Talk:Koulis Sterikas

Use of irredentist terms "Northern Epirus" "Cham Albanians"

 * Northern Epirus is a irredentist term. It was not used nor has it been used by the Albanian government. Moreover Sterikas was born in 1922 when Albania's sovereignty was recognised over the contested region. See:


 * Austin. Founding a Balkan State. 2012. p. 94: In the long run, Greek claims of Albanian mistreatment fell on deaf ears, and Britain finally advised its representative in the Conference that further complaints not be heard and that matters be dealt with between the two countries on a diplomatic level. In June 1922, Greece had appealed to the Conference of Ambassadors to enforce the Protocol of Corfu granting autonomy to the southern provinces. In a Foreign Office dispatch to Lord Hardinge, the British ambassador in Paris, Lord Balfour noted that the protocol was ‘In a Foreign Office dispatch to Lord Hardinge, the British ambassador in Paris, Lord Balfour noted that the Protocol was ‘no longer a valid instrument. In the fist place the Epirots themselves violated it in July 1914, by occupying Koritza [Korçë]. In the second place it has been superseded by subsequent enactments . . . It is also noticeable that the Greeks never mentioned the protocol during the time when they thought that Northern Epirus going to fall to them.’ In July 1922, blocked in its attempts to internationalize the problem, Greece finally offered dejure recognition to the Albanian government but included a protest note on the southern frontier.


 * If this becomes a precedent here, then one can easily use the word Chameria for multiple articles especially since the Greek state used the term in its official documents and has actual credence in the historical record unlike the term Northern Epirus. Don't POV push.Resnjari (talk) 18:17, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I wonder why someone can claim that there is POV pushing to mention that a Greek was born in a region which is known as such among his specific ethnic group. In the same fashion any mention to Cham Albanians & Chameria should be removed from Albanian biographies too (I guess massive removals are needed on each article in the Category:Cham Albanians. Alexikoua (talk) 18:20, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * If the region is known as such to his specific group then it should say so in a note below (though with in depth discussion in the talk to determine its not a POV pushing term). Actually, Chameria is not mentioned in most of the biographies. Don't tell ferfies. I went through all the pages of people from the Chameria region of Muslim Albanians and in most no where in the article does it say Chameria. A tag below exists for Cham Albanians etc. I have the Baltsiotis source and he is very credible. The Greek state used the term. Many a article would need Chameria mentioned considering the Greek state used it if we start applying your precedent (show me Wikipedia policy too) of having this POV pushing sentance in the lede "(principal town of Northern Epirus)". Also was Northern Epirus in existence when Sterikas was born in 1922 ? Did Albania have a entity called Northern Epirus for it to warrant its use in the article ? I am curious because in other articles, the state that they where born in is mentioned. Northern Epirus exists only in Greek sources. Please elaborate in detail. Was there a entity called Northern Epirus in Albania in 1922 and did Albania use that term during that time ?Resnjari (talk) 18:41, 12 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Actually, Chameria is not mentioned in any of the biographies. Let me help you with some examples: Aziz Çami, a member of the Çami family, was born in Filiates, modern northwestern Greece (Chameria) in 1893... Thoma Çami was a Cham Albanian leader ... (R.Capari) A member of the Çapari family he was born in modern northwestern Greece (Çamëria)... and many more. Northern Epirus is the region known as such, not an independent state. Thus under the same rationale with Chameria this should be stay there, as the place of origin of the subject.Alexikoua (talk) 18:49, 12 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Let me assist you there as some bits are overlooked. Regarding Aziz Çami, he was born in 1893 and the country was the Ottoman Empire. Turkish sources recognise the term Chameria (though given in Turkish rendering Çamlık see pages: 54-55; and so do Western ones about the Ottoman Empire: . Aziz Çami was born in the Ottoman Empire that used the term. No issue there. Thoma Çami was also born in the Ottoman Empire too. Anything pre 1912, and the Ottoman state used the term Chmaeria (rendered as Çamlık). From 1912-1939, during the whole interwar period the Greek state used the term Tsamoiria for the area above the Acheron in all official state documents. There is no doubt about the existence of a region called Chameria and was known as such by succeeding states until 1939. What are your sources that in 1922, when Sterikas was born, that there was a entity called "Northern Epirus" in Albania and two that the Albanian state used the term officially or for that matter informally ? You so far have not given details that give a sufficient answer.Resnjari (talk) 19:04, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * According to your neutral fashion Chameria should stay as such because it was recognized by Ottoman Empire (though never an Ottoman admninistrative unit named as such), but Northern Epirus should not because it's not recognized by Albania. That's your pernonal policy which has nothing to do with wikipedia, not to mention that you promote your own ethnic- povish terminology based on self-created rules. Even if Northern Epirus isn't recognized as an administrative unit by Albania this is irrelevant with wikipedia, it's still a historical-geographic term widely used among people that belong to the ethnic group of the subject. There is no reason to avoid mention the Sterikas was born in Korce, Albania (Northern Epirus region): He was Greek and among Greeks the geographic-cultural context is correct. The same rationale happens with Albanians from Chameria, although you prefer to avoid this fact.Alexikoua (talk) 19:14, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * First of its not my "pernonal policy" and please do not place a interpretation like "neutral fashion" on my points which so far i have presented peer reviewed sources unlike you. The Ottoman state and the succeeding Greek one were aware of the term and with regards to the Greek state they employed it in all official documentation until 1939 for the area above the Acheron. Yes, no actual territorial unit existed as such however those states did recognise the reality of Chameria and employed the term extensively (especially Greece). Though there was no territorial unit called "Northern Epirus" within Albania, where is your evidence that Albania, the country, used the term for that area officially in state documents or other (officially and informally) for the region for when Sterikas was born in 1922 or onward ? You say that "historical-geographic term widely used among people that belong to the ethnic group of the subject" is a misnomer. The term as Roudemtof points out was one conceived by the Greek army with political motivations (in 1919)  that later became adopted into wider Greek discourse . Korce is in Albania, not Greece last time one checks a map, so Greek discourse does not apply here. There are many terms in Albanian discourse for parts of Greece that one can use if we take your rationale on board. So like i asked of you, did the Albanian government use the term for that area (even if no territorial unit existed) officially in documentation or other (officially and informally) so for it to stay in the lede ? Please give a reply that is based on peer reviewed material >WP:reliable.Resnjari (talk) 19:53, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately it's not a case of recognition by a state, which is just your personal view on the subject. Northern Epirus is widely established as a historical-geographical term in the context of the local Greek community. Inline citation by R. Clogg is fine, although a mountain of western bibliography confirms that geographically this reason is known as such among local Greeks. The case of recognisition and official state policy (whether by totallitarian regimes or not) is completely irrelevant. Wikipedia doesn't follow local national policies of cencorship in general.Alexikoua (talk) 20:40, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Again, it is considering that in 1922, Korce was in Albania. Also Albania was not run by a totalitarian regime in 1922. Please don't make facts up. Wikipedia is about facts, not the dream of POV pushing past irredentism. In many biography articles on Wikipedia, the then name and the state the person found themselves in is given for a person born there i.e Giuseppe Schirò, Hasan Prishtina, Ferhat Bey Draga etc, not the name of what that community had for a settlement or the name of a territorial unit. Was "Northern Epirus" a real entity during that time and was such terminology used by the Albanian state of which Korce found itself in for the "Northern Epirus" bit to be there ? Its important as peer reviewed material points to it being a political term used by non Albanians with irredentist connotations. Clogg says nothing about its use by the Albanian government in a territorial sense or its official use. Your mountain of "sources" that you still have not placed says nothing about whether one, the Albanian state had a official territorial unit called "Northern Epirus" and absent that, two whether the Albanian state used the term "Northern Eprius in any official and non-official capacity? The views of the Greek minority here don't count. This is not an article about the Greek minority or Northern Epirus, but about a person born in a place. What does placing Northern Epirus in lede have to do in this article when no such entity was recognised internationally or by Albania itself in any capacity ? Comments such as this "Wikipedia doesn't follow local national policies of cencorship in general." are that without explanation. Again please provide peer reviewed sources when basing your comments (not opinion) and also to the concerns i have outlined.Resnjari (talk) 21:00, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Again, although Korce was 1922 in Albania & not a tottalitarian regime (too weird to insist on something that's not questioned in this discussion) it's a well established term among local Greeks and widely used in western bibliography in this context. Thus in this case when a Greek is born in Albania, in this very region, this has to be stated. You simple confuse that with government policies and promote a double-standart approach of irrendentist terminology. Alexikoua (talk) 21:12, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * "Local Greeks", "widely used in western bibliography in this context" ? Again you have not provided peer reviewed sources to that effect. As the territory is in Albania and the city in question, did the Albanian state use the terminology of "Northern Epirus" during that time for it to qualify it being in the article? Was there an entity with such a name existing in 1922 in Albania? As for the totalitarian thing, you claimed it, not me so i thought i would clarify. Elaborate on these matters using proper qualified peer reviewed material that is from non-nationalistic scholarship. Your answers so far constitute WP:or. Also if you are referring to Chameria as a "double standard" that is absolutely not the case. I will remind you again of Dr. Lambros Baltsiotis research regarding Chameria: "The official name of the area north of the Acheron river is Chamouria in all Greek state documents for the whole Interwar period." See: http://ejts.revues.org/4444 . Use of Chameria in Cham Muslim biographies is warranted until 1939 as the Greek state officially used the term and so was it acknowledged by the Ottoman state too. As Wikipedia is not about propaganda, did the Albanian state use the term "Northern Epirus" in a official and non-official capacity for its use to be warranted in this article? Please provide answers as sources point to the term being conceived for political purposes by Greek circles.Resnjari (talk) 21:28, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Seems you are confused about official government policies. Again this has nothing to do with official policies, but what's important here is that Northern Epirus is a widely established term in western bibliography under this context.Alexikoua (talk) 21:33, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Even taking into account the so-called "official policy" view, the Albanian government recognized Northern Epirus as an autonomous state (Chameria was never an autonomous & not even an administrative entity by the way) in May 1914, thus we can't pretend that it's a non-existent term under this limited scope. Even more, it's 100% reasonble to mention that a Greek-born came from this region. Off course there is no need for such hardcore cencorship in wikipedia & avoid the use of ethnic-geographic terms when appropriate.Alexikoua (talk) 21:37, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * WP:or type answers of "is 100% reasonble" don't suffice. Back yourself up with peer reviewed sources, not conjecture. You write: "the Albanian government recognized Northern Epirus in May 1914". True and as i cited Austin. Founding a Balkan State p.94 (in the very first comment) Greece and the International community recognised the territory as being part of Albania in 1922. Moreover within that recognition there was nothing about a "Northern Epirus" entity existing within Albania. If anything the great powers like England said clearly that Northern Epirus was a forfeit matter and so was the Protocol of Corfu. So again, did the Albanian government at this time or thereafter use the term "Northern Epirus"" in any official or unofficial capacity, as Greece did with the toponym Chameria ? (Also the word Chameria long after the area was incorporated into Greece was used in all official government documentation until 1939. The Greek state recognised that Chameria existed and it is not "so called". Don't place your interpretation on a peer reviewed source and scholar unless you have a peer reviewed source disclaiming that scholar or their research. Wikipedia is firmly NOT in favour of original reaserch. Nonetheless, please provide peer reviewed material here regarding your comments (as for now they constitute WP:or) otherwise the Northern Epirus bit will be deleted.Resnjari (talk) 21:51, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually the one that insists on weird claims is you: So you need to support the claim why a person that belongs to X community shouldn't be mention as such? Off course the so-called local official policy appears too weak as an argument to adopt such a hardcore national approach in wikipedia and nothing more than extreme one-sided original research in favor of Chameria.Alexikoua (talk) 21:58, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Alexikoua, i never said anything about Sterikas not being called a "Northern Epirote". He clearly thought of himself as a non-Albanian. Note in my comments, i have never said that the tag down below in the article regarding Northern Epirotes should be removed. And if this individual identified as a northern epirote later in life that is fine to reference (provided there is a peer reviewed sourced in an inline.) My issue is with the lede sentence discussing the town of Korce as being in Northern Eprius in 1922, when Greece and the international community (which explicitly stated the Corfu protocol to be defunct) recognnised the region as being part of Albania and there was no internal territory(and terminology) called "Northern Epirus" recognised as such by the Albanian state, Greece (on an official outward level) and the International community. Also regarding Chmaeria, Baltsiotis is a peer reviewed academic who works at Panteion university in Athens and to date i have yet to come across someone challenging his researching, unless you have someone. He has done extensive work in the Greek state archives regarding Chameria and Chams in general. Once again you have resorted to wp:or when you say "so-called local official policy appears too weak as an argument to adopt such a hardcore national approach in Wikipedia and nothing more than extreme one-sided original research in favor of Chameria." Once again i will quote to you Baltsiotis: "The official name of the area north of the Acheron river is Chamouria in all Greek state documents for the whole Interwar period." It can not be more clearer than that. Now i ask again, did the Albanian state use "Northern Epirus" as a term in a official and non-official capacity for the area during that time when Sterikas was born, (as Korce is in Albania then and now and not in Greece)? Please answer using peer reviewed non-nationalistic scholarship to address the concerns i have outlined (and as i have also done the extensive courtesy of making my points using peer reviewed scholarship.Resnjari (talk) 22:18, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The issue isn't about official policy but about the background of the subject. If he was a non-Greek from Korce there would be no reason to mention Northern Epirus. However, because of his background this is justified. A more precise wording may be fine in order to mention that he is a Northern Epirote or from a region known as such among his co-ethnics.Alexikoua (talk) 22:36, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * That is different and i can accept that. As it stood before it was POV pushing as the peer reviewed literature clearly shows that at that point in time Korce was in Albania and recognised as such. No "northern Epirus", as it is a controversial term from the outset too. It isn't like Chameria (in various renderings in different local languages) that was used by all sides until 1939. On a separate note, sometimes things can be resolved very easily, without having to resort to this ammount of time and effort. Unlike many other editors i do not bring crap sources, but ones from reputable academics. Please next time take them into consideration and the concerns i have. I don't say no for the sake of saying no. The article must reflect facts and good material.Resnjari (talk) 22:44, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I wonder what makes you feel that Korce might be non-Albanian. The precise wording was clear: Sterikas born in Korçë, southern Albania (Northern Epirus). Northern Epirus is relevant in this context, but not as an administrative unit & a brief explanation shed some light on this. Chameria, by the way although used in official Greek correspodence wasn't an admnistrative unit too.Alexikoua (talk) 23:31, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * He moved at a young age in Greece and that means his family is Greek? You have any reference on that?--Mondiad (talk) 00:18, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Alexikoua, i remind you that comments such as "I wonder what makes you feel that Korce might be non-Albanian." constitute WP:or and also remind you about Wp:civil. I based my concerns clearly and backed them up with peer reviewed material unlike you for instance. The boundary commission recognised that Korce had a majority Albanian population and in the data of the era by independent high ranking diplomatic observers on the ground like from then pro-Greek states like the USA). See: Austin pages 92-96 Founding a Balkan State. He is a peer reviewed source who has looked at the archive of the day for once. And yes you might cite Greek statistics, but as Roundmentof points out the were produced by the army and where "biased" (his words). Don't place your take on peer reviewed material. Find peer reviewed non-nationalistic material when you make your point about controversial matters. Wikipedia is not about fluff, but facts. The difference between "Northern Epirus" and Chameria is very clear and simple. The former was a politically conceived term by the Greek army and spread later to the Greek speaking world that had very clear irredentist connotations, while Chameria was used to quote Baltsiotis again in 'all official Greek state documents of the interwar period (not correspondences which is a word you use). There was no official territorial unit called Chameria or Tsamouria, though throughout the interwar period, the Greek state recognised Chameria as a reality for the area above the  Acheron. Otherwise why use the term ? Was the Greek government supporting Albanian irredentist claims ? Albania has not used the term "Northern Epirus" in any of its official or unofficial documents etc when the international community recognised its sovereignty over the area onward. That is the position kept and amongst Albanian speakers they do not refer to the area as "Northern Epirrus" not even in a hypothetical historical sense.Resnjari (talk) 08:31, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Res: When a section starts like that: born in Korçë, southern Albania (Northern Epirus) a reader understands that Korce is part of a country called Albania. What's disruptive here is that an editor pretends that we have WP:or and Wp:civil in a typical wp:POV fashion to overemphasize his addiction to Chameria & other similar ultranationalistic ideals.Alexikoua (talk) 09:39, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Once again you are resorting to WP:or without giving peer reviewed scholar non-nationalistic backing your claim of "southern Albania (Northern Epirus)". If you are so confident about that then why did you feel after i went into the matter in depth to change it to "(known as Northern Epirus among Greeks)"? Like i said, did the Albanian government (officially and informally) use the term "Northern Epirus for it to stand in the article as a official term for the area? To date you still have not given anything to that degree. Moreover once again i will remind you of policy wp:civil and not to call my concerns an "addiction" (considering especially that i have made my points using peer backed scholarship). Comments such as "Chameria & other similar ultranationalistic ideals." do not suffice. I have pointed out to you very clearly that the term Chameria was used by Greek government in a official capacity (in  all state documents relating to the region as clearly noted by Baltsiotis) during the interwar period. You have not provided any credible/reliable source/s saying that the Albanian government used any such term as "Northern Epirus" for the area for it to warrant the inclusion in an article in the format as "southern Albania (Northern Epirus)". Again please provide peer reviewed material. Did the Albanian government (whose sovereignty over the area was recognised by Greece and the international community use the term Northern Epirus in the time period cited in this article ?Resnjari (talk) 10:13, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The ultranationalistic rhetoric to remove the home place of the subject subsided once a more precise definition was introduced. If the Albanian or Greek governments recognized a region under a spevific name is completely irrelevant in this case. I've provided multiple examples of biographies where the subject is mentioned as being a Cham Albanian. Thus, in the same fashion someone born in Northern Epirus should be mentioned as Northern Epirote.Alexikoua (talk) 14:16, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The "Cham" is a tribal/linguistic/and cultural sub-entity of south Albanians, just like the Labs. Chameria doesn't necessary mean "a place in today's northern Greece we should claim", hoops, let's invent an identity. The Chams have been always distinct from the rest of the Tosks, even when there was no Albania and no Greece. There is a part of Chameria that lays in Albania as well. Northern Epirus is a geographic term used by Greece from 1913 and on to denominate territories that they claimed and could not get, even though there is no Greek minority, i.e. in Kolonja, or historically goes more with Illyria and Macedonia rather than Epirus, i.e. Korce and Starova do no fall within former Epirus territory.
 * Nevertheless, the debate Northern Epirotes and Chams is far larger that this article. Since the Greek editors are using the "Northern Epirote" term to specify ethnicity,, do you have any reference that he was born in a Greek family? Or that he was a Greek by ethnicity? So far what we know from references is that he was born in Korce in the '20s. And that he was a Greek painter. That's all.--Mondiad (talk) 19:56, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes it does. For the following reason, Korce at that time was part of sovereign Albania, not an entity called Northern Epirus. It is very relevant to the issue. Otherwise i can plonk on any article i wish regarding say Albanians from Macedonia because the term Illirida has become fashionable in some quarters. But "Ilirida" is a nationalist term and the term was never real in the sense in being used at a certain point in time by any particular government that relates to the content of the said article. The community  who use it don't count except say the article on that particular term like as in Northern Epirus. Moreover if we take your line of thought, we can plonk at will in articles the term "Aegean Macedonia" since it is used by Macedonians as the region is known by that name to them. I am sure for the sake of fairness you would have no issue with that? Anyway, Sterikas was born in 1922, when both the Greek government and international community recognised the region as part of Albania. Moreover alongside that recognition, there was the recognition that the Protocol of Corfu was null, void and defunct. Something that has remained ever since. Furthermore this is what peer reviewed Kallvretakis had to say of the matter (considering he has done of the largest study of the Greek presence in Albania and demographic studies of ethnic structures of the area to date). Of the term Northern Epirus he states:


 * Kallivretakis, Leonidas (1995). "Η ελληνική κοινότητα της Αλβανίας υπό το πρίσμα της ιστορικής γεωγραφίας και δημογραφίας [The Greek Community of Albania in terms of historical geography and demography ]." In Nikolakopoulos, Ilias, Kouloubis Theodoros A. & Thanos M. Veremis (eds). Ο Ελληνισμός της Αλβανίας [The Greeks of Albania]. University of Athens. p. 30. Επισήμως, το αλβανικό κράτος απορρίπτει την ύπαρξη «Βορείου Ηπείρου», θεωρώντας ότι ο όρος αυτός θέτει εμμέσως ζήτημα ένωσης με τη Νότια. Αναγνωρίζει αντιθέτως «ελληνική μειονότητα στην Αλβανία». Ο «βορειοηπειρωτικός» χαρακτηρισμός χρησιμοποιείται ευρέως από τα αντίστοιχα σωματεία και επιτροπές που εδρεύουν κυρίως στην Ελλάδα και εκφράζουν κύκλους εκπατρισθέντων Βορειοηπειρωτών. Είναι αξιοσημείωτο τέλος ότι τμήμα της επί τόπου μειονότητας διατυπώνει αντιρρήσεις για το χαρακτηρισμό «Βορειοηπειρώτης» και αντιτείνει πατριωτικότερα, εκείνον του «Έλληνα», βάσει του σκεπτικού ότι ακόμα και στην περίπτωση που υπάρχει γεωγραφική περιοχή οριζόμενη ως Β. Ήπειρος, τότε «Βορειοηπειρώτες» είναι, φυσικώ τω λόγω, όλοι οι κάτοικοι της, Αλβανοί, Βλάχοι ή Έλληνες• η χρήση συνεπώς του όρου συσκοτίζει την ελληνική ιδιαίτερη παρουσία. [Officially, the Albanian State rejects the existence of 'Northern Epirus', believing that this term raises indirectly associates the issue with the South. It identifies in contrast the 'Greek minority in Albania. "The "Northern Epirus" classification widely used by the respective unions and committees are mainly based in Greece and expressed by expatriate circles from Northern Epirus. Remarkably in the end that part of the on-site minority objected to the designation "Northern Epirot" and contends the homeland, that of 'Greek', on the grounds that even if there is a geographic area defined as N. Epirus, then 'Northern Epirus' is, naturally an interim result, all residents, Albanians, Vlachs and Greeks; hence the use of the term obscures the Greek special presence.]


 * The article here is not about pushing a term that was borne out the Greek army with a political agenda and one that is used mainly by groups who are in Greece, while (Greek) locals in Albania even in the 1990s weren't in favour of its use. This comment is a misnomer "I've provided multiple examples of biographies where the subject is mentioned as being a Cham Albanian." I have not made any reference to removing the tags down below for what this person may identify themselves as. My point has been -if one goes over my comments- about the matter pertaining to Korca and the words "Northern Epirus" being next to it. Also in the biographies of Cham Albanians, that's what they called themselves. That has nothing to do with matter just like the Northern Epirotes tag. Again you have not brought any peer reviewed sources that shows the state of Albania using the term "Northern Epirus" for it to be in article such as this. Also your comment "ultranationalistic rhetoric" goes for the one who has not provided any proper peer reviewed sources to make their point, but counting on others to take their word for it. Again please provide peer reviewed material. Did the Albanian government (whose sovereignty over the area was recognised by Greece and the international community use the term Northern Epirus in the time period cited in this article ?Resnjari (talk) 15:19, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Local Greeks are in fact in favor of this term and they self identify as such, Northern Epirotes in general applies to Greeks that come from the specific region (Sterikas included). Off course the issue of "official policy" is completely irrelevant in this article.Alexikoua (talk) 21:01, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I dont know if you bothered to read Kallivretakis there, but since he is a qualified scholar who did extensive fieldwork (and this study is cited by other Greek scholars), even in the 1990s local Greeks in Albania weren't particularly keen on using "Northern Epirus" much. Your claims as so far in this discussion are unfounded and based on opinion, your opinion. Comments such as "Local Greeks are in fact in favor of this term and they self identify as such," are original research and i direct you to that policy in case you are not familiar with it > wp:original. As for "Northern Epirotes in general applies to Greeks that come from the specific region (Sterikas included)." if you read my comments, it has never referred to the tag below the article about people who identify as "Northern Epirotes" or about its removal. Frankly what individuals call themselves has no bearing to this article. The matter of contention is about the place in the lede regarding the term "Northern Epirus" alongside the word Korce. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, information should be not based on what a lobby group pushing a certain position might be but facts. In 1922, Greece and the international community recognised the sovereignty of Albania over the region. They also did not recognise from that point onward any entity called Northern Eprius is be a real territorial unit or other within Albania. Three, Albania has not used the term "Northern Epirus" in any of its documents (unlike Greece of Chameria during the interwar period. For example any Muslim Cham Albanian person born 1939 and there after on Greek soil cannot have Chameria in the article as the Greek state stopped using the term in any official capacity for its territory. Only applicable when used.). Hence any mention of the term Northern Epirus here is POV pushing and without foundation. It must be removed. You have not proved any peer reviewed material answering my concerns and all your commentary points to original research which is very disappointing. What terms are used in Greece for regions that fall outside Greek sovereignty is not relevant to this article. Since your case is all based on original research, please remove Northern Epirus from the lede. There is nothing ambiguous about the matter like say the Kosovo name dispute (as covered in Wikipedia with a note). The sources are very clear about Albanian sovereignty and say nothing about the area being known by other names apart from in Greece (which have no bearing as Greece was not recognised as having sovereignty over the area).Resnjari (talk) 21:32, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * What the local Greeks like or not is subject to books which study Balkan identities, it does not represent a standard which would be accepted by an encyclopedia. The Albanians in Kosovo call themselves Kosovars, as well the Serbs in Kosovo call themselves something similar to define where they're from. That does not mean that Wikipedia recognizes the word "Kosovar" to automatically imply Albanian ethnicity.--Mondiad (talk) 21:12, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * @Resnjari: Since we agree with the current version any research about the history of official policies is a waste of time in the scope of this biography.Alexikoua (talk) 21:01, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I did till you decided to take it further and then i looked into the matter further (using peer reviewed research outlined in my above comments) and you have not provided any peer reviewed research backing your position and instead resorted to original research. "Northern Epirus" needs to be removed from the lede. In 1922 (when Sterakis was born), the region and Koroce city was recognised as Albania by Greece and the international community. "Northern Eprius" was not recognised in any official (or international)capacity or even by the Albanian government (officially and unofficially) and the Corfu protocol was null, void and defunct (a position and reality that has remained until today, even though some when presented even with proper peer reviwed sources have a different idea). What Greeks call the region has not bearing upon this article. As until now you have not backed your position using peer reviewed material, please remove the POV pushing term "Northern Epirus" from the article lede.Resnjari (talk) 21:32, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Are you guys sure this Sterikas is notable? Never heard of him. --MorenaReka (talk) 01:30, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * He is a small time artist. I went to Fllorina some years back saw some of his paintings. There ok by Balkan standards, if you know what i mean. Best.Resnjari (talk) 21:32, 14 December 2015 (UTC)