Talk:Kreia/Archive 1

Other Trayas
I understand that it was possible if you chose the right options in KOTOR II that you could get Atris to become totally corrupt and claim to be Darth Traya before you killed her. Is this true, and if it is, should it be included in the article? Also I see a facsinating parallel with a character from Zahn's "Visions of the Future" (Car'Das specifically). Anyone care to follow up? -- Maru Dubshinki 01:22 AM Sunday, 20 March 2005


 * Unfortunately, the Atris-becomes-Traya-while-Kreia-is-redeemed plot point was one of many cut from the final version of the game. - Jon Hart
 * Yup, and you can even get a glimpse of what Atris would look like as Darth Traya if you look in the strategy guide. Nufy8 22:58, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Very interesting. What was supposed to happen to Kreia in this scenario though? Are there any links or game files that have more information regarding this? The Tollan 03:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Master Kae
I added a small notion on how it is suspected that Kreia, who claims to be Revan's first Master, and Kae, which is claimed by Disciple to be Revan's first Master, may be the same person. Evidence:

'' Disciple: "As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that. And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had." ''

 Kreia: "He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself. And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each. But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever."

Kreia and Kae share the same gender and Padawan, and they were both exiled from the Jedi order. It seems quite obvious that they are the same person, yet it is still disputed.

It seems Master Kae was exiled from the Jedi Order, then took the name Kreia as she turned to the 'neutral' side of the force. When she was corrupted on Malachor V, she became Darth Traya. --Imperialles


 * Very reasonable, and indeed, much stronger than most speculations in the Star Wars backstory. I'll strengthen the wording. --maru 23:45, 16 May 2005 (UTC)


 * As I understand it, Kreia is Master Kae, but at no point is she "neutral". The only Neutral Jedi is Luke. ::--|Anonymous


 * What on Earth are you talking about? Luke, being 'neutral'?  The closest he ever comes anywhere near such a stance is in some of Zahn's books, and possibly the New Jedi Order series (which I have yet to bring myself to read.)  Now, if you wish a neutral character, look at Jorj Car'Das, or some of the monks on Tatooine.  But Luke? pfft.  Light side all the way.  --maru 17:06, 19 May 2005 (UTC)


 * This is just personal speculation, but "Kreia" could be a combination of the names "Kae" and "Traya". "Kreia" could be a symbol of the character's "neutral" view on the Force, with "Kae" of the Jedi and "Traya" of the Sith. --Chameleon


 * If Kae is Kreia that means that Kreia is the Handmaiden's mother. But that also conflicts with what Kreia says. She says that she knew handmaiden's mother, she also says that the mothers name was Arran (could be spelled differently) Kae. But then again that could be her own philosophy of saying that she was once the Handmaiden's mother. --Psi edit


 * Consider: That does not conflict- "Arran Kae" could easily be "Kae" which could easily be squashed together with "Traya" to give the final product, "kreia"; also,  Kreia seems (to me) to have elements of the late Obi-Wan Kenobi- so saying she knew Maiden's mother (if indeed Maiden's mother was her) is in fact honest, and truthful 'from a certain point of view".  --Maru 02:55, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

There is simply too much evidence about Kreia being Arren Kae, and NONE about her being not. I'll try to sort things out: --Jinger 00:08, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Both neutralsiders
 * 2) Both teachers on Dantooine
 * 3) Both were Revan's first and last master
 * 4) Both fought in the mandalorian wars after being exiled and were thought to be dead
 * 5) Both were mysteriously wiped from the memories of the jedi masters, and from Mical's and Brianna's, not to mention the Exile's
 * 6) Both have deep knowledge of the echani traditions and rituals
 * 7) Brianna (aka Handmaiden) was a teenager when Kae was exiled, about ten years later we have a 50-60 years old woman that could easily be her mother and if one looks for it he'll find they share more than white braids, betrayal, cryptic talk and majestic attitude


 * Thats good you should include a paragraph in this article about those implications. --Psi edit


 * I agree. Just don't state it as fact, state it neutrally (ie, fans have speculate... which is true since I've seen this thread of thought before.). --Maru (talk) 18:09, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Its also possible she was the Handmaiden's mother from this dialoge cut out of the game,

< if Exile male, to Handmaiden> Think. Think before you throw away your life for him. Think of everything you will lose by dying.Your lusts unfulfilled. A dance, unfinished. A love, requited. Think before you give it up so quickly.

Handmaiden: By putting my weapons down I will dishonor the Exile. I cannot dishonor the Exile anymore then I can dishonor the memory of my mother.

Kreia: Foolish words. Perhaps I could simply marr your face to show how foolish your clinging to a memory of her is. Or perhaps the truth would leave a greater wound...

Handmaiden: Your words are hollow Traya. Your lies will end here today. If not by my hand, then by the Exile's.

Kreia: Hollow? {[Kreia gives a wry smile]} Then know the truth and suffer for it. Arren Kae did not die at Malachor, or at least not in the way you believe... Look into your feelings...

Handmaiden: {[In despair]} No... it... {These last words are said in pure anguish} it cannot be...



Kreia: {[Gameplay Programmer: Kreia turns to Visas.]}And you, blind one, you have hungered to strike me down ever since you saw the bond the exile and I share.

Deletion
The result of the vfd discussion started on March 9 is keep. The discussion is archived at Votes for deletion/Darth Traya. Please be advised a new Star Wars wiki has started on wikicities which is in need of articles. :-) --Mgm|(talk) 09:07, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)

Darth Traya's Views on the Force
Darth Traya seems to view the Force as an uncaring, insidious god that uses the lives of sentients as pawns in a cosmic game of balance. She laments the tremendous losses of life throughout history and the future in the many battles between the Jedi and the Sith but Darth Traya blamed neither the Jedi nor the Sith but the very thing they both drew upon - The Force. She was, however, angry at both the Jedi and the Sith for being too "caught up in the game" to realize that the Force was manipulating them all. Exiled by the Jedi Order due to Revan being her Padawan and later, exiled and stripped of the Force by her impatient Sith students Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion, Darth Traya experienced betrayals from, and saw the flaws of, both the light and dark sides of the Force. This unique experience may have left her disillusioned with the Force as a whole and may even have contributed to her being one of the greatest Sith Lords of her time apart from Darth Revan. When she heard about the Jedi Exile (the main character of the game Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords), she saw evidence that life CAN exist without the Force, as opposed to the traditional belief that the Force and life itself were inseparable. This gave Traya a renewed hope in her personal beliefs and the desire to learn more of the Exile's personal experiences. By the end of her adventures with the exile, Traya sought to kill the Force with "echoes" - tragedies that leave wounds in the universe that made the Force difficult (sometimes impossible) to hear and be used. By Darth Traya's reasoning, if people died because of these echoes, they were not strong enough to deserve to live in the first place. Her hatred of the Force is her overriding goal for in her mind, if she did not kill it, even more will die in the future. --Anonymous


 * Excellent summary. Edited, I think that could replace the parts already there on Kreia's philosophy. --maru 15:03, 30 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Well done. I guess it could be appropriate to edit that and put it under a Beliefs/Philosophy heading on the article. --Nufy8 17:28, 30 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Indeed. We definitely need a section on motivations. I'll see if I can add it. --maru 22:25, 30 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Ok it's done- so whaddya think? --maru 23:17, 30 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Looks good. --Nufy8 23:38, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Twilek !?!
What is this Twilek nonsense, Nufy? I never heard anything of the sort, and besides, how many Sith Lords (the real ones, not the actual species) were non-human? And a google shows nothing. --maru 22:59, 31 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I've come to think that those aren't hair braids Kreia has coming out of her hood, but rather they're the Twi'lek's lekku (head-tails). Althought I doubt she is ever referred to as a Twi'lek in the game, if you watch the "Kreia's Fall" cutscene (where Nihilus and Sion attack her), after her hood is removed, the head piece sort of makes those things coming out of her head look like they're actually attached like tentacles, rather than hair. The overall look of her head and face, in my opinion, suggests that she's more of a Twi'lek than Human. Maybe it's just me. I don't know. --Nufy8 23:25, 31 May 2005 (UTC)


 * In the absence, nufy, of any actual evidence besides some vague impressions based on a cutscene in a game not noted for accurate and beautiful cutscenes, I think we'll leave the article where it is. --maru 23:29, 31 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Right, but is there any evidence, other than a vague impression of the graphics in a game with less than great graphics, that says she's a Human? I mean, a character like Atton Rand is quite easily distinguished as a Human, and Bao-Dur is quite easily distinguished as a Zabrak, but with that hood covering up half of her face, and Twi'leks looking awfully similar to Humans, can we really say with clarity that she's Human? And yes, I realize that most Sith lords are Human (most, not all), but Traya isn't exactly your typical Sith lord. I guess it was premature of me to list her as a Twi'lek, but, it's something to think about I guess. --Nufy8 23:42, 31 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Twi'leks have different colored skin- blue, as I recall from the movies. Kreia's skin looks like old human skin. And the default species has always been in Star Wars human- the burden of proof is upon the alien side.  And as I said, get some unambiguous evidence and we'll change it, but also as I said, nobody else appears to think that, if google word association searches are any guide. --maru 23:58, 31 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. On another note, Twi'leks have all sorts of skin colors. Bib Fortuna, the first Twi'lek shown in the movies, has sort of pale pink skin. For some reason the picture on his Wikipedia article makes his skin look green. --Nufy8 00:08, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Personal Musings on Darth Traya
What I find fascinating is that Darth Traya seems to be one of several characters throughout the world of fiction who have sought "true" freedom from the divine force known to many as simply "God". Many forms have existed for such divine authorities but I believe their purposes and effects are more or less the same. Other such personalities include (but are not limited to) Luc (the main antagonist and a protoganist of the Konami game series Genso Suikoden) and Celestin (the main antagonist of the Oh my Goddess! Movie). Like Darth Traya, Luc and Celestin sought to undo what seemed to be a vicious cycle of fate.

Luc was a clone of the Hight Priest of Harmonia, Hikusaku, and the bearer of the True Wind Rune, one of the 27 True Runes of the Suikoden world. Early on, Luc felt that he was a vessel for the destiny of others. After collecting several other True Runes, Luc tried to defy and kill God by destroying himself and his True Wind Rune. He did this because he feared the future he saw - that of absolute nothingness. He blamed the "God" of his world for this unappealing destiny. However, many could argue that Luc was deranged by his own great power and relative immaturity for an immortal (30 years of life). What drove Luc, I believe, was his own uncertainty on whether or not choices were his own or those of "God". Like Traya, Luc was willing to trade the lives of others in return for "absolute" freedom.

Celestin was a former servitor of the Almighty ("God") of the world of "Oh my Goddess!" (OMG) and a former mentor of Belldandy (one of the main protoganist of OMG). In his service to the Almighty, Celestin witnessed much of the suffering and misery on Earth. Eventually, Celestin came to blame the Almighty for this seeming imperfect reality. Caught and imprisoned after an attempted coup, Celestin later sought to use others including Keiichi (as a vessel for his spirit) and Belldandy (as a conduit for virus of his own devising) in his plot to tear down the Yggdrasil system (the system that the Almighty used to run reality) and begin a new order free of oppression - his own. However, I believe Celestin, like many other would-be heroes, has taken a rather naive viewpoint for his beliefs, since he seems to witness only the "dark" side of humanity. As a point, he views Belldandy as perfect (the "light" if you will) for his planned reality of a world without evil.

In conclusion, all three of these characters sought to obtain "true" freedom from "God" for humanity. Even now, who are we to say whether or not we control our own destinies, with so many events supporting or opposing us. But in the end, it does not matter, for we are ONLY human. As I heard from a movie (I'm afraid I can't remember which one): "Freedom is the greatest madness of man". --Chameleon

Darth Traya's Personality
In the course of her adventures and lessons with the Jedi Exile, Darth Traya demonstrated much of her personality. She was a strong believer in the "survival of the fittest" philosophy. She shows this with her talk to Atton about what Jedi would be without the Force (Quote: ...nothing more than a man, or a woman, or a child) and also in her lessons as she encourages the Exile to be more self-reliant, without the help of friends or even the Force. Traya even sometimes comments that the Exile often takes on the challenges of others. In her mind, while the Exile becomes stronger, the lives of others become static and unable to grow properly. Because of her hatred of the Force, she disapproves of those who rely on the Force for survival. This is especially true for Darth Nihilus (who must continually drain the Force from others to replenish himself and his power) and Darth Sion (who must use the Force to convert his own pain into power).

On the Exile's first visit to Nar Shaddaa, Traya tries to teach the Exile how selfish and malicious humans could be after a local refugee is given a few credits. She even once criticizes how many more individuals join the crew of the Ebon Hawk on their adventures. In this, she demonstrates how she is wary of the intentions of others. This is natural perhaps, given that she herself had been betrayed more than once.

In some side-quests, it is possible for the Exile to use manipulation to achieve goals. Traya particularly favors this method of putting events in motion. She even lies to the Exile at the very beginning that the Jedi Council was responsible for the Exile's severed connection to the Force. Traya KNEW this would lead the Exile to seek out the surviving members of the Council, so they could gather into one place, where they could be killed with ease. On Onderon, Traya lies to Colonel Tobin, the right-hand man of General Vaklu, that a Jedi Academy full of Jedi exists on Telos. She KNEW that Tobin's Master, Darth Nihilus, would eventually know what Tobin learned and, desperate to feed his hunger, come to Telos, where the Exile could reach and kill him. She disapproves of the outright murder and destruction favored by most Sith (including her own students Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus), considering those methods to be used only by uncouth barbarians.

The Jedi Exile is a great focus for Darth Traya. The very existence of the Exile proves to Darth Traya that her personal beliefs were not all for naught. Traya knew her personal philosophies were not welcomed among both Jedi and Sith, but the Exile could sympathize with her on some level. One of Traya's final word's to the Exile were: "You are not a Jedi...not truly. And it is for that, that I love you." Darth Traya, despite her allegiances, was never truly a Jedi and never truly a Sith. She understood too much about evil to be what people would call a Jedi and too much about goodness to be a proper Sith. Darth Traya must have felt terribly lonely before she met the Exile.

Atton once summed up Traya's personality fairly well (albeit a bit harshly) shortly after Traya left the crew of the Ebon Hawk: "All that talk of hatred, manipulation, standing on your own two feet...sorry, you don't get any more Sith than that. Still if we were all judged by who we were in the past, we'd never understand the people we are now."

In closing, Darth Traya believed in self-reliance, was wary of others, favored manipulation to achieve her goals and felt alone in a galaxy hostile to what she believed in. The Jedi Exile gave Traya a chance for her beliefs to be heard and implemented, which is why the Exile was the only person in the universe Traya truly cared for. She would have been happy to let the rest of the galaxy and herself die to save the Jedi Exile. --Chameleon

Disputed
See this talk page.

Traya's name
Could Traya come from the word "betrayal"? Kreia "betrayed" the Exile and became an enemy, so it does make some sense. --Revolución 04:53, 22 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Oh, never mind. I just checked the article again and it mentions this. --Revolución 04:55, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Why is the entire article spelling her Sith name as Darth Traya, when it's Darth Treya in the game? - angeleyes, 30 Mar 2006.
 * It's not Darth Treya in the game. Nufy8 13:47, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Darth Traya - Hero or Villain?
I personally find it hard to accept Darth Traya completely as a "villain", despite her being one of the story's main antagonists. Traya also did much good during the story, such as training the Jedi Exile (leading to the eventual restoration of the Jedi Order), helping to stop Atris from spreading her dark teachings and helping to destroy the other Sith Lords (for unselfish reasons).

I feel that Darth Traya became who she is now through a series of unfortunate, hard-hitting events, such as being exiled by the Jedi Order (for having Revan as a Padawan), and being betrayed by her Sith students. Such unfortunate events could have a detrimental effect on one's sanity. It was no surprise that Traya blamed the Force for her misfortune. I could not help but feel sorry for Traya.

As such I hope people can think more about Traya's role in Star Wars. I think she may have taught us far more about the Force than most of us realize. --Chameleon.


 * I personally find Kreia interesting as she is one of an increasing trend of "meta"-Force characters; a trend which I've noticed as especially pronounced in the NJO series. First there was Jorj Car'Das, the former smuggler kingpin, who despite having no Force-senstivity, was nevertheless taught by the Angtii rift Monks use of the Force, esp. powers unknown to the Sith or the Jedi- he likened it to perceiving a rainbow, where the Sith and Jedi saw only a rift.  Another was Luke Skywalker, who began questioning the basis of Yoda and Kenobi's teachings, harkening back to Qui-Gon Jinn's "Living Force".  Another was the obscure Jedi Vergere in Traitor etc. --Maru 02:55, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Kreia / Darth Traya
Why is that nobody seems to care about the title Kreia being redirected to Darth Traya? This spoils the game's biggest secrect in the very first place without any warning or buffer to those not willing to know it! I intend to remove that redirection. --59.121.205.223 05:14, 11 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I will revert any such change. Wikipedia is about information; if you search for a thing, you want to know more about it, and if you don't want spoilers, you shouldn't be looking her up in the first place!! It's that simple. --Maru 18:09, 11 August 2005 (UTC)


 * This is a very wrong and bad idea you have there. With your theory like that we can remove all spoiler tags around any Wikipedia article. You should learn to find better solutions instead of sticking to the status quo when you encounter problems like this from now on. I've dealt with the problem following the example of Anakin Skywalker. -- --G.S.K.Lee 15:51, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I would remove spoiler warnings if I could, but I'm not dumb enough to think I would be allowed. /shrugs/  Oh well, can't have everything.  But you did keep the redirect, albeit in a modified form, so I will leave it alone. --Maru 22:56, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Fallen Jedi
The Sith Lords has cast much light on Revan's actions, if Revan was born in the unknown regions, likely he knew of the real sith threat all along. Learning the jedi teachings, the sith teachings, and building his own armada was always his purpose, he needed the jedi, the mandalorian clans and the republic under his control to fight the sith.

When Kreia reveals herself to the council, master Kavar makes clear that she fought in the mandalorian wars and was thought to be dead, then she must have been exiled before, during the war, *before* Revan became the dark lord. Being his master she was likely very close to him till Malachor V. I think *this* is when she assumed the dark throne as darth Traya, and it was no "fall", it was a choice, the choice to "remain here to show others the way" while Revan (after the Jedi Civil War) left for the unknown regions. It is revealed in the game that Kreia entered Trayus Accademy to study the echo the Exile created, not to look for Revan, and she remained there to continue the training of Revan's sith assassins and the "cleaning house" he started on Malachor (the assassination of the jedi not loyal to Revan). When she was cast down by Sion and Nihilus, was forced to live without the force and experienced the terrifying potential of their power to consume life, she found her new purpose, the death of the force.

After the destruction of Peragus, Kreia and the Exile finally had time for talking and from their words..

the Exile- Care to explain how you tracked me down?

Kreia- You were difficult to find..

..we can assume she was *looking* for him (they didn't meet by chance). Before the war Kreia was a teacher on Dantooine, so (like the jedi masters and perhaps every jedi on Dantooine) she was likely well aware of his ability to easely form bonds, and when on Peragus she helped the Exile to feel the force again she knew there was a great chance that such a thing could make a bond. She needed this bond, and she needed it to be as much powerful as she could make it, so she trained him and made him more powerful than any she ever trained, because the more the bound jedi are strong in the force the deeper is the bond, and deeper is the wound when the bond is severed.

In the light of all this i don't think one could evenly say that any of them actually fell to the dark side...

Kreia- Perhaps i am neither, and i held both of what they are, pieces of a whole

''Kreia- Fall? ah, already you presume much. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is difficult..''

Kreia- You are not a jedi, not truly - and it is for that that i love you

--Jinger 00:41, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Views on the Jedi
My personal respect for the Jedi has diminished because of Darth Traya. Her arguments and the actions of the Jedi Masters who condemned her have convinced me that the Jedi have taken their authority too far. The ones whom I particularly dislike are Vrook and Atris, as they are prime examples of arrogance and thoughtlessness. Instead of even thinking about opposing views, they simply dismissed the actions of the Jedi who participated in the Mandalorian Wars as the actions of the dark side. Judgemental in the extreme, the Jedi Masters at the time of the Mandalorian Wars saw only an unknown threat looming at the edges of the galaxy, but did little to combat it except wait for it to reveal itself. Anyone who didn't agree with the Masters were perceived as disobedient villains. I still believe Revan and the Jedi Exile did the right thing by helping those in need.

I have come to the realization that the Jedi represent "order" in the galaxy, "order" that has gone so far in that it stagnates and corrupts the government. The Sith on the other hand represent "chaos", the violent change that leaves a government unstable. These are extremes that should be balanced as much as possible. --Chameleon.

Interpretation: Her goals & dream
She used the Exile to clean the galaxy from any Jedi and Sith, from the old school, so that the Exile can teach the new generation of force sensitive people, how to break the will of the force and to resist it, as he did when he cut himself from the force and went into exile. She hoped to create a new way to live with the force, to protect herself and the galaxy from beeing harmed, by this god, the force. She wanted to achieve a turning point in the history of the force, and in the way how the Jedi and Sith used it, or how they were used by the force. She did that all, because she hate's the force, because she was that often disappointed by her apprentices. So she found out about the Exile and the "echoes" and said "I used the force, as i would use a poison, to understand it, and break it!". Maybe she created a precursor of the theory of "The balance of the Force" (as it was mentioned in Episode I - III), and the Sith theory of "The Sith'ari", or at least she looked for an ansewer which could have been the balance, and maybe wanted to establish this balance, or at least control the force or destroy it if necessery.

Maybe she founded also in some way, the thought of the Jedi, as beeing solely a helping role for the Republic, and thus she disapproved, the thought that Jedi and Sith should be a political factor. Because she wanted to keep the force sensetive people out of important desitions, and let the galaxy make their own mistakes and learn by trial and error, and not with a helping hand, where they just forget how to cope with their own problems and can't help themself anymore.

Nsae Comp, 17th of October 2005 (20:45 UTC)


 * Your input is appreciated, but I had to remove it from the article itself. Traya's personality and teachings, along with her relationship with the Force are already detailed in the article, but the real problem lies in the fact that this is mostly your own subjective interpretation of things. Wikipedia has a policy against original research, and this would fall under it. It is better that your interpretation remains here, where it can be discussed before any neutral changes are to be made to the article. Thank you. Nufy8 20:00, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I have to thank you, for your adviese, i appreciate it!

Nsae Comp 17/10/05 (22:15 UTC)


 * You're welcome. I added the poison part back to the article, as it seemed relevant. An accurate quote would be more helpful, if you're able to get it. Nufy8 20:26, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

''Kreia- :: All life is connected by the Force. ::

''Atris- She seeks the death of all Jedi, all Sith... and the death of the Force. It is madness, it is impossible - but she believes you are the key.

''Kreia- Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost. But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.

''Kreia- I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it.

''Kavar- What's worse is these Sith that we face. I fear that they've learned the lesson of the Mandalorian Wars all too well.

''Kreia- :: You have taught them to bond with others, and then feed on others through that bond. ::

''Vrook- But it is of no consequence. Your ability to make such connections, such bonds, so easily are why you cannot remain.

''Kreia-:: You have felt it in your companions, your choices affecting theirs, their actions mirroring yours. Imagine such incidents, spreading outwards. :: :: What you have brought is the death of all who can feel the Force. ::

''Vrook- What you carry may mean the death of the Force... and the death of the Jedi.

''Kreia- :: And unless you hear it and silence the echo you have caused, then every living thing, everywhere, that is touched by the Force... will die. ::

''Kreia- Do you think I seek the death of all living things? There is no victory in such things. I do not want to win our war like this, little Jedi. When I win, I wish it to be because I was right, my teachings true.

''Kreia- They were the Lost Jedi, you know. The true Jedi, upon which the future will be built. They simply needed a leader, and a teacher.

''Kreia- Oh, not to love is no crime, or so the Jedi believe. It is their code that kills life... their adherence to the will of the Force.

''Kreia- To believe in an ideal, is to be willing to betray it. It is something no Sith or Jedi has ever truly learned.

Neither do I think she actually wanted the death of the Force, she simply wanted the death of the Jedi Code (their adherence to the will of the Force). She says future will be built upon these Lost Jedi, so the Force will be alive and well^^ --Jinger 13:28, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Last Mandalorian?
In the article, it's said that her prophecy to Mandalore was about Jango Fett, but since Boba was a clone that had similar armor, wouldn't her statement apply to when Boba Fett was killed in the sail-barge scuffle with Luke? His nearly accidental death would certainly fit the 'too easily slain by a Jedi' description.


 * Except for the small problem that he didn't get "slain"- you can't be half-slain. --Maru (talk) Contribs 04:25, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Prophecies (especially in Star Wars) are vague and debatable as such (Take Anakin - the chosen one - for example). Jango Fett seems to fit best because of the "slain," but there can be no real evidence that her prophecy referred to either Jango or Boba. And remember, mace killed Jango pretty easily as well. -Xol 03:46, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Darth Traya, grey?
I find it somewhat difficult to believe that Darth Traya is really grey, because as far as I know, doing things that she favors only ever brings the Exile toward the dark side. However, I have only played through on the light side so far and stopped doing things which she favored after the first gave me points toward the dark side; it may be that I missed something. I could also have misunderstood her and she is not actually grey. If either of these are true, I would greatly appreciate hearing about it.
 * If you fall too far into the Dark Side, Kreia will complain that you're missing opportunities to improve yourself by refusing to take the problems of other people upon yourself. She's a rather dark gray at times, but she's still gray. For that matter, most of the time, pleasing her won't affect your Light/Dark level at all. You generally gain Influence with her by playing the role of respectful student and demonstrating your understanding of what she is trying to tell you.

Break
In her long sillioque (yeah I probably mispelled that. her speech) before the last fight, she keeps using the word break. She wants you to break. Does anyone know exactly what she meant by that? Did she mean his will? That seems odd considering her Darwinistic outlook on things and how much she "loved" him. Anyone have any info? --24.60.164.144 04:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Sith Empire?
She talks about the great Sith empire in her final spiel. Does anyone know what shes talking about? I thought the Sith were dead for all intents and purposes before Exar Kun and by now they've been pretty throughly wiped out by Revan and the Exile. I mean has anyone heard of this in the Star Wars mythos, cause it seems to jump out of left field to me.--Darkling235 04:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The ones in the Old Republic and nearby areas, I think are the wiped out ones. The final fate of the actual original Sith empire which began the Hyperspace wars is not really clear, and consensus online seems to be that this original Sith empire is the one Kreia speaks of. --maru  (talk)  contribs 04:24, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 18:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Darth Traya → Kreia — The character is called by the latter name much more frequently throughout the video game she's in; also the spoiler police have created a soft redirect at the more common name, which is just bad form. Cúchullain t/ c 20:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Survey

 * ''Add  * Support   or   * Oppose   on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~.


 * Support as nominator.--Cúchullain t/ c 20:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose while Kreia is indeed a more common name throughout the game, I feel that a encyclopedic article about the character would best be under her true name -- Remember that Kreia is merely an alias to decieve the Exile of her true identity, Darth Traya. --Novaprospekt 22:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. Using a more "correct" but less common- and it's less common even in the only game she's in- would be against the common names guideline. It would be like saying Tarzan should be at John Clayton, Lord Greystoke because that's his real name.--Cúchullain t/ c 22:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Rebuttal - I understand your point of view but I feel the comparison is somewhat flawed. This is a fictitious(sp?) game, and the only reason she calls herself Kreia is to shield her identity early in the game to foster a climatic plot twist later on. How is an actor being referred to as the name of one of his characters related to this? In reference to Wikipedia policy, wouldn't this fall under royal/title naming policies? (I.e. Darth Traya being her "royal" title). Another example I can think of would be papal names. Pope Benedict XVI is the primary page and Joseph Alois Ratzinger redirects to it. --Novaprospekt 00:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid you're confused. John Clayton, Lord Greystroke was the real name of the character Tarzan, not the actor who played him. And no, Darths do not fall under the royal naming policies. They are fictional characters, and as such, their articles should be at their most common name. Emperor Palpatine is not at Darth Sidious.--Cúchullain t/ c 02:31, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Never was a fan of Tarzan so I simply assumed you were referring to an actor in the movie. I think the two biggest problems here is that 1: this is a fictional game/character and naming polcies address real characters/real situations 2: precedent... this is a unique situation. The palpatine reference was a good one except that Palpatine was his real name, not an alias. And then Emperor Palpatine was a royal/political title, otherwise he'd be known as Darth Sidious once he revealed his identity in EP3. Again, Kreia is simply an alias she uses and though I don't know this for fact, it's not her real name. All in All, this should probably be left as is -- the soft redirect does a good job in avoiding the spoiler, while providing the necessary information for those who don't wish to be spoiled. I don't think the status quo should be disrupted if it's working fine. --Novaprospekt 03:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Weak Support I don't know much about the character or the game, but even in opposition, Novaprospekt admits that Kreia is the common name. Wikipedia doesn't care about the "true" name of anything. –  Anþony  talk  05:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Support per Anthony. Patstuarttalk 17:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Clairvoyance???
In the last section, powers and abilities, there are two lines "'Traya was also uniquely able to accurately predict future happenings that were thousands of years into the future, spanning all the way to the fall of the Republic which occurred about 4,000 years after her death. Her clairvoyance was specific enough that she was able to predict the end of Jango Fett by the hand of Mace Windu on Geonosis. '"

Is there any evidence to support this claim? I've played KotOR 2 to the end 4 times and don't remember her ever making such a prediction -- or at least never mentioning specific names such as Windu and Fett. Unless this can be validated or explained, I'm going to remove it in about a week.
 * The direct quote is: "[Mandalorians] will die a death that will last millennia, until all that remains is their code, their history, and, in the end, the shell of their armor upon the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi." It basically says the Mandalorians will become nothing but the shell of a man (Jango Fett who is not even a true Mandalorian). Easily slain is Windu killing Jango. Its somewhat metaphoric but its not too hard to tell what she was talking about. Gdo01 22:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't agree -- consider it from this standpoint: If you never saw Episode II and had no knowledge (through books or any other lore) that Jango was killed by Windu on Geonosis, could you infer the same thing? I don't think you could -- it's much to vague. I do agree that Jango was not a Mandalorian, he simply wore Mandalorian armor. --Novaprospekt 00:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it was more of an easter egg put in by the writers. There really was no reason for Kreia to look that far ahead into the future when she was only telling you the future of your crewmates. Either way it doesn't matter, the fact just stands that she can predict or see the not too distant future but predicting farther than that is not as concrete. Gdo01 00:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Right, so perhaps moving the clause about Jango Fett and Mace Windu to a new section (about potential easter eggs or declaring it speculatory) would be more appropriate than where it currently is. When I read it the first time, it sounded like it was a stated fact. It also does not have a source from, say, Obsidian or LucasArts, confirming that speculation. --Novaprospekt 00:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, it could as easily be Boba Fett; if she's looking at the final end of the Mandalorian tradition, Boba's dead follows Jango's.

Spoiler Warning
Is there any way to rewrite this so as to avoid spoiling one of the game's major plot twists as early as the first sentence? There's a real problem here. The page used to use a soft redirect; perhaps we should put it back? - CronoDAS 08:16, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm sure there is a way to avoid spoiling the game. If you can think of any way to improve this or any page, please be bold and make the changes yourself. A recently-concluded move request established that Kreia is the common name of the character, so the article belongs here. –  Anþony  talk  08:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I added a relatively spoiler-free introduction; making the rest of the article less spoiler-intense is too much for me to handle right now. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CronoDAS (talk • contribs) 01:32, 29 December 2006 (UTC).

Spoiler notwithstanding, I really think a spoiler warning belongs, as the magnitude of the spoiler is significant. It's like spoiling a whodunit mystery. Obviously the article will have spoilers, but do we really want to give away the ending in the second paragraph without so much as a warning? - CronoDAS 21:41, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I created a section break, which brings the TOC up. Between the TOC barrier and the section label ("Role"), it should be clear that there are plot points in there. Regardless, though, an article about a fictional character will reveal spoilers. I appreciate that it was a bit lame to reveal her allegiance so early. As a whole, it's reflective of the fact that this article needs a massive rewrite -- or, even better, considering that on balance this is a non-notable character, should simply redirect to KotoR 2 (ditto Jedi Exile). --EEMeltonIV 21:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I changed it to "Background" and merged it with the "Teachings" section; I think I can live with it as it stands. I disagree that the character itself is non-notable, though. - CronoDAS 00:05, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Recent Darth Traya Move
Much to my disappointment, the Darth Traya page ended up becoming a hard redirect to Kreia. Also as I foresaw, this now creates a problem for people seeking information without desiring a spoiler. Though I doubt any admin will understand why the soft redirect/spoiler protection was necessary (unless they have personally played the game), I agree with the above user, CronoDAS. There definitely needs to be a complete re-write of the first two paragraphs with ample spoiler warnings and generalizations to prevent people from accidentally finding out who Kreia truly is.

In my spare time I'm willing to help do this, but re-instating the soft redirect is probably the easiest way to do this and for the record, I'm all for that. --Novaprospekt 17:35, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * From Spoiler warning, Wikipedia "strives first to inform, spoilers or not." The soft redirect business was ridiculous; as for rewriting the article, if it can be done without compromising the information, that's fine, but remember we're not here to water anything down in order not to spoil some potential player's game.--Cúchullain t/ c 23:41, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. We shouldn't be bending over backwards to avoid spoiling the game. However, this article goes into way too much detail about the character to be encyclopedic. It should really be pared down significantly, which might have the side effect of reducing the spoiler-ish-ness.
 * Here's an example: "Just as such a person would strive to understand the lethality behind poison, so she strives to understand the particularities of the Force, thereby enabling her to destroy it, perhaps." -- I take it this is paraphrasing Traya's own words? That's really not the right tone for an encyclopedia and there's a lot more of it. –  Anþony  talk  01:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)