Talk:Kourosh Zolani

For those of you who have arrived from the AfD discussion...
..a reminder that WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA apply here, as well. TFOWR 19:26, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

WP:NONENG
Discussions to either support the article or recommend closure must take place in the proper AfD forum. The article's talk page is simply to discuss improvement of the article. While it is true that foreign sources may be used in articles. The conversations using this article to deny responsibility to translate are being taken out of context. Here is the WP:NONENG policy in whole:


 * Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources should be used in preference to non-English ones, except where no English source of equal quality can be found that contains the relevant material. When quoting a source in a different language, provide both the original-language quotation and an English translation, in the text or in a footnote. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians. When citing a source in a different language, without quotations, the original and its translation should be provided if requested by other editors: this can be added to a footnote, or to the talk page if too long for a footnote. If posting original source material, editors should be careful not to violate copyright; see the fair-use guideline.

This is a BLP, of which we required strict adherence to the policy regarding sources. Many statements have been made in, about, and around the subject of this article that cannot be verified. I have requested translation. Accordingly, before notability can be established, translation must be provided. Policy clearly states that if requested by other editors, the original content AND the translation must be provided. If they cannot be provided, then the unsourced material must be deleted. Short of that, this article fails notability and verifiability. No reliable sources are available to support inclusion. It's not personal, it's just policy. Cindamuse (talk) 00:02, 15 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment. Here is the link to the translation of the article in Iran Newspaper. Also, here is the link to the article in Farsi.Sozlati (talk) 23:54, 14 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment. Add this information to the footnotes, using appropriately placed inline citations within the article, or copy the translation to the talk page. Do not simply provide a link to the online translation, because oftentimes these links are removed or experience a location change. This would invalidate the source. Thanks. Cindamuse (talk) 00:30, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * OK fair enough. I'm going to re-add the content with the expectation that some form of translation will be provided within a day or two either to this page or to the article itself using the |quote= parameter. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 08:36, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Conversations continued from this page
First of all, the translation is quite poor. Secondly, it still doesn't back up what you are saying - that he's known for designing and playing the worlds only playable chromatic santur. Thirdly, this is not a third party reference. Please familiarise yourself with Wikipedia's Reliable Sources guidline. This is the last time I will say that references need to be from a third party. If you come up with a third party reference, please place a link to it here. I still think that you are struggling with this because no third party references in English actually exist. Beeshoney (talk) 20:45, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * English language sources are only preferable when they are of equal or higher quality to non-English language sources. If there are only non English sources that is perfectly acceptable per WP:NONENG. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 23:09, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You are mistaken. You are taking the policy out of context. Please refer to my statement above, which provides a copy of the policy in its entirety. This is a biography of a living person. Accordingly, all quotes and statements, and in this case all statements attempting to support notability must be available. This includes providing translations. If translation cannot be provided, then the unsourced material must be deleted. It is to your benefit to find an accurate translation, using reliable sources. If you wish to continue the discussion regarding either supporting or opposing the inclusion of this article on Wikipedia, that conversation must take place in the proper forum. If you simply want to work on the article to offer citations based on reliable sources and include the items that the article needs, then by all means, continued your conversation here. Happy editing! Cindamuse (talk) 00:12, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Translation of the Iran Newspaper piece as requested in August 2010
As it doesn't seem practical to do anything else here is the text in full:

Conversation with Kourosh Zolfagharkhani (Zolani) about chromatic Santour
We should change our Point of view

Kourosh Zolfagharkhani who is graduated from Music college of Art University is currently the Secretary of Arts Group in lnternational Center for Dialogue Among Civiitizations. His B.A. Thesis is dedicated to Santour (Dulcinmer) and the design of chromatic intervals in this musical instrument. His thesis will be published in a separate book in near future. we had an interview with him on chomatic Santour design, the content of which is as follows:
 * Would you please tell us what was your mentality in designing chromatic Santour and what technical changes have you made on this instrument?
 * Well, Santour does not have not high performing capabilities in creating altered notes, and this problem has caused lack of recognition by composers, despite its beautiful sound and rapid technique. In other words, tuning problem in this instrument is an old issue worth consideration. Searching for a new method to achieve performing capabilities in this instrument, led me to a new way of tuning, such that I could tune it through creating chromatic space with two and a half octaves intervals. In this way, I could use the yellow strings behind the bridges, by changing the location of bridges on the surface of Santour. Then, through precise measurement of the location of bridges, dividing the length of yellow strings in a special way, I could reach to the frequencies of positions II & III creating the two and a half octaves chromatic intervals in this instrument. Now I can say that this tuning method is completely operational and I've performed many concerts by this new method of tuning since 1995.
 * What was your initial motivation for making this change ?
 * At the time I entered university, I wrote a piece titled, "lighting" which was a duet for Santour. This piece was making modulation from Isfahan Do to Mahour Do and vice versa. Performing this duet was impossible with traditional Santour. So I decided to solve this problem until I tuned my Santour for performing that piece, such that in all three positions, simultaneously I had la natural and la quarter-tone notes. This piece was performed in 1995 and since then, during 2 years this new method of tuning was improved and changed to a new way of tuning Santour.
 * But you didn't mention the necessity of this change. What is the main cultural necessity for this change?
 * When the infrastructure of thinking, the values and all the factors that people live with, change all together as the result of advancements in the body of knowledge, Art, which reflects the real world changes as well. It confirms the dominating notion or opposes it. As I mentioned the interchangeable effects of society and art have existed all the time. Our music is not an exception, along with current changes that Iranian people experience in their lives, if we don't attempt in correcting and renovating our musical instruments, they will become some antique and decorative objects around us, unable to define our current state and mood. Better say I didn't change Santour to write pieces based on it, but when my musical interpretation resonated with everyday life around me, I found that my pieces are not performable by traditional Santour anymore. There remained just two paths to choose between: forgetting to use this instrument or changing it in a way that it can define my musical aspiration. Obviously I chose the second option.
 * But many people believe that lranian instruments are designed for solo performance and they are complete for this purpose, without any requirement for change.
 * Look, when our understanding to music as an art becomes a reflection of life as we talked about, even creation of a multi-note motif is not an exception. Yes, our instruments have good performing capacity, but what if we get out of this framework? What if we go beyond border of Magham, Dastgah, Radif (Elements of Iranian Music)? In such situation, do our instruments still have complete performing capacity? The more important issue is that some of our instruments have other problems with no relation with capacity in creating altered notes and chromatic musical intervals. For example, consider Tar or Violin like instruments and the instruments with natural skin. As soon as the music hall is occupied by a great number of audience, and the humidity raises, the skin behind the bridge loosen and the performer's problem begins, but have we given it a thought? Of course we shouldn't forget master Ghanbari's endeavors in this field. I believe that we shouldn't look at our cultural belongings with bias, in fact we must derive effective factors out of the tradition with a sensible and precise outlook. Then change the ineffective factors, if they are adaptable, and if they are not we can keep them as a historical cultural memory. It is the same as we maintain our cultural heritage; they have changed to valuable and precious objects which are kept very carefully, but we never use them daily and practically. I want to say that if the musicians do not change their fanatic look towards Iranian music, our music will extinct, and we will become forgotten elements of society with no advocates or listeners. Therefore, we should change our point of view. Of course along with change in our point of view, our musical instruments will evolve too, similar to instruments such as Violin, Horn and Piano which have changed dramatically and reached the current position.
 * -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 08:47, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I worked on the translation to improve its quality. Sozlati (talk) 20:17, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Date of birth
It would be nice to have this information on the page. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 13:53, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Good point, never even noticed it appears to be no source on his date of birth at present. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:00, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * He was born in 1970. Here is the link to the source that I found.
 * Since a couple of editors are sensitive to my edits and continuously question or remove them, I prefer not to add any information to the article. I will post them here. Senior editors, please add them to the article, if you find them useful. Thanks Sozlati (talk) 20:55, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I've added that. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 22:21, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Sozlati, I am sensitive to the requirements in WP:V and WP:RS. This article is on the homepage of an orchestra (and not a very notable one at that). I have no reason to disbelieve that he was born in 1970 or that he played with Master Faramarze Payvar, but if one would claim, for instance, that "Glory of Life, Shabnam, Peaceful Planet, My Childhood Dream and Didar are some of his famous pieces" based on this bio, that is problematic--ask yourself, who wrote that text? and based on what? It's not journalism, it's an artist-submitted, webmaster-of-orchestra-edited text, and it is not the kind of thing we can accept as a claim to fame. Please don't make like you're the victim of some personal vendetta or that you are criticized in any way for pointing to that website. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 14:26, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Education

 * Reference to Kourosh Zolani's education is in Iran Newspaper article: "...is graduated from Music college of Art University" (please see the translation).
 * Reference to "studying classical composition" is provided in this link

Perhaps this part which was removed from the article can be included again? "Zolani left home as a young adult to pursue his passion at the University of Art in Tehran. There, he studied classical composition." Sozlati (talk) 21:16, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I've readded this content - it was easily sourced in the sources already used on this page. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 22:24, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Removal of content from this article
I accept that BLP's are required to be sourced carefully, but unless the material is contentious - and most of the stuff here isn't contentious - it should be bought up on the talk page before being removed as that keeps everyone happy and involved in the process - and noone feels driven off. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 22:32, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The term "contentious" may be subjective in that while one person may view content as contentious, another may see the opposite. As such, policy directs material deemed as contentious to be removed. If you disagree, properly cite using reliable sources and re-add the material to the article. Cindamuse (talk) 04:19, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * True to an extent. However if there is no realistic possibility of anyone getting upset by the content then it isn't contentious. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 07:12, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed the Santour image in the article. The image added by Cindamuse is an experimental Santour. The original Persian Santour dose not look like the one in the image. Thomasshane (talk) 06:29, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Dang. I tried. Do you have a photo that could be added to enhance the article? Cindamuse (talk) 10:14, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * A Flickr search returns no results under an appropriate licence. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 18:00, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Thinking out of the box: A cultural responsibility
You do not need to tune your instrument for every key

Alireza Miralinaghi, Mehr Newspaper, 8 June 2001

Santour players and Santour lovers read this! Kourosh Zolfagharkhgani (Zolani), the Santour player and graduated in music composition from the university, has created a new method of tuning the traditional nine-bridge Santour to reach to the chromatic intervals in this instrument.

This innovative method was discussed on his thesis. Also, he has composed and performed several pieces based on this new method. The performances were videotaped.

In his method to reach to the desired intervals, the bridges on the table of the instrument get rearranged whereas the structure of the resonance box stays the same. Eliminating the limitation in the Santour to participate in more complex music has been always a challenge for the composers and the players. Kourosh Zolani’s method is unique and only one of its kind.

Kourosh explained in the short conversation that he talked about the initial idea with some of the known musicians and none of them encouraged him. One of the well-known music professors even did not give him a chance to explain it and said the idea was impossible. This story is an example of the difficulties that researchers are facing in Iran.

Thomasshane (talk) 22:36, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Radio Appearances
Are these sources sufficient to add the following statement to the article? Senior editors, please add it to the article, if it is useful.

His work has been featured on the radio programs such as the Jon Lewis Show in 6PR 882 Radio station in Perth, Australia, and is now streaming on various Internet radio sessions, including: Mog, Napster , Yahoo music , and Last.fm .

Lead section
I've removed some of the "weasel" tags from the article as examples are clearly given around them (and the relevant edit summaries explain what I've done). I have left one in the lead section - it'd be nice to have some examples of pieces that have been written on his new chromatic santur. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 23:20, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is a very good idea. I noticed that Thomasshane has added some examples. Are these enough and correctly linked or should I look for more examples? Thank you Sozlati (talk) 01:13, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * By all means, add as many as you can. Just don't use weasel/peacock terms such as "several" to present his compositions. Be as specific as possible. Cindamuse (talk) 08:39, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't it be much better to use the term 'several' with 3 or so examples of his compositions in the lead? It seems a bit unnecessary to list every work he's ever done there. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 17:31, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Of note that is why I added the word 'several' this morning to the lead. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 19:06, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree the word 'several' with some examples would be better here. However, I left it to more experienced editors to decide. Sozlati (talk) 19:58, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I have moved all but three pieces into a note, if I haven't picked the best three feel free to move them around. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 17:42, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Third party sources box
There are now 14 footnotes, can this be removed? -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 07:10, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed the tag requiring third party references. While the quality of references could certainly improve, the general contentious material is either removed or sourced accordingly. Cindamuse (talk) 08:36, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

A more accurate D.O.B
If this person is notable (as a lot of people are saying) then we could really do with a DAY, MONTH, YEAR Date of Birth, rather than a year and an age range. If he is notable this shouldn't be hard to find - most other BIO's of notable people have a full Date of Birth. If anyone finds a reference (because I can't) please put a link to it below. Thanks. Beeshoney (talk) 09:56, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * While it would definitely be a good thing to get this information it may well be difficult to find. It may well be that record keeping in rural Iran 40 years ago wasn't up to the standard where such information would be available. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 17:33, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, you have got a point there. It still would be best to have a full D.O.B though. Beeshoney (talk) 17:43, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * A full DOB would definitely be best. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 17:54, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

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