Talk:Kratos (mythology)

God of War
It would be interessant to link this article with the one about God of War(the videogame). It isnt greek mythology, but is based on it. Vermelhored 23:15, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Sources?
''He shows an absolute identification of a slave with his master, taking Zeus' thoughts as his thoughts and Zeus' orders as his

Huh? Where on earth is this information coming from, exactly? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.180.148.27 (talk • contribs) 23:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I, too, find this rather, erm, vague and unreliable information. Could we find any better information on the bloke? Or, where, yes where did that information come from? What and whom are you quoting on this? Shadowcrow (talk) 21:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The whole paragraph raised my eyebrows, as I reached this page from Operation Kratos. Surely it should either be sourced or removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.72.9.25 (talk) 14:48, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Son of Zeus?
The information about him being a son of Zeus an a mortal woman must be erroneous. The article "Pallas (son of Crius)" states: "Pallas is a Titan associated with war. His family tree is disputed. Most sources indicate that he was the son of Crius and Eurybia, the brother of Astraeus and Perses, and the husband of Styx. He was the father of Zelus, Nike, Cratos, and Bia..." If there's some dispute about the matter, can someone please point to me a source stating he was the son of Zeus? If not, I'll edit the article to say he was the son of Pallas and Styx. Shadowcrow (talk) 11:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I'm now fairly sure this is an error. I'm now correcting this to say he was son of Pallas and Styx. See http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Kratos.html. Shadowcrow (talk) 20:56, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

"Popular culture"
This section looks like it was copypasted from a video game magazine. I am personally sure it will be just enough to say "the protagonist of a blah-blah bears the same name but is a totally different character". And that's it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FLYBAT (talk • contribs) 18:10, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 7 April 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the pages at this time, per the discussion below. Favonian (talk) 16:40, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

– The current disambiguation page presents the primary topic as Kratos from God of War, which is obviously incorrect. This is the clear primary topic with historical precedent, if not sheer popularity and interest. Kratos the character's name is obviously based on this mythological individual. ZXCVBNM (TALK) 21:03, 7 April 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dekimasu よ! 10:47, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Kratos (mythology) → Kratos
 * Kratos → Kratos (disambiguation)
 * Support per nom. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  10:43, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:18, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The video game character is the clear primary topic with |Kratos_(God_of_War)|Kratos_(EP)|Kratos_Defense_%26_Security_Solutions 67 percent of the relevant page views. Not every mention of "kratos" is a reference to this rather obscure deity. Kratos is also the Greek word for "rule" (as in democracy). Nine Zulu queens (talk) 15:33, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Support, with qualification Kratos the god is an extremely minor, obscure deity; he briefly appears one time towards the beginning of Aeschylus's Prometheus Bound, where he does not even speak, and never again in the entire corpus of Greek literature, aside from a few places where he is briefly mentioned or alluded to. I therefore actually think that the video game character probably holds greater significance (at least for modern audiences) than the actual god he is named after. Nonetheless, I think that this article could become the primary topic, if it is expanded to include information about the concept from Greek though that the god Kratos is the personification of: the concept of "might" or "power", which is a fairly important concept and, as mentioned above, is the root of our words democracy, aristocracy, and so on. --Katolophyromai (talk) 17:01, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * comment In Modern Greek, kratos means "state, sovereign country". Dimadick (talk) 13:59, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I do not know exactly when it acquired that meaning, but it definitely had it by late antiquity, since I know the word is used in that sense in the Oxyrhynchus Hymn, written in the third or fourth century AD, where at least one translation I read renders the word as "empire." My guess is that the modern meaning probably arose out of the fact that empires wield "power." --Katolophyromai (talk) 14:11, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Not that surprising. The Greek word for emperor is "Autokrator", for empress "autokrateira", and for empire "autokratoria". All derive from the term "kratos". Dimadick (talk) 14:21, 11 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Do we know that the GOW character was named after the mythological diety? From this writeup, it does not appear that the two have much in common. Krat and os are both common Greek word particles. More than one person could have come up with the idea of putting the two together. The mythology article is getting 600 hits a day. That's hard to explain in terms of Kratos' mythological notability. I assume that most of that readership represents misdirected GOW fans. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 05:56, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * While unclear, being the personification of strength and the Greek concept of might and power is pretty good evidence that the name was no coincidence, as Kratos's defining characteristic is his strength in combat.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 21:51, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Support - a namesake should always be primary. Being named after something else is proof of long-term significance. A video game character is of fleeting significance. -- Netoholic @ 03:36, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Relisting comment. To this point the numbers lean in favor of moving these pages, but I am uncomfortable moving the mythology article to the base title over a GA that also gets considerably more page views. Given the counterargument presented by the "support" argument that the mythology article may be a permastub, relisting. Of course, another closer can proceed with a close if he or she disagrees. Dekimasu よ! 10:47, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Support. Deities should nearly always be primary versus their namesakes, IMO, and while we may grudgingly have to deal with exceptions for the major planets, moons, and chemical elements, a video game character shouldn't be primary over the deity he's named after (and in my opinion that's clearly the case). In a few years the video game may be all but forgotten, but the god won't be.  P Aculeius (talk) 12:48, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Support, per P Aculeius, see also WP:RECENTISM. Paul August &#9742; 13:44, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment. WP:RECENTISM enjoins us to "be aware of balance and historical perspective." It is about appropriate emphasis in the way an article is written, not about article titles or primary topics. Those who support this move assume that this obscure deity is the root that gave us the video game character, democracy, oligarch, and so forth. According to Wikitionary, the Greek word is derived from Proto-Indo-European *kret-, not from the deity. You wouldn't trace the concept of superness back to Superman. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 07:31, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * You seem to be confused; the name Kratos is  the word kratos. The have the same etymology, the same history, and the same meaning. The name and the word are the same. The god Kratos is the personification of the word. This is like if someone today were to talk about the goddess Truth reading men's hearts or the goddess Virtue judging men's souls. Kratos is the divine personification of "power" or "strength." --Katolophyromai (talk) 08:48, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Do you realize that this article is specifically about the god, not the general concept of kratía/power? Nine Zulu queens (talk) 09:23, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes. I realize that. I am saying that, if we make it the primary topic, we can expand it to include the concept. --Katolophyromai (talk) 11:06, 17 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Oppose. In no way is the Greek figure the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Even beyond the fact that it has a minority of page views, as, the mythical figure is extremely minor in Greek literature. It's possible the article could be expanded to include material on the Greek concept of authority, but that would essentially be a different article, and at any rate, it hasn't happened yet. Given what we actually have, this is not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.--Cúchullain t/ c 14:55, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Pretty much the same reasons as the other opposes. This Kratos had such a minor role in Greek mythology. The article itself is only a stub and of low importance. Is there really enough information on this Kratos to expand it further? The video game character is a GA with much more readily available information. And like linked by Nine Zulu queens, the video game character obviously has many more visitors than this minor mythological character. There's also no evidence that the video game character was based on the mythological character. If anything, the developers chose the name for what it meant, not for who the mythological character was. There's only been one comparison of the two that I'm aware of, and that was during a documentary about the video game series where it was mentioned how this Kratos had aided in imprisoning Prometheus, where the video game character freed him. -- JDC808  ♫  05:32, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Support This is an interesting test case for recentism in titles. A super minor subject from classical mythology vs. a video game. We can be nearly 100% sure that the god will be the primary topic in a hundred years from now. (Or at least "more primary" than the video game.) But if a subject is *that* much more popular now – and to be fair for a period of several years, this is not a 3 month flash in the pan – then it is hard to support the game character not being primary. At least for now. I was going to !vote that way but 9ZQ's relevant page views link makes me think otherwise; if the timeless topic is still typically getting 1/2 the page views maybe it isn't so lopsided. ErikHaugen (talk &#124; contribs) 16:23, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment By the way the argument that the current article is "only a stub", is irrelevant, as it is the topic that is being considered here, not the current article about the topic. Paul August &#9742; 16:53, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I believe the argument is that this is the only real information there is on the topic–and that therefore it is a permastub, not simply that it is currently a stub. Dekimasu よ! 16:23, 22 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Page view statistics win out here, this Kratos is clearly not the primary topic, as he's an incredibly obscure figure, so disambig page is the correct call (the current status quo).   As a side comment, for that it's not very relevant, but the God of War character is NOT "obviously based on this mythological individual"; it's a random Greek-sounding name they applied to their own made-up character.  Unless you think that Dante (Devil May Cry) is actually based on a certain Italian poet...  SnowFire (talk) 20:24, 20 April 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Spelling of his name
Why Cratos? I've always seen it spelled as Kratos, and even the article says Kratos is more accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.60.26.178 (talk • contribs) 04:41, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it can either be spelled Kratos or Cratus. Cratos is an unacceptable mish-mash of Greek and Latin spelling conventions. Ifnkovhg 11:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This. Kratos is the Greek transliteration, Cratus the Latinised version. Cratos is pure nonsense. --Shoemoney2night (talk) 05:54, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * And renamed. I've also removed some unsourced claims about Kratos. --06:07, 6 February 2010 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shoemoney2night (talk • contribs)

I'm pretty sure I've heard of Kratos being spelled "Cratos" 82.17.221.173 (talk) 01:01, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Cratos (names)
Making a new thread so we don't necro the other one. Here's clear evidence of the name Cratus (and Kratos) being used in addition to Cratos: AidenTEM (talk) 02:30, 13 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you for correcting me I was mistaken and forgot to double check Trainsareawesome (talk) 02:51, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Dispute on a minor change
Hello to all. I made a minor change on this article about Kratos' brother Zelus, instead of Glory to Zeal. I see it is getting undone all the time. In greek, Zelus literally means zeal and I also take the analogous article in wikipedia, so it seems inconsistent, to me at least, when two articles have different translations for the very same name. I would like another opinion. I thank you in advance! Alkiviadis (talk) 12:24, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * as I wrote on my talk page (User talk:Paul August): In ancient Greek ζῆλος, in addition to meaning fervor or zeal, can also mean pride, honor, or glory (see LSJ). In particular, as the corresponding note in the text explains, the translations being use there are Gantz's. Gantz's translation are perfectly fine and there is no need to change them. But even if we were going to use a different set of translations, they would need to be sourced, and we would also have to change what the note says about whose translations we are using. Paul August &#9742; 12:46, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * So you choose to translate it τo glory instead of zeal. It makes absolutely no sense. The name is Ζῆλος (Zelus) and also the noun is ζῆλος (zeal), which is translated in english with the word zeal. Zelus literally means zeal, while cleos means glory. Just see how close are the words Zelus and zeal. In greek the name and the noun are exactly the same, so no confusion there. There is no need for you to insist just cause you read it in a lexicon from the 19th century. My reference is the wikipedia article for Zelus. Seriously do a google translation for ΖΗΛΟΣ and tell me what it says. Alkiviadis (talk) 13:30, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It is Gantz, in his book Early Greek Myth, who chooses to translate the name as "glory" instead of "zeal", not us editors. Sources don't appear to be particularly consistent on this matter (others give "emulation" or "zeal"), but there is nothing wrong with using the translation given by Gantz, and we note that we do so, so I don't really see any issue. – Michael Aurel (talk) 13:39, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, note that other Wikipedia articles and Google translate do not meet Wikipedia's definition of reliable sources. The appropriate sources to use here are scholarly secondary sources. – Michael Aurel (talk) 13:45, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It is funny both of you being so zealous! So what you are saying is that Gantz said that zeal means glory in his book or did he simply say that Zelus was the personification of zeal... and maybe glory in archaic age? Also, just cause you are saying that he said so, doesn't make it reliable either. Can you provide a photo of what he wrote? If google translate is not reliable to you then you may open any english-greek dictionary and translate it for yourself what ζήλος means. But since you need a reference by a book, I will provide you the Dictionary of Greek and Roman biography and mythology, William Smith Edition by Tufts University. Just don't be stubborn guys or get the matter to arbitration. Alkiviadis (talk) 14:58, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Gantz, pp. 25–6 says the following: The second son, Pallas, marries his cousin Styx (daughter of Okeanos and Tethys); their children are Zelos (Glory), Nike (Victory), Kratos (Power), and Bia (Force) (Th 383-85). Smith can sometimes be an alright source, though he was writing in the 19th century, and more recent scholarship is generally preferable (also, what Smith says is that Zelus is "the personification of zeal or strife", which isn't necessarily the same). There are a number of different translations given by different scholars, it happens that Gantz was the one chosen here, and he is a perfectly good source, so I don't really see that there is a problem. Isn't it fine to simply leave it as it is? – Michael Aurel (talk) 15:24, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * As I tried to explain to you on my talk page, no one is disputing that ζῆλος can be translated 'zeal', but, by policy (see WP:VERIFY ), any translation given must be sourced. Besides Gantz's 'Glory', other translators of that Hesiodic passage, translate Zelus as 'Envy' (Caldwell), 'Aspiration' (West), 'Rivalry' (Most), Hard ('Emulation', 'Glory'). Paul August &#9742; 14:48, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * To me it is crystal clear what Ζῆλος means. All the words that you provide are derivatives from the word ζῆλος which is zeal. You choose for some unkonwn to me reason to insist in choosing the x-th translation of Zelus name, when it is zeal. Maybe zeal means something different in english or it lost its original meaning. I suspect that in english it may have a negative sort of essence while in greek it does not. In analogy, I could do the same for the user name that you use, August, it means respected and impressive but I could also insist that it means the 8th month of the year. Do you see my point? Alkiviadis (talk) 15:10, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not insisting that Zelus means 'Glory'. I'm insisting that whatever translation is chosen, it must come from some published reliable source. Paul August &#9742; 17:52, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes indeed. Editors may sometimes find it helpful to consider the original but we have to rely on published reliable sources for our translations, not on what this or that editor claims for their ability to understand ancient Greek and translate it into good English.
 * Which said, even I can recognise that translating
 * ζῆλος δ᾽ ἀνθρώποισιν ὀιζυροῖσιν ἅπασι
 * δυσκέλαδος κακόχαρτος ὁμαρτήσει, στυγερώπης.HesiodEvelyn-White translation
 * to begin "Zeal ..." would be absurd. NebY (talk) 18:26, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Help with change
I was reading the opening paragraph for this article, and noticed kratos was listed as being most well known from his role in Prometheus bound. I think we can agree that his role as the protagonist in God of War is much more well known nowadays, but owing to reasons (like being a mobile phone editor) I'd rather not explain, I cannot cite or even find sources. Could someone else find a relevant source and do the edit for me? Thanks! MonkeyEditsTM (talk) 18:12, 26 June 2024 (UTC)


 * More: I'm pretty certain he is more well known from GoW, but I'm not completely certain, so if it doesn't turn out to be true, that's my bad. MonkeyEditsTM (talk) 18:14, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * This article is about the figure from Greek mythology. The GoW character is mentioned in the modern culture section. Di (they-them) (talk) 00:49, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Di (they-them) I didn't say it wasn't mentioned there. Our goal is to provide the most accurate information possible, with reliable sources to back it up. If the information isn't as accurate as it can be, shouldn't we be trying to replace it? MonkeyEditsTM (talk) 16:25, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The exact quote in the article is "Kratos and his sister Bia are best known for their appearance in the opening scene of Aeschylus' Prometheus Bound." if it's factually incorrect, (which I'm pretty certain it is) why wouldn't we change it? This specific phrase in the article has literally nothing to do with Greek mythology in particular, and I would argue it would still need to be replaced if he were best known for being put on a cooking show, or WWE, or whatever it is. I would also argue the phrase lends itself to being moved to the "in popular culture section," instead of where it currently lies. Maybe it's just me tho. MonkeyEditsTM (talk) 16:34, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * P.S. Obviously the phrase also includes kratos' sister Bia, who's significance in GoW I am unsure of, but we could figure something out I'm sure MonkeyEditsTM (talk) 16:36, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Prometheus Bound is where Kratos is most well known from, that's abundantly clear from the article. The God of War character is entirely different from the Greek god, as the article states; their names being the same is a coincidence. Kratos from God of War is a fictional character that happens to have the same name as the Greek god, but is not based on him. Di (they-them) (talk) 16:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Di (they-them) Oh, my bad, I don't know where I got the misconception from, sorry for wasting both our time. MonkeyEditsTM (talk) 16:40, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Di (they-them) None of this is to say that you're wrong tho. If we have a difference of opinion and I cannot convince you of mine, then I will defer to what you choose to do, regardless of my true thoughts. sorry for posting so many messages, my brain just often doesn't fully complete a thought in just one message. MonkeyEditsTM (talk) 16:39, 27 June 2024 (UTC)