Talk:Kray twins

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 September 2018 and 13 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Paulinakamensky.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:54, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Casino
Didn't they own the International Sporting Club, at the South end of Berkeley Square (now site of the saatchi bldg.). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.148.112 (talk) 06:06, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

That's right. It was underground, with an entrance in the open area now covered by Saatchi. I think it was in the old storage cellars of Lansdowne House, but am not certain. There was supposed to be an entrance in the north side of Landsowne Row, but I only ever went into the Berkeley Square entrance. Rumour has it that there was an underground tunnel connecting the ISC with the Palm Beach Club on the other side of the Row. This will need to be verified before it can go in the article, tho. 89.248.18.229 (talk) 17:58, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Phrasing
Twins? Identical or fraternal? Fraternal twins — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.213.63.74 (talk) 08:50, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

They are routinely described as identical but look somewhat different. I suspect they were actually fraternal twins.TheMathemagician (talk) 10:41, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

I changed 'psychopathic homosexual' to 'psychopath.' There is nothing inherently psychopathic about being homosexual. What is meant by psychopathic homosexual? Is that a euphemism for pedophile? If so, then 'psychopathic pedophile' is preferred, although that sounds redundant. Kingturtle 18:54 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that, Kingturtle. I'm a bit embarrassed at how that entry sounded, in the cold light of day. Ronnie Kray's homosexuality is important, and interesting but I wasn't sure how to introduce it into the article. Any ideas? Rayray 14:29 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)


 * Writing 'psychopathic homosexual' does not imply that there is anything inherently psychopathic about being homosexual, in the same way that writing 'Clifford the big red dog' does not imply anything inherently red about being a dog. Or, anything inherently red about being big. etc.  Two things I'm curious about though: firstly, what is a homosexual friendship?  Are two men who have a non-sexual friendship homosexual?  Or, if it is a sexual relationship, then would another word be more appropriate than friendship?  Secondly, how long was 1956, if Ron spent three years in jail during that time? Was it a non-standard 36-month year as some means of correcting a calendar abberation? Eric, 12:27pm, Oct 20 2004, NZT


 * There is nothing in the article which indicates why one brother was more of a psychopath than the other. Can that be spelled out? RickK 03:34 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * Comments always welcome. I think there are a couple of points which indicate that; "Ron was the dominant twin, and a psychopath" in the first paragraph, and "Reg was persuaded by his brother to kill Jack 'the Hat' McVitie". If you think this needs more clarification (something like "Ron was the dominant twin, and a psychopath, whilst Reg was something of a reluctant murderer") then go for it. Rayray 08:11 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * I don't know enough about the subject to make any worthwhile contributions. RickK 01:27 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)

The section on George Cornell is confusing because it contains allegations, and is written out of chronological order. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.126.185.59 (talk) 23:46, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Teddy Smith
Should the death of Teddy Smith not be mentioned here. He disappeared after an argument with the Krays and according to Nipper Read he was the second murder victim Reggie admitted to during his death bed. Plus Freddie Foreman admitted to disposing of his body in the documentary 'Kray Twins - Kill Order". I felt like including this in the Kray Twins wiki page but felt I should mention this here before I done that. I'm new to wiki so I don't know if I'm doing this right. Apologies if I've got this wrong.I won't add it to the page if I'm told here I shouldn't.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.65.157.210 (talk) 21:48, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Rewrite
I have substantially filled this article out, giving it some more structure and lots more detail, after reading The Profession of Violence. A fascinating read. It still needs some polishing, links added etc. --192.43.227.18 07:54, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC), aka GoldenRing.


 * I must say that I am very impressed with your additions to this aritcle. I think that they've really improved it.  Thank you for making them.  Is your username GoldenRing? Acegikmo1 06:10, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"The Profession Of Violence" states that the twins were born on 17 October 1934 (4th Edition, page 18). Can somebody confirm the correct birthdate? WJL 08:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Unreferenced statement

 * "In the case of the Krays, Ronnie, although the younger of the two, was the dominant twin. He was also a paranoid schizophrenic psychopath."

Do you have a source for that, or did you just make it up? Note that "psychopath" refers to a person with antisocial personality disorder, and that condition and schizophrenia are completely different entities. Vorpalbla 05:04, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Complete nonsense. Neither Kray was a psychopath. Ronnie was a paranoid schizophrenic, quite probably bought about by diptheria when he was three. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.92.38.62 (talk • contribs)


 * That's right, neither of them were pyscopaths although.... they existed slightly closer to the raving nutter line than most people. However, they did actually help some people out of sticky circumstances with other criminals. A friend of mine is still alive thanks to their legacy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.79.192 (talk • contribs)
 * Only sickos defend these monsters. -- 74.111.235.97 (talk) 02:23, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I know nothing of them helping out people in bad situations with other criminals (comment above), but my grandfather ran a tailor's in Bond Street when the Krays ran protection rackets, and his shop was one of the ones they targetted. They were, he said, well known enough that you just let them get on with taking whatever they wanted, opened the till and went to a stockroom. People who even spoke to them (I assume to the nutter one, Rob) could sometimes end up dead, so you just got out of the way. Mysticaloctopus 20:58, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Peter Cook and Dudley Moore ran a cabaret restaurant in Soho, in the 60s. They were visited by the Krays who demanded protection money. Cook insisted that the police station next door was all the protection they needed. The Krays did not return. (Cook's interview on Parkinson )220.244.238.84 (talk) 02:54, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Unreferenced statements
OK, what the hell is this? All these quotes flying about with no goddamn references? What a mess. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.65.123.53 (talk • contribs)

WikiProject British Crime

 * For those interested, a WikiProject regarding crime in Great Britain has been proposed. MadMax 19:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Diptheria
So how can diptheria, a respiratory disease lead to mental illness? I'm removing this reference.It doesn't make sense and is purely speculative. Rrose Selavy 15:08, 7 Nov 2006 (UTC)


 * Do you know anything about the drugs used in the forties and fifties to treat serious illnesses such as diphtheria, and their side-effects?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.76.52 (talk) 14:16, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

It's "diphtheria", by the way, not "diptheria".Manormadman (talk) 10:50, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe diptheria is some kind of new illness caused by dipteres ? 109.212.160.253 (talk) 15:11, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Sexuality
It is well known Ronnie was gay, why can't we just say that in the article??! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.32.117.101 (talk • contribs)


 * The article says he was bisexual. I have also re-categorised the article, allowing us to add this article to British Mobsters, and place the sexuality of Ron on his feeding page - - to say Reg was LGBT is factually incorrect. Rgds, --Trident13 13:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd accept the 'bisexual' description of Ron if there were any sources showing he ever had a sexual relationship with a woman. Otherwise I'd have thought it was common knowledge he was gay. If anything, Reg is the more likely 'bisexual' twin. Given the illegality of male homosexuality in the UK up until 1969 and the potential for blackmail etc its not a minor point here. Plutonium27 10:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Plutonium. In interviews Reg makes it clear he has no understanding of women. It seems to me that the only difference between their sexualities was that Ron was too psychotic to know there was a closet you could be in. Fuficius Fango (talk) 13:56, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Celebrity support?
There was a long-running campaign, with much celebrity support, to have the twins released from prison

I don't recall much celebrity support - only Barbara Windsor. Is there a reference for this statement? Apepper 23:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Patsy Kensit
Patsy Kensit is not Reggie Krays God-Daughter, it is her brother James Kensit who has Reggie Kray as a God-Father. (See page 156 of "Born Fighter" by Reggie Kray). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.166.223.42 (talk • contribs)

LGBT
I have again removed the LGBT category from the article, but happy for it to be part of the LGBT project. Here's the logic - Ron was Gay/Bisexual, but Reggie was straight
 * No, he wasn't. See Pearson's book - both twins were gay - and also the film The Notorious Krays (broadcast most recently in UK on 25 May 2015).--84.45.236.96 (talk) 14:12, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

So tagging Reggie as LGBT is fatually incorrect.
 * No, it's not. --84.45.236.96 (talk) 14:12, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Having placed the correct date of birth/death tags on each feeder, plus the LGBT tag on Ronnie's feeding page, the three pages that make up the Krays (the two blank feeding pages on Ron/Reg which just contain categories) and this article are now correctly catergorised. Rgds, - Trident13 09:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, but the article covers both people, so untagging it is as inaccurate as tagging it. AND, the article I referenced (and you removed) quotes Reg's gay lover from prison, so ... anyway, I'm no Kray expert, so I'll leave it. However, you can't have categories on redirects (I removed them from Reginald Kray and Ronald Kray yesterday). You can certainly put them back but someone else will probably remove them at some point without you noticing. I'm readding them to this article until you can find a solution. I understand that two separate articles is probably a waste. TAnthony 14:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * After a bit of research, I'm with the sub articles idea - at least for Ronnie. Appologies for reverting your previous edits, but as the section you renamed "Criminology and Sexuality" was already tagged sources, and as you didn't add anything, I rv'd it back. OK, here's the logic - Firstly, the article still needs a lot of development; secondly, exploration of Ronnie's motivation needs a bit more exploration: the bio I skim read in the library this afternoon certainly has a lot of psycotic/murder/sexuality discussion in it. Thirdly, the factual tagging of Reg is incorrect at present, and the present "sole article" structure doesn't allow for different dates/causes of death. Thoughts? The stub you placed on my talk page would seem a good start, we write a similar for both brothers and keep the crime issues/chronology of it here? Best Regards, --Trident13 18:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Regarding the content of this article and Reg's sexuality, I'll leave that to you and the experts; I suppose many a straight person has had a "gay lover" in prison, LOL. As far as the stubs, I don't know how they will be received in general, but it seems the only way to keep the categories separate without splitting this article itself) which would make two largely redundant articles, I'm sure). We can just add "hidden" edit notes that the stubs not be expanded. TAnthony 18:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, this article needs language about LGBT people that reflects community standards about how the LGBT community is addressed and referred to. Terms such as "practicing homosexual" are simply beyond the pale and must be adjusted. If contemporaneous terms such as "homosexual" are used, these need to be contextualized. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vodka lemon lime (talk • contribs) 23:37, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Tower of London
Another article on Tower_of_London states that the brothers were held there for a few days in 1952, and that they were the last prisoners there. Shouldn't that be mentioned in this article? LinuxSneaker 15:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Sensationalism
I deleted driving it deep into his neck, twisting the blade as this is not needed in an encylopedic article, it is just sensationalism. Sue Wallace 18:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Kindly replace it - it is a verbatim (sourced) quote from a witness statement given to Leonard Read and also given as sworn testimony against Reg Kray. Thank you. Lion King 18:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not disputing that it is accurate, but is it needed here do you think? Sue Wallace 18:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Absolultely, because as you say it is accurate the one thing that an encyclopedia must be. You can't water down this horrific senseless murder. Cheers, Lion King 18:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok I've re-added it, if you want it in that much.... anyway, I think I'm gonna create some articles for the books I've just added, so they're not red links. Take care. Sue Wallace 19:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Take care yourself, Lion King 19:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The assertion that something is "sensationalism" is meaningless nonsense, and not a valid reason to remove content. -- 74.111.235.97 (talk) 02:30, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

YouTube links removed
4 links removed - Tv Footage - no indication from clip information or respective Uploader profiles, that uploader have rights to the footage or are associated with the TV companies/production entities responsible for it. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 12:37, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Jewish or other immigrant ancestry?
Did the Kray brothers really have all the non-English ancestry stated in the article? This family tree, from a usually reliable site, goes over most of their recent ancestors and they're all English (and all married in Protestant churches). All Hallow&#39;s Wraith (talk) 09:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I recall reading in one of Reggie Krays books that they did have Romany and Jewish ancestry but it was pretty distant. Sue Wallace (talk) 16:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I think this article is problematic throughout with respect to how well sourced it is, and the extent to which it fits the remit of an encyclopedia article. The ancestry section was a strong example of this: the claim of Irish/Romany/Jewish ancestry is sourced, but the source provided is a website whose authority is not apparent. There does not seem to be any good evidence for this ancestry combination whatsoever, and I note that elsewhere similar claims of ancestry for the Kray twins are made with apparently purely racist motives, on websites that also claim Jewish ancestry for individuals where we can be certain that such claims are invention. I have therefore removed the description of Irish/Romany/Jewish ancestry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.76.181 (talk) 21:48, 11 October 2012 (UTC)


 * If anyone is seriously interested, the "Kray" originally were ethnic Roma from Galicia in the old Austrian Empire. The mother was a mixture of ethnic Irish and Jews. Genealogy can be found on the web. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:45:490F:DC0E:38F1:13E4:84:27B1 (talk) 02:11, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Who were the Krays' non-English ancestors? All ancestry shown here and here is English. I know various articles attributed this ancestry or that to the Krays, but has any of it ever been proven? All Hallow&#39;s Wraith (talk) 08:20, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Those user-generated genealogy pages aren't reliable sources, and say nothing about the Kray twins' ethnic background. The citations you have twice removed are reliable sources, one of which is Ron Kray's obituary. Here, in a direct quote, Ronnie said he is "proud to have Jewish blood." The ancestry information should remain in the article. DrQuinnEskimoWoman (talk) 05:43, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The Mirror is a tabloid and the interviewee may not be a reliable source (he himself is recalling an older interview that he performed, so I wouldn't call it a "direct quote"). Again, who were the Krays' Irish, Romani, and/or Jewish ancestors? It's pointless to still be reporting such information in an age when it is much more easily documented than ever before, when there's no evidence to support it. Nothing is lost by its exclusion from the article. P.S., the Krays' genealogy was compiled on the website of William Addams Reitwiesner, a genealogist so reputed that he even had his own Wikipedia article. So it's not user-generated. All Hallow&#39;s Wraith (talk) 10:00, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

I am a distant cousin of the Kray Twins and I have even reseearched their other lines and nowhere have I come across any Jewish blood, I can say they did have an ancestor called Mary Kelly born 1768 in London, daughter of William and Catherine. Kelly is usually an Irish name but it is a common name and whether she had Irish blood is unknown. The Krays did have a spot of French Huguenot blood, their ancestor was Mary Obey born 1781, sister of my ancestor John, who has some Huguenot through their paternal side. Mary wed in 1804 to John Diggens. John and Mary's daughter Mary Diggens was born in 1812, she wed James Houghton, and their son Thomas Pitt Houghton is the maternal grandfather of the Kray Twins mother Violet Lee. Another man also researched the Krays lineage and found the Obey connection, and I was discussing Huguenots on a genealogy forum once. Benny1982 (talk) 21:02, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

There seems to be absolutely no evidence that the Kray brothers were of Jewish ancestry. The one cited "source" is off of The Irish Post's web page and is not a researched article but more of "fun facts" type feature which lists supposed facts without elaboration or citation. It reasonably appears to be simply rehashed rumors already found on the internet and simply compiled. To consider what is not a researched article and simply a "puff piece" devoid of actual evidence as a valid citation is simply laughable. The fact that The Irish Post may be technically considered a "reliable source" in most instances should not be used as a rationale for allowing a piece of clear non-journalism to be used a fraudulent source for a contention that still lacks any evidence at all. (Sellpink (talk) 01:35, 22 May 2017 (UTC))

Bisexual/gay continuity
In the opening paragraph, Ronnie is referred to as bisexual, while in the later imprisonment section he is called homosexual. Is this a continuity error, or is there confusion/debate about the nature of his sexuality? Or perhaps there's no distinction in vernacular British English between bisexual and homosexual? There's most certainly a distinction in the States between the two, so the article seems to disagree with itself. Suggestions? Diyforlife (talk) 01:03, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There is a distinction but I dispute the phrase "was bisexual in a period when it was illegal in the UK". Bisexuality has never been illegal in the UK, I contend homosexuality has never been illegal, only male homosexual acts. And did he become heterosexual when 'it' became legal. Very badly worded —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cannonmc (talk • contribs) 23:04, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

EastEnders connection?
Where is there proof that Ronnie and Roxy Mitchell are based on the Krays? There is practically no resemblance in character types, this seems like an extremely tenuous link to me. Douglasnicol (talk) 23:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC) Ronnie was a pretty perverted homo and he often raped young men; some of whom were aspiring actors and the like. There is a book on this subject. The Kray twins caused a lot of trouble and damage in London and yet they had what can only be described as 'state funerals', with much of the traffic in London coming to a standstill. Ronnie was the truly evil twin with a lot of power and influence. Many of the so called celebs, etc were all part of it - the parties and the funeral. It is a way of honouring evil. Stalin had a state funeral, as Moa did; and they were both living rot. I only mention this because 'the twins' ruled London in their day and so it follows, even to the dismay of many others, that they should get 'the royal treatment' as they say. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KarlVKrish (talk • contribs) 23:41, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


 * If that's in answer to me, I still don't see the connection with two female Mitchell characters in Eastenders, the only Eastenders connection I can see is Barbara Windsor. Douglasnicol (talk) 23:59, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Irrelevant rant. -- 74.111.235.97 (talk) 02:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Did Ronnie remain in prison or was he transferred to a hospital?
The lead states that "Ronnie remained in prison until his death on 17 March 1995" but in the body of the article it says that "Ronnie was eventually once more certified insane and lived the remainder of his life in Broadmoor Hospital". Broadmoor Hospital is a high-security facility and many of the patients are referred there from within the criminal justice system but it is definitely not a prison so at least one of the statement is untrue. 217.28.6.210 (talk) 18:21, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

"Stene Street" or "Stean Street", Hoxton?
There appears to be a Stean Street in the Hoxton district of Hackney, but no *Stene* Street as quoted in the article. Someone from East London who is knowledgeable about the Krays might be able to fix this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.113.227.66 (talk) 16:22, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Intro
What about this account? BRITAIN'S MOST NOTORIOUS TWINS: A PROFILE OF REGGIE AND RONNIE KRAY BY GUY ADAMS

The Krays born on October 24, 1933 into a life of crime and grew up in a slum area of Bethnal Green.

Their father, Charlie senior, was hardly the ideal role model. At the outbreak of the Second World War he was called up to join the Army, but deserted.

Frequently away from home and up to no good, the twins probably saw more of the police, who kept visiting their house at 178 Vallance Road in Bethnal Green, than they did their father.

It was up to their mother, Violet, to keep the family together, which was a struggle. For a while, her three sons stayed out of trouble, and spent much of their spare time in the boxing ring, where the twins would win many a competition. However, by their late teens, Ronnie and Reggie were also fighting on the streets, and they soon started their own gang.

When they turned 18 in 1951, they decided that military service was not for them. They spent most of their National Service in the guardroom. Matters came to a head when they were arrested for assaulting a policeman, and were imprisoned in Shepton Mallet, Somerset.

Upon their return to the East End, it was clear they would never settle into regular lives. Their first business venture was a club called the Regal, off the Mile End Road, which looked like a dive from the outside but which the Krays turned into a glamorous, fashionable nightspot.

In their sharp suits, they did their best to maintain, publicly at least, a veneer of respectability, but they were involved in just about every form of criminality imaginable, from straightforward theft to gang violence and - ultimately - murder.

The brothers and their gang 'The Firm' ruled the East End of London with a brutal savagery that included murder and torture.

Of the two siblings, Ronnie was considered the more dangerous. He was imprisoned in 1957 for GBH. While locked up, he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, which partly explained his violent tendencies. Unusually for that time, Ronnie was also publicly bisexual, which Reggie found difficult to accept.

Despite Reggie also being jailed in 1959, the Krays' 'business' activities went from strength to strength, and by the Sixties they were hobnobbing with stars such as Barbara Windsor, and eminent politicians such as Lord Boothby, with whom Ronnie is likely to have had an affair.

Ronnie remained unmarried, and Reggie's marriage to Frances Shea in 1965 only lasted for eight months. She died in 1967. It is thought that she committed suicide, although according to one account, Frances was murdered by Ronnie, for reasons that are unclear.

In the middle of 1968, the twins’ older brother Charlie were arrested for murder. Ronnie had shot a rival gang member called George Cornell in the face when he was drinking in a pub, and Reggie, normally the 'gentle' one, had repeatedly stabbed gang member Jack 'The Hat' McVitie in the face and neck for not following orders.

Both men were given life sentences, with a recommendation that they should serve at least 30 years. Charlie was sent down for ten years, for being an accessory to the murder of McVitie. Ronnie died in prison in 1995 aged 61 and Reggie died in 2000 aged 66.

Last year, Freddie 'Brown Bread' Foreman, revealed for the first time the gang started by the brothers, known as The Firm, had plans to execute the brothers just before their arrests.

'The twins were a nuisance and causing grief for everyone else. Some people felt they had to go,' he said.

'If they hadn't been nicked then they would have gone missing very soon afterwards – for ever.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2989569/How-arts-loving-schoolgirl-beautiful-mistaken-Brigitte-Bardot-ended-life-tragic-Mrs-Reggie-Kray.html#ixzz3sXFkMCEv Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:184:4002:12A1:8C42:43E7:584D:3206 (talk) 20:04, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

I find the intro rather confusing. It jumps right into discussing Charlie Kray (presumably the brother but that is unclear at first), jumping around about his life with only peripheral mention of the twins that this article is supposed to be about. A mess of an article. NevarMaor (talk) 16:56, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The last paragraph in particular suggests a hijacking by someone wanting to portray Charlie (not even one of the twins) in a good light. Apart from anything else it's written very poorly.86.0.202.47 (talk) 21:49, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

The intro is a mess, it's poorly written and contains no references. The article is about the Kray twins, their brother Charlie(If he even exists) is not relevant to this article. If he is notable, he should have his own page. I removed the inappropriate text for the time being, until someone can produce an argument to justify its inclusion. Darth Gazak (talk) 23:47, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

"Mental illness"
There isn't a shred of objective evidence -- from brain scans, blood or urine tests -- that Ronald Kray had an illness that affected his behavior. Without such objective evidence no such claims should be included. Nicmart (talk) 20:45, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The tests you describe cannot diagnose Ronnie's conditions - schizophrenia and ASPD. The authorities were obviously convicted he was severely mentally ill - he was confined to Broadmoor Hospital for the rest of his life. Jim Michael (talk) 11:06, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Ronnie had a serious head injury in 1942, inflicted by Reggie in a boxing round. Ronnie and Charlie were violent sexual psychopaths ( Express 26 May 2012 ).220.244.238.84 (talk) 02:59, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Roberta Kray
Is there a reason Roberta Kray (Reggie's second wife) isn't mentioned in the article? 86.136.123.224 (talk) 23:17, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Categorisation reminder
Just a reminder that under WP:RCAT rules, it is not appropriate to add categories to this article which apply to only one or the other of the twins rather than both of them. A category which only applies to one of the pair, such as the different years in which they died and the fact that Ronnie was gay, belong on the redirect from the individual twin to which they apply, not on the merged article about both of them — and both of those redirects are already properly filed in the categories in question.

Accordingly, please do not re-add categories to this article which only describe one of the twins; the article is already accessible from those categories via the redirects. Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 18:01, 13 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Just cleaned up both the article and the redirects. Note that there are four redirects: Reggie Kray, Reginald Kray, Ronald Kray, and Ronnie Kray. HairyWombat 18:42, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Repeated reminder as I've just noted that this article was yet again added to the death year categories: the merged article about the pair does not belong in any categories which apply to one twin, but not to the other. That includes the categories for the different years in which each twin died, as well as categories pertaining to Ronnie's sexual orientation. Those categories belong on the redirects from the individual twin to which they apply, not on the merged article about the pair. Only categories which are equally correct for both twins belong on the article itself; categories which are correct for one twin but not for the other belong on the redirects. See WP:RCAT for further information. Bearcat (talk) 20:44, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

REPEATED REMINDER that categories which are applicable to one of the twins, but not to the other, belong on the redirects from the individual twin to which they apply, and not on the merged article about the pair. Only Ronnie Kray belongs in Category:1995 deaths, because he's the only one of the two who died in that year, and only Reggie Kray belongs in Category:2000 deaths, because he's the only one of the two who died in that year; the merged article about Ronnie and Reggie Kray does not belong in any category that is not true of both twins simultaneously. Bearcat (talk) 04:50, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Please also remember that references to the twins as ' inferior, worthless scum who needed exterminating' are not encyclopaedic, and can be included in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.54.90 (talk) 10:41, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Additional appearances in pop culture
Morrissey's song "The last of the famous international playboys" and "Whitechapel"(2nd season) starring Rupert Penry-Jones — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.166.26.112 (talk) 12:09, 17 March 2012 (UTC)


 * The song Niggas in Paris by Jay-Z and Kanye West which is currently hugely popular is about the twins. Should be added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.23.25.142 (talk) 05:53, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Also, the song "Charmless Man" by Blur contains the line:"I think he'd like to have been Ronnie Kray/But then, nature didn't make him that way"184.69.84.30 (talk) 18:15, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I think the Rumpole episode "Rumpole and the Heavy Brigade" features characters loosely based on the Kray brothers.

There is a Comic by Alan Moore titled: Litvinoff's Book, whose main characters are these brothers. Germán Esteban Espinosa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.87.114.19 (talk) 21:59, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

The 2019 Kate Atkinson novel Big Sky has a pair of women detective constables, partners named "Ronnie" and "Reggie", unrelated but looking alike, debuting in the chapter titled "The Kray Twins". Once when they show up, another officer calls them the Kray twins. 2607:F470:E:22:CDA9:733B:2D3D:1F63 (talk) 16:44, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Conviction...for what?
Really, the sole notable feature of these two men is the fact they were notorious criminals in the 1950s and 1960s in England. So, it's a surprise to not see any information on what they were convicted for, that earned them life sentences. Yes, they ran rackets, reportedly killed people but that is just what people say they were "involved with" (or what they say they did).

What crimes were they actually convicted of, that sent them to prison? This seems like basic information on a profile of criminals so it's strange that it's omitted. Newjerseyliz (talk) 22:02, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Date of birth
There are several differing dates of birth for The Kray Twins throughout the article. Can anybody provide the correct one with a source? 2.223.86.62 (talk) 17:46, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Place of Death
The Infobox states that Ronnie died in Broadmoor, but the Deaths section states that he died in Wexham Park Hospital. Shouldn't these be consistent? Brian Hardy 54 (talk) 21:51, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Criminal Behavior
What sources were used to support the reasoning for the twins' criminal behavior? After looking on the talk page, I noticed that Ronnie may have killed his ex-wife. I believe more information concerning the twins' behavior is extremely important to include in this article. In my opinion, the article is good; however, the information about the twins' criminal behavior is not being supported. Chilogan (talk) 14:42, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

"The cray twins" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect The cray twins. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.  B.Rossow ·  talk  22:34, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

"Reggie died a free man, in his sleep on 1 October 2000 at the age of 66"
a bit overly poetic perhaps? "Reggie died from terminal cancer after being released from prison on compassionate grounds aged 66 on 1 October 2000" is a lot more descriptive and less flowery. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:A040:19E:7152:311B:9948:1CE2:7AA (talk) 18:35, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

So way too long
"Celebrity status" in particular. Not so much an entry as a novel/movie pitch. Encylcopedias need edits. 208.125.68.34 (talk) 23:34, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

"Gay"
Why are we quoting a biographer for the claim that both brothers were "gay", when Ronnie's autobiography indicates that he self-identified as bisexual? This is a contradiction. Dimadick (talk) 11:59, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Bad citation
[RESOLVED] Citation 4 is a link to an episode of the Forgotten History series, made by Adrian Gray. This series is a comedy which intentionally satirises and presents false information regarding historical people/events, and is not a viable citation. I would change this, but I am not Wikipedia-Literate￼ enough to be sure what I'm doing. Vegemike (talk) 14:19, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I have now removed the citation in question. Sorry for the delay, I was making sure what I was doing was correct. Vegemike (talk) 15:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Who is Donoghue?
There are 2 references to "Donoghue" but nothing more about this person:

1. "Donoghue told the twins directly that he was not prepared to be cajoled into pleading guilty"

2. "With Donoghue's testimony, Hart was arrested"

Who is Donoghue? 192.55.54.50 (talk) 02:08, 17 August 2023 (UTC)


 * It’s presumably referring to Albert Donoghue, Reggie’s right-hand man (also spelled Donaghue and he also used the surname Barry, not to be confused with Ian Barrie). But he’s not mentioned once previously in the article. If I have time maybe I’ll add in a reference somewhere to establish who Albert is first 2A00:23C6:95CE:B401:4CF5:E505:DE8B:B7FD (talk) 10:47, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

The lead is wrong
They were fraternal not identical twins they barely look alike 2A00:23CC:C204:4C01:2A31:6F1E:9CFB:F04A (talk) 08:27, 5 May 2024 (UTC)