Talk:Koskela teen murder

Manslaughter or murder
This may have been lost in translation but the article does not explicitly say what charges the boys were convicted of. It does say all three boys were charged with murder and that two plead guilty to manslaughter and one to assault. But did the court still convict them of the offence of murder, or did it accept the lesser guilty pleas? The Wikipedia naming conventions for murders and articles about murders both require that a murder conviction be entered by the court. If the defendants were only convicted of manslaughter then the appropriate title should include "killing", rather than "murder". As a consequence, I have assessed the article as incomplete/inaccurate because it does not say precisely what offence(s) the court convicted the defendants with. While the police and prosecutors might say this is a murderous act, the court hearing also needs to determine the criminal intent of the defendants, who say they didn't intend to kill the victim, and judge whether both the actions and the intent of the defendants amounts to murder, or not. Also, articles about deaths, killings, or murders usually include the victim's name. While all the boys involved are legally children, is there any reason why the victim cannot be named in this case and their name used in the article title? For example: There are court name suppression orders in place or the jurisdiction has laws that protect the privacy of children, dead people and their relatives. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 01:32, 28 January 2022 (UTC)


 * My understanding is that the name of the victim has not been made public, at least not in reliable sources. Fi-wiki does say that the sentences were given for murder committed as a minor. However, I am quite happy to see that someone at least does notice this irritating tendency of Finns to mistranslate surma as murder (predecessor), which this article also was guilty of, pre-sentencing that is.


 * Would it be possible for you to update the article based on fi-wiki content and sources? --Prospero One (talk) 13:46, 9 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Yes, perhaps the term "murder" is wrong, because although the killing was obviously intentional, it was not pre-meditated. But what should the article be named instead? "Koskela teen killing"? And no, the names shouldn't be mentioned, because they haven't been published in reliable secondary sources. There has been discussion at the Finnish Wikipedia about this too, and the conclusion is that they shouldn't be mentioned. J I P  &#124; Talk 17:15, 9 February 2022 (UTC)


 * I actually don't have an issue with the current name, as there have been sentences given for murder, just that said sentences should be mentioned in the article somewhere. --Prospero One (talk) 18:32, 9 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Refocus. Please answer the question: What charges were the boys convicted of? Until that question is answered with a clear statement in the article about what the court found, nothing else matters. I don't have an issue with an unnamed victim or even the use of the word murder in the title, at the moment, although others might. There are some guidelines about naming murder articles as Murder of (victim name) if there is difficulty finding a common name that is consistent with the sources and other articles. For suspects alleged to have committed a crime the title needs to respect the right to a fair trial but after a conviction, the status changes, because we can report the court's findings. This is the information lacking from the article. Only the Court's decision matters. Once we know what the perpetrators were found guilty of doing, we can argue about the "right" name. In the meantime, I have added some clean-up tags to elicit the information needed and show where it needs to appear in the article. Once this is known, we can think about whether we have a reasonable title. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 08:04, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Neither this article or the original Finnish article actually makes this clear, but at least this source linked from the original Finnish article says the boys were convicted of murder. J I P  &#124; Talk 10:28, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * May I ask what you mean by that? fi:Koskelan teinisurma states (translation mine):

"The verdict was given at the Helsinki court on 3 September 2021. The perpetrator who had used the most violence against the victim was sentenced to 10 years and one month in prison, the youngest defendant was sentenced to nine years two months in prison, and the second youngest to eight years two months in prison for a murder committed as a minor. The verdict is binding, as no attempts to overturn it were handed in within the time limit."


 * Seems quite clear to me? --Prospero One (talk) 13:09, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * I already answered this: Fi-wiki does say that the sentences were given for murder. --Prospero One (talk) 12:48, 10 February 2022 (UTC)