Talk:Koreatown, Los Angeles/Archive 1

Keep Koreatown and Wilshire Center pages distinct
Even though everyone in the area refers to most of Wilshire Center as "Koreatown", they ARE distinct historically. Please only list buildings on the page referring to the district in which they are located. I would rather see several notices on the "Koreatown" page saying "See Wilshire Center article" than have the two pages duplicate a lot of information. Downtowngal (talk) 23:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Wilshire Center no longer exists, except maybe as just the buildings that front Wilshire between Hoover and Wilton - a sub-neighborhood of Koreatown at this point despite its historical importance. I'd rather see Wilshire Center be a part of the Koreatown Page. EmergentProperty (talk) 20:06, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This discussion continues at Talk:Wilshire Center, Los Angeles, California. EmergentProperty (talk) 00:37, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Significant Updates Needed for the Koreatown Page
This article leaves A LOT to be desired. It needs signficant rework. I'd be happy to help. Who else has spent a lot of time on this page? WangKon936 (talk) 20:54, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Harbor City, Los Angeles, California which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 19:31, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Interested editors can also comment at Talk:Los Angeles Purplebackpack89  (Notes Taken)  (Locker) 22:39, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

image overload
I think the images need to be scaled back in this article. Articles aren't meant to be galleries, see WP:NOT and WP:IUP. Having images running up and down both sides of the article pushes it into the excessive range.If the article is too short to support all the images on one side it is an indication that there shouldn't be that many images in the article until it is expanded.--Crossmr (talk) 15:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

community organizations
This article is missing links and descriptions of koreatown's wonderful community based organizations. Please add and update. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.181.174.122 (talk) 20:11, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Location?
The article gives no clear indication WHERE this community is located. Especially if you aren't from LA. Any street names? Even if there's no "official" boundary of Koreatown, there should at least be some indication where roughly the neighborhood is located. 81.62.19.1 (talk) 20:46, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

History
I agree that a lot of this article mixes up things...did the Korean history of the area start in the mid-60s, with the 1965 easing of immigration restrictions on East Asians? There were certainly Koreans around LA, some very influential, An ChangHo and the An (or Ahn) family, for instance. And Koreans typically move into an area where they have connections already....something must have been there to draw them. --Snow (talk) 01:35, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There were Koreans in LA for many years but not in that neighborhood. The scholars who write on the specific Koreatown neighborhood stress that Koreans arrived after 1965. see for example Caught in the middle: Korean merchants in America's multiethnic cities by Pyong Gap Min Rjensen (talk) 02:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Boundaries
An editor added this definition: However the documents at the linked website pertain to a proposed definition for "Little Bangladesh", not Koreatown. The documents make clear that there is no city-approved definition for Koreatown. Unless there's something else I'm going to revert to the more nuanced text that was there previously.  Will Beback   talk    05:55, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
 * As of August 2010, the City of Los Angeles has set an official boundaries for Koreatown as: Olympic, Vermont, Third Street and Western Avenue.
 * http://cityclerk.lacity.org/lacityclerkconnect/index.cfm?fa=ccfi.viewrecord&cfnumber=08-2885

Los Angeles City Council FIle 09-0606
This was a motion to rename a huge section of Los Angeles "Koreatown." Over a long and protracted discussion, the boundaries were established officially, and are absolutely and clearly defined in a unanimous vote. My reference was wrong, but it has been corrected. From the motion: ''APPROVE the application relative to naming a community Koreatown, bounded roughly by Olympic Boulevard from Western Avenue to Vermont Avenue on the south, Vermont Avenue from Olympic Boulevard to Third Street on the east, Third Street from Vermont Avenue to Western Avenue on the north, Western Avenue from Third Street to Olympic Boulevard, including a business corridor along Western Avenue from Third Street to Rosewood Avenue situated inside the East Hollywood area on the west. The proposed boundaries include both sides of the street.''Historicwilshirepark (talk) 17:15, 19 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I wonder why it was a long and protracted discussion? In any case, 09-0606 seems to be the correct resolution/file/whatever. It's still not an excuse to erase all references to LATimes, it's used in other important citations on the page. tedder (talk) 17:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

The LA Times reference Map disregards the City ordinance, and is misleading. Greater Wilshire Neighborhood Council and hundreds of residents have repeatedly pointed out that the map is in error, but the Times refuses to correct it and also refuses to post comments that point this fact out. If the reference is replaced, I will not interfere, but just be aware that there is very little respect for that reference and its inclusion might call into question the validity of the rest of the page. The city council reference ruling is valid, and should be respected as fact and as law.Historicwilshirepark (talk) 19:36, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * LATimes is being used for things other than the boundaries. Additionally, Wikipedia cares about what reliable sources indicate is truth, not what the truth may be. So the resolution establishes the boundaries, but it doesn't say anything else- like listing the population, ethnic makeup, etc., and LATimes can continue being used for those purposes. tedder (talk) 19:41, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

The LA Times stats are inaccurate because the area described in Mapping LA is not actually Koreatown, as should be pointed out. I'm all for having it in there if it is revealed that it is controversial, has questionable and unscholarly methodology to back it, and does not reflect the official Koreatown area as defined by the mutual agreement of the Korean American Federation, the Wilshire Center/Koreatown Neighborhood Council, the City Council of Los Angeles, among others. The City Council reference has all the documentation needed to prove these facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Historicwilshirepark (talk • contribs) 20:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Great. Find a more reliable source than LATimes. You've given the correct boundaries and a reliable source (the city council). If you can find a more reliable source for ethnic makeup and population, feel free to give it. Simply stating "I know better" isn't helpful; see Amnesia test. tedder (talk) 21:16, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Tedder - you could help me here, if you would. I don't want to do "warring" as it is called, but I do want the information to be as accurate as possible, both on the Wilshire Park page and here. I don't understand what is wrong with my reference to File 09-0606, which you keep removing - it is the City Council minutes, and is valid, and pertinent to the information on both pages, Koreatown and WP. I refer also to Mapping LA, but with a disclaimer on the WP page, after hearing Doug Smith give a presentation trying to explain where he got his stats - it was sad. I have been getting requests to fix both the Koreatown boundary reference, more as an update than anything else, and to cite it on WP. Would you fix it voluntarily? How can I do this without treading on your toes or having you deface our page? And what specifically needed resolution on the WP page? I'd fix it if I knew. Nothing I have written is opinion (most of it was not written by me, only the Mapping LA and City Council 09-0606 part) - all fact, and with references. As an obvious newby, gimmee a boost here!Historicwilshirepark (talk) 21:38, 19 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The 09-0606 reference is in place- here it is. You added it, and it's correct to do so. My problem is removing all other references to LATimes that refer to things other than the boundaries. tedder (talk) 21:40, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Okay - truce! I'm sorry to have tried your patience! I won't touch another word. We will continue to pressure the Times to fix their stats (and THAT'S a-story-and-a-half). And I am more than willing to try to do the requested "cleanup" on WP if you want to point me to some specifics. We can keep each other honest!Historicwilshirepark (talk) 21:54, 19 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I think the big issue here is whether a recently defined official boundary means that longstanding informal definitions become entirely obsolete. The City Council adopted a negotiated definition, but I believe that we should also record other significant definitions. Neighborhoods, especially ethnic neighborhoods, are fluid. In twenty years Koreatown could be largely occupied by emigrants from Bangladesh, Ethiopia, or Panama. (Most of the people now living in Manhattan's Little Italy are Chinese, for example.)
 * As an aside, I think the final document at 09-0606 is instructive of how the city council is run. The final hearing of the Education and Neighborhood Committee, which approved the new boundary, was only attended by one of its three members. I guess those committees do not require a quorum to conduct business.   Will Beback    talk    23:29, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Los Angeles Riots of 1992 - relevant as written?
I understand that a Korean or Korean-American would be interested in the riots, but as (I think) they did not much affect THIS neighborhood (although they surely affected some of the residents), should the section be shortened and readers be directed to the main article on the riots? That would be my choice. Opinions? Sofia Roberts (talk) 01:24, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
 * At least three of the 53 murders were in Koreatown, and the riots certainly spread through the neighborhood. This KoreAm map shows the distribution of damage well too (Found on this page, showing several maps). There's a random sentence or three about the riots on the Bullocks Wilshire building, for instance. tedder (talk) 01:45, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Sources modified on Koreatown, Los Angeles
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I have just attempted to maintain the sources on Koreatown, Los Angeles. I managed to add archive links to 2 2 sources, out of the total 2 I modified, whiling tagging 0 as dead.

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Crime and changing character
The article talks about an "increasing crime rate" prompting an exodus of Koreans. Is that accurate or up-to-date?

Seems like the biggest change in Koreatown right now is gentrification which would normally be associated with a falling crime rate. Furthermore, crime rates are historically decreasing in Los Angeles as a whole so it would be very surprising if Ktown's is increasing. Curiouskiwicat (talk)
 * The changing demographics over the years is complex. While the first part of the sentence can remain, the exodus and crime rate is an unsupported opinion and should be deleted unless both "facts" are substantiated. While the demographics of the residents has changed, newspaper articles explain that many commercial properties are owned by Koreans and the night life is a popular destination for Koreans (and others). The boundaries are somewhat arbitrary as when the community was originally signed, the boundaries were not defined. The current boundaries had to fit amongst the surrounding named neighborhoods that the city had approved. Thanks for you edits. Fettlemap (talk) 18:36, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Wilshire Park Redirects to Koreatown Los Angeles
Wilshire Park's page erroneously redirects to Koreatown. Wilshire Park is NOT in Koreatown, and the editor has hi-jacked the page for reasons undisclosed. This has happened before, with the Wilshire Park page being vandalized in retaliation for correcting these errors. Wilshire Park is not only outside Koreatown, it is not even contiguous. This redirection is a blatant error and violates Wikipedia rules for accuracy.

Wilshire Park is an historic district, recognized in 2008 as an official Los Angeles Historic Preservation Overlay Zone. It is identified in the Thomas Brothers Guides. It has another neighborhood between its eastern boundary and Koreatown, namely Country Club Heights. It is 1/2 mile west of Koreatown, whose official western boundary is Western Avenue, regardless of what the LA times says. This redirection is groundless.

The renaming of Koreatown as originally proposed was rejected as an over-reach by the City Council in which nine Neighborhood Councils were affected without being consulted, several of them containing 100-year-old historic districts named for prominent Los Angeles pioneers when subdivided in the early 1900s. At the time there were many objections from other ethnic communities which were taken into account by the Council. Most residents were not presented with the petition for this proposed renaming. After strong public objection, a compromised was reached, and the applicant agreed to the boundaries listed below, which DO NOT include Wilshire Park. However, the Wilshire Park wiki has essentially been hi-jacked, as if the 2010 ordinance is valueless and invalid in the opinion of the editor of this page. Wilshire Park has a right to its own page without fear of this type of malicious activity.

Here is the proof. From the Los Angeles City Council files on case 09-0606: the following was voted on and passed overwhelmingly 8/23/2010: 12 for, 0 against, 3 not present. The boundaries are very clearly stated and are not a subject for debate.

COMMUNICATION TO: LOS ANGELES CITY COUNCIL FILE NO. 09-0606 FROM: COUNCILMEMBER PAUL KREKORIAN, CHAIR EDUCATION AND NEIGHBORHOODS COMMITTEE COMMUNICATION FROM CHAIR, EDUCATION AND NEIGHBORHOODS COMMITTEE relative to an application to name a community Koreatown.

Recommendations for Council action: 1. APPROVE the application relative to naming a community Koreatown, bounded roughly by Olympic Boulevard from Western Avenue to Vermont Avenue on the south, Vermont Avenue from Olympic Boulevard to Third Street on the east, Third Street from Vermont Avenue to Western Avenue on the north, Western Avenue from Third Street to Olympic Boulevard, including a business corridor along Western Avenue from Third Street to Rosewood Avenue situated inside the East Hollywood area on the west. The proposed boundaries include both sides of the street.

2. INSTRUCT all relevant departments to perform the necessary requirements to effectuate the naming of this community, including, but not limited to, the installation of signs. Fiscal Impact Statement: Neither the Chief Legislative Analyst nor the City Administrative Officer have completed a financial analysis of this report. Community Impact Statement: None

SUMMARY In the application submitted on February 10, 2009, the community boundaries were listed as Melrose Avenue on the north, Pico Boulevard on the south, Vermont Avenue and Hoover Street on the east, and Crenshaw Boulevard and Wilton Place on the west. In a transmittal dated May 18, 2009, the Bureau of Engineering stated that the area described in the application is a part of Country Club Park, Koreatown, Pico Union, Wilshire Center, Hancock Park and Melrose community areas. The Bureau also noted that the proposed area extends into the Olympic Park Neighborhood Council (NC), Pico Union NC, MacArthur Park NC, Greater Wilshire NC, Olympic Park NC, and Wilshire Center - Koreatown NC areas.

On April 13, 2010, this matter was considered by the Committee. Members of the community were opposed to the community naming request. The Committee continued this matter in order to give the various parties an opportunity to discuss their concerns and to develop a resolution.

At a regular meeting held on August 11, 2010, the Education and Neighborhood Committee revisited the application request. Members from the community and the applicant informed the Committee that after extensive discussions, a compromise was reached, and requested that the Committee approve the revised boundaries for the Koreatown community to be as follows: Olympic Boulevard from Western Avenue to Vermont Avenue on the south, Vermont Avenue from Olympic Boulevard to Third Street on the east, Third Street from Vermont Avenue to Western Avenue on the north, Western Avenue from Third Street to Olympic Boulevard, including a business corridor along Western Avenue from Third Street to Rosewood Avenue situated inside the East Hollywood area on the west.

An opportunity for public comment was held. The Chief Legislative Analyst provided background information for the Committee. After the discussion, the Committee recommended Council approve the application with the amended boundaries. This matter is now forwarded to the Council for its consideration. Respectfully submitted, PAUL KREKORIAN, CHAIR EDUCATION AND NEIGHBORHOODS COMMITTEE

Wilshirepark (talk) 06:19, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Various articles announcing the passage of 09-0606 and real information about Wilshire Park can be found here:


 * This issue apparently has a long history of discussion which can be found on this talk page. User:TruthTeller2016Yearly (contrib) boldly edited without seeking consensus. I reverted the page to prior to TruthTeller2016Yearly's edits. Cheers,   Fettlemap (talk) 21:28, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Stop. Just stop.
You unfairly had a page removed that is still not even finished. You have hi-jacked our Wilshire Park page. You have falsely accused a resident of having ties to the City Council creating a conflict of interest. This was totally untrue and fabricated - he is the president of our Neighborhood Association, a non-profit and is not involved in government at all. We are a little, 500 home historic district. And this was done to us before in 2010 - look at the history. What is so awful about us being identified by our own name? Why do you insist that Wilshire Park have no separate identity and be called Koreatown? Why did you plagiarize our copyrighted material? Stop being such a bully. Stop warring. Stop hi-jacking. Please - FREE SPEECH FOR ALL.

Wilshirepark (talk) 00:58, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Other ways to solve this boundary problem.
There are other WP:Reliable sources besides the Los Angeles Times. For those who object to the boundaries as outlined by the Times, you can try to get your side reported in neighborhood newspapers or responsible websites like http://www.laobserved.com/. Once done, Wikipedia then has a source which can easily be used. Sincerely, BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 22:37, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Official size?
This article looks to be using Mapping LA for the size of the neighborhood when officially Koreatown is substantially smaller, what about the official size of the neighborhood AlphaNumerical1 (talk) 20:44, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Right, take a look at the geography section and especially the reference Koreatown, Little Bangladesh Get Actual Borders. The initial designation was just a sign without any description of the borders. Unlike many neighborhoods that are easy to define, the history of the Korean-dominated neighborhoods and businesses has to be recognized by this article. When it came time to define the borders, neighborhoods wanted to retain their individuality rather than being included in the huge Koreatown neighborhood designation. This article recognizes the influence of Koreans extends beyond the "neighborhood as designated by the city" even as the area gains more Latino residents. Fettlemap (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The city of Los Angeles Wilshire Community Plan defines Koreatown as "generally bounded by Eighth Street on the north, Twelfth Street on the south, Western Avenue on the west, and continues east towards Vermont Avenue". Sam Tomato (talk) 01:04, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Wilshire Park, Park Mile, Wilshire Center
Wilshire Park is considered a part of Koreatown by Mapping L.A., which is a reliable source. If there is another WP:Reliable source that says otherwise, we should use it and give here the information therefrom. Thanks so much, BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 02:19, 6 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Wilshire Park, Park Mile and Wilshire Center are not in Koreatown according to the boundaries set by two of the three sources for Koreatown boundaries. Wikipedia should not be giving undue weight to one set of boundaries - the Mapping L.A. project - over the boundaries of other sources - The City of Los Angeles and Google Maps (here are screengrabs from google maps…. [ https://my-bits-of-info.000webhostapp.com/1.png ][ https://my-bits-of-info.000webhostapp.com/12.png ])
 * I am not the only user who has noticed this.


 * These neighborhoods have been removed – by different users - on multiple occasions.


 * (1)"Wilshire Park " and "Park Mile" and “Wilshire Center” were added as Koreatown neighborhoods by BeenAround on December 23, 2015.


 * (2) A user removed all three entries on March 16, 2016.


 * (3) BeenAround added them added them back again on March 19.


 * (4)"Wilshire Park" was removed by a different user on June 22.


 * (5) BeenAround added it back again on September 6.


 * (6) I am now the third user to remove them.


 * Again, Wikipedia should not be giving undue weight to one set of boundaries - the Mapping L.A. project - over the boundaries of other sources - The City of Los Angeles and Google Maps. Phatblackmama (talk) 23:38, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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