editor. Badagnani (talk) 17:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I also see that, although you are editing anonymously, you have apparently done extra-Wikipedia research on me and presented such details of the results of your research just above. That is very much a no-no at Wikipedia and all allied projects, as perhaps you haven't yet learned as a new editor, and is the first time this has happened during years of my editing at Wikipedia. Please don't do so again. Badagnani (talk) 17:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * This section is totally irrelevant to the main topic, Korean noodles from the start. So I think it should be moved to either of the users' page.--Appletrees (talk) 17:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry Apple, I promise this discussion will relate to the Korean Noodle topic.


 * Please Bada, I just want you to be reasonable. Let’s think about what will best improve the quality of the Korean cuisine topic.


 * All I’m asking is that you post on the discussion before directly editing within the Korean food pages. You hold domain over a thousand different articles in which I’m sure you’re extremely knowledgeable.  However, I’m just suggesting that on this one topic, perhaps, you still have more to learn; that’s all.  I certainly can learn more from others in this community, and I already have. I misinterpreted the root meaning of ‘shin’ and I’m glad everyone caught that on the discussion page before I passed on my ignorance onto the main page. I must accept my limitations and test out my ideas first.  Its not about who has a right to what, it’s about improving the quality of the topic.


 * Regarding the noodle page: Until you asked me to look at your article origination list, I didn’t know that you wrote the Korean Noodle article. One thing, next to fried rice and porridge, noodles are probably the most basic of all Korean foods: no fermentation timing, no salt brine ratios and no raw elements.  However, I noticed that you can sometimes miss simple mistakes or that you show only a rudimentary understanding about Korean noodle preparation/presentation. For example:


 * 1) “Japche is not salad” – well, actually it is a noodle salad. Doesn’t it look like a noodle salad to you?  There really is no such category in Korean, but that’s the best fit we’ve got.  The one thing we do know for sure however is Japche is not eaten as a main dish.  It perhaps can be considered a snack but not a main dish. Most of the noodle dishes that contain soups could be called main dishes.  This is a very common distinction but you seemed rather sure that it was not a noodle salad but a main dish.  You must also remember that Korean restaurant owners are trying to categorize something Koreans never categorize so he may have stuck Japche in the “Main Dishes” section for simplicity.  There’s other reasons why it’s not presented with the other banchan despite it being a side dish.  Dangmyun is very expensive so providing it to every customer would not be cost effective.  In addition, like all sweet potato and rice-based starches, they harden much more quickly than wheat-based starches, so Japche is by definition a made-to-order type noodle salad.  I encourage you to keep Japche in your frig overnight and see how quickly it loses moisture.


 * 2) Janchi Gooksoo – This recipe was quite a bit off but I assumed that someone just made an honest mistake. However, I’m assuming that you got this description from somewhere, and as the author of the noodle page, you should have known that it was not describing janchi-gooksoo just by looking at it.


 * 3) Bibim Gooksoo – ‘bibim’ translates to ‘mix’ (which you know), but in the cooking context it also could mean to fold in some ingredient. Your description had no mention of gochujang, vinegar or sugar being folded in, which is the entire point of this dish. These key ingredients cannot be covered with the umbrella term ‘condiments’ since they are not optional and must be folded in before serving.  Gooksoo noodles have a horrible tendency to fuse together unless you fold in some kind of sauce shortly after boiling.


 * 4) Nengmeyon – your question regarding the mustard oil packet was a bit strange. I got the feeling you were pointing out a correction at first.  I was actually trying to defend your viewpoint that it may be possible to serve mustard oil at a restaurant.  However, most nengmyeon is served either with the Chinese mustard/wasabi mixed in or on the side, and yes the mustard is yellow.  I personally have never seen clear mustard oil at a restaurant and I imagine that most customers would find that it reminds them of instant nengmeyon and would think the presentation as ‘cheap’.


 * 5) Nengmeyon – your first draft seemed to be missing the entire point of nengmeyon. Yes it a buckwheat noodle served cold with condiments, but it’s the tangy nature of the soup that makes this dish.  What you described before would have fit the description for Japanese soba noodles. One is light and flavored with soy, the other tastes like vinegar and horseradish.  That’s quite a big difference and should not have been omitted.


 * Bada, I truly believe that you are editing in good faith. However, I feel that that is precisely the problem. You feel that you truly are helping the articles with your knowledge but are not.  Try reversing this situation.  If I were to edit articles on El-Dabh and I truly believed in good faith that I was adding value, don’t you think that that’s more dangerous than if I believed I knew nothing (which I don’t)?


 * This is a Korean cuisine page. I think it is reasonable to ask for editors that actually cook and eat Korean food on a regular basis. It has nothing to do with race. I would be proud to recommend your articles on traditional Asian instruments to all my Asian friends.  But editors for Korean cuisine should be able to cook what is being discussed and should be able pick up at least some nuance between regional variations.  Lastly, they should have a large enough sample size of many dishes over many years to draw knowledge from.  Are these things really that unreasonable for a topic dedicated to an art form that is sacred to millions of people?


 * I hope you understand that this is about upholding the quality of a topic we all immensely respect; it’s not about us. It has nothing to do with us.  Trust me; I too have a long way to go.  But I hope after this discussion, we can all work out kinks together; helping each other with references and encouraging each other.  Isn’t that the way it should be?  I am sorry and I’ll shut up now. Feel free to have the last word on this topic. 76.117.160.36 (talk) 22:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I cook and eat Korean food every day. I am now drinking maesil juice, yesterday drank yuja cha and cooked jajangmyeon. The day before that I made dwenjang jjigae. Please don't assume anything about editors whom you don't know. We don't all know everything about every subject and it is not a fault to ask a question or admit that one doesn't know something, which I always do--and Appletrees or other editors with greater Korean-language skill are almost always able to fill in the missing information. As always, we should work together collaboratively but your "outing" of personal details about me was absolutely reprehensible and you (who are editing from an anonymous IP address) should not do something like that again. Badagnani (talk) 22:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I see that you have again done research about me on the Internet and presented those details just above, for a second time, after having been asked not to do so. As you had earlier been informed, this is unacceptable and you have been reported for this. Badagnani (talk) 22:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

What a load of crap from 76.117.160.36. Badagnani, you've done nothing wrong. Please keep up the good work! --Kjoonlee 03:59, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

To add
Onmyeon (온면, buckwheat noodle soup). Badagnani (talk) 23:39, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Cheonsachae
Are cheonsachae made from kombu? It's much more likely if they're clear and jelly-like that they're made of carrageenan, an agar-like substance made of Irish moss. Badagnani (talk) 18:52, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Hope to have an answer to this. Badagnani (talk) 04:48, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Gamja kalguksu
I just bought a package of gamja kalguksu. Should this be mentioned here, or at Kalguksu? Badagnani (talk) 04:48, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

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