Talk:Kottas

NPOV
This needs a lot of work, it's totally hagiographic in Greek POV-ish. Might wanna check out the BG edition for an entirely different view on this guy. Todor→Bozhinov 18:08, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

This article is too far from the historical facts. Jingby (talk) 14:34, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Here is a laugh
This is very funny yet at the same time sad, his last words were "Živja Grcija, Svoboda ili Smrt". Funny, he says in Macedonian long live Greece. And takes a direct quote from VMRO, Slobod ili Smrt, this is one confused person. :). PMK1 (talk) 14:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "Freedom or death" pre-dates ethnic Macedonian identity with more than a century, sorry. -- L a v e o l  T 15:05, 12 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Give me Liberty, or give me Death!, Eleftheria i thanatos and Svoboda ili smart also predate IMRO... And referring to any Bulgarian dialect as Macedonian in that period is a naive anachronism. But yes, Kote was the very definition of a turncoat more than anything. He couldn't make up his mind all his life whether he supported the Bulgarian or the Greek idea. Todor→Bozhinov 15:36, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

No matter what are views of the facts, the reality doesn't change. This is how things happened, weather you like it or not! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes (talk • contribs) 20:00, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I've been liking the weather in the past few days, but you've got to be kidding me by maintaining that a biased presentation cannot distort a reader's perception even of basic facts. The way it is, the article sucks. You say Kote was a "Slavophone Greek leader", I say he was a greedy good-for-nothing Bulgarian. You've got an opinion, I've got an opinion. The Wikipdia principles are clear: articles should adhere to a neutral point of view, and that is a rule of no exceptions. Todor→Bozhinov 20:14, 12 April 2009 (UTC)


 * What would you suggest then? How about a Macedonian Bulgarian Greek, this way all POV is covered. :p. The problem about this man, was not what he was but rather what he wasn't. This article could very well be moved to Kote Hristov and NOT be on Konstantinos Christou. After all Kote and not Konstantinos was his real name. But who is to say that he did not feel Greek after all, despite not being ethnically Greek. I think that it unfarily potrays the realities of the period, these "bulgarians" would often be his cousins from the same village even! I still find it amusing, that he shouts Long Live Greece in a foreign/enemy language. It is amusing. PMK1 (talk) 22:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Todor, would you go far enough to call him a predavnik? Sadly there are so many prodadeni duši to write about.PMK1 (talk) 22:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * He certainly betrayed IMRO, if that's what you mean. Gotse and Dame had faith in him despite his recurring offences, and he betrayed that faith. Not to mention that subsequently, Kote himself severed Lazar Poptraykov's head. If that's not a traitor, I don't know what is.
 * Oh, and what I suggest is that we don't define him as anything, we merely include undisputed facts: what he did, how he did it, when he did it. Readers can judge for themselves. His name was Konstantin, by the way.
 * Pyraechmes seems to think that Kote was like "I've always been Greek, I just forgot about it", you think he might have been "I wish I was Greek" and I think he was like "Money!". We'll just list the facts, leave the opinions behind. Todor→Bozhinov 06:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I didn't say he was always Greek because I don't know that. I just wrote that finally, he chose the Greek side, as it happened.Chrusts 09:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Todor, it was ALL about the money. Ker-ching :L. Was is this guy who severed Lazar Poptrajkov's head? I really dont see what Pyracheus and other Greeks see in these "Slavophones". Its like you can change ethnicity at the flip of a coin. PMK1 (talk) 12:26, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

He used to say to the villagers: "For us the Macedonians, there are two ways to go: the one is the Bulgarian, which is the easy way, because they promised to us money and welth, and the other is the Greek, it is the way of our heart, but it is difficult, passing through blood and fighting. I think it is worth to choose the second one." Look, nobody tries to change his ethnicity. His ethnicity is written by his actions. If you like to humiliate the Greek heroes, try it in another site.Chrusts 13:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes (talk • contribs)


 * Dont be ridiculous, me and TB were merely commenting on the "Greekness" of Slavophone Greeks. And how this man betrayed the organisation he was originally loyal to and then severed the head of his former associate. Sloboda ili Smrt alright, Sloboda bez glava.
 * Do tell me about the way of the "heart". Funny how these villagers did not even understand language of the heart. PMK1 (talk) 13:32, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

You are talking about the Bulgarian way of view.Chrusts 13:44, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

The day that Markov, ordered K. Christou to kill a Greek patriarchic priest, Konstantinos Christou decided to leave IMRO and join the Greeks. That day, he loathed the Bulgarians and started to fight them. "Douglas Dakin, The Greek Struggle in Macedonia 1897-1913 (Thessaloniki, 1966)"Chrusts 15:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes (talk • contribs)

Proposal
I propose that we move this article to Kote Hristov or Kote Hristov Sarovski. Does anyone agree with this notion? PMK1 (talk) 13:43, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree at all. We are talking for a man who is a hero to the Greeks and traitor to the Bulgarians. Why should we adopt the Bulgarian point of view?Chrusts 13:48, 13 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes (talk • contribs)


 * Well he wasnt excactly a greek so why are we using the Greek name? He couldnt be called a Bulgarian, because he apparently loathed them. So how about redirect to Constantine Chris.? PMK1 (talk) 00:58, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

We use the Greek name because he died for Greece. When he was arrested, the Greek consule of Monastiri tried to liberate him.94.67.154.136 (talk) 05:20, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Who says that he died for Greece? He was charged with crimes and executed in Bitola by the Government of the day. Where is your proof? PMK1 (talk) 08:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

My proof for what?94.67.154.136 (talk) 09:20, 14 April 2009 (UTC) Proof is his words. Or better read memoirs of Georgios Christou Modis94.67.154.136 (talk) 10:37, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Bring it on! We are all ready here for them. PMK1 (talk) 11:04, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I have to scan it first. I don't know if there is on internet. There are some references here:

http://clubs.pathfinder.gr/MAKEDONIKOS_AGON/572690

but they are in Greek.Chrusts 11:31, 14 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes (talk • contribs)

http://www.promacedonia.org/en/lyngos/gm_ms7.html. Something from Modis' writings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.67.154.136 (talk) 12:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Is there any evidence of the Bulgarian or FYROM point of view about his ethnicity? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.67.154.136 (talk) 14:54, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, he is considered a Grecoman by just about anyone but Greeks. He is apparently a pure Slavophone Greek, an oxymoron in itself! :-). PMK1 (talk) 13:12, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

For us the Macedonians, it is a great honor if someone call us Grecoman. Are you sure that Grecomans are not Greeks? Now about the oxymoron: There are turkish-speaking Greeks, albanian-speaking Greeks, latin-speaking Greeks, russian-speaking Greeks, hindi-speaking Greeks etc. It is obvious that there can exist slavic-speaking Greeks, also. Those slavic-speaking Greeks were the core of the Macedonian struggle. Macedonia's freedom is owed to Macedonian slavophone Greeks.Chrusts 20:16, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Dialect
His dialect was local slavic dialect of village Roulia. "Zivjia Gritsja. Slovoda i smir." Was the exact phrase as he told it. Ask the older villagers of village Kottas, now. Why should we argue to this? Can't you accept local dialects or only the official languages? Why don't you co-operate with reality? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes (talk • contribs) 15:21, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Not exactly. Your quote is from a Greek, who probably does not have a good understanding of the Macedonian language. (No offence). The script which is written is NOT the official language. It is still in dialectial form, however "Zivjia" makes not sense as the word live is always rendered with a "Ž" and not a "Z". "Slovoda" is also another word which can be questioned as "Sloboda" is also common in that region. Nobody says "I" for or, "I" means and. Your phrase infact says "Freedom and Death" whereas the Vojovodi of the time shouted "Freedom or Death", nobody wants to be dead when they are free!. Also the word "smir" is rendered with a "T" on the end, and the "i" is likely to be a "ă" or no letter at all, "smrt". This is often how your text is actually said. What are you trying to say, that you are from Rulja and speak the Lower Prespa dialect of Macedonian and therefore know how to correctly say this phrase in Macedonian. Also you should be signing all of your comments on wikipedia with four tildes. :) PMK1 (talk) 00:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

No. I just read it like this, in several books. Maybe you are right.Chrusts 07:11, 15 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes (talk • contribs)


 * It is just that your text made very little sense. thats all. PMK1 (talk) 11:15, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

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Slavophone
Ref 21 (Modes 2004, p. 44) one of the four cited sources for the statement says σλαβόφωνος which means slavophone. Also Greek historiography calls people like Kottas Slavic speakers without delving deeper into whether they spoke Bulgarian or something else. Either way I am not going to waste time arguing over something so trivial, I am just making a factual statement. Catlemur (talk) 08:55, 11 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I understand that the sentence is about how he is regarded in Greece (not in general), so it does seem preferable to use "Slavophone" over "Bulgarophone". -- Local hero talk 18:54, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, the source 6 and 8 call him a Slavophone, not a Bulgarophone. I suggest that the first sentence in the "Background" section be amended to "Though a Slavophone, Kottas had a Greek identity.", as both Greek and foregin sources call him just a Slavophone. Kluche (talk) 20:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)