Talk:Kriya Yoga school/Archive 2

kriyayogashyamacharan.org as a source
I once again removed a large addition sourced mostly by kriyayogashyamacharan.org. I don't believe this is a reliable source, nor should it be used so extensively. Here are all the references from the removed content: --Ronz (talk) 19:32, 1 April 2012 (UTC)


 * kriyayogashyamacharan.org:
 * http://kriyayogashyamacharan.org/yogacharya.php
 * http://kriyayogashyamacharan.org/pithysayings1.php
 * http://kriyayogashyamacharan.org/akc-spiritual-lineage.php
 * http://kriyayogashyamacharan.org/yssm-books-excerpts-purana-purusha.php
 * http://kriyayogashyamacharan.org/yssm-books-excerpts-who-is-shama-churn.php
 * http://kriyayogashyamacharan.org/yssm.php
 * http://kriyayogashyamacharan.org/yssm-centers.php
 * http://www.wpsconnect.org/speakers
 * http://www.lifepositive.com/Spirit/Kriya_Yoga/The_science_of_soul22010.asp
 * http://www.crossandlotus.com/Masters/lairi_mahasaya.html

http://kriyayogashyamacharan.org is the official website for Yogiraj Shyamacharan Sanatan Mission (YSSM). This mission in founded by Yogacharya Dr. Ashoke Kumar Chatterjee (Disciple of Yogivar Sri Satya Charan Lahiri Mahasaya). Who is also the author of the 2 famous books on Kriya yoga - Purana Purusha and Who Is This Shama Churn. Based on the 26 confidential diaries of Lahiri Mahasaya.

Information put over there are best to their knowledge, while sticking to truthfulness - this I believe firmly.

Furthermore,


 * http://www.wpsconnect.org -- The 1st Parliament of Spirituality, to be held in Hyderabad, India
 * http://www.lifepositive.com -- The Life Positive website
 * http://www.crossandlotus.com -- The Cross and Lotus website

are quite famous platforms for spirituality from all the avenues.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-05-23/science-of-spirituality/29447692_1_infinite-creation-science-religions
 * Yogacharya Dr. Chatterjee's article in The Times Of India :

http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/22/stories/2008012250630200.htm
 * Another, one of the most famous daily news paper "The Hindu" reports an event on Degradation of Human Values :

Akash 2011 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:06, 2 April 2012 (UTC).

Dear Ronz...

Let us know, what made you think that http://kriyayogashyamacharan.org is not reliable. I guess there are certain reasons behind your apprehension. Can you please share those.

And now, what's the way forward ?

Regards.

Akash 2011 (talk) 18:49, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your patience. Since we're not getting others' perspectives yet, we can try more direct approaches. WP:DR covers the many options we have. I think WP:RSN might be helpful to get perspectives on the reliablity of the source. --Ronz (talk) 19:47, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

So, how to proceed ? discuss the issue in their talk section ?

Akash 2011 (talk) 20:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Not on the talk page, but on the noticeboard itself. There are instructions there if you want to get started right away. --Ronz (talk) 20:41, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Dear Ronz...

Can you contribute to this discussion please. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#kriyayogashyamacharan.org_-_reliable_source

Akash 2011 (talk) 08:32, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for getting the discussion started there. Looks like there's already a good deal of constructive feedback. I'll join in soon. --Ronz (talk) 15:48, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't believe I've much to add to the discussion. Others have brought up my concerns that it only be used as a source for a specific point of view; the pov should not be given undue weight; and we need better sources to determine what weight to give this and other points of view. --Ronz (talk) 15:57, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Dear Ronz,

Please don't conclude as the discussion is still on. Just on a different note :

Do you consider the following links to be reliable ?


 * The Times of India -- India's most famous and most circulated English daily news paper
 * The Hindu -- Again, one of the most eminent English newspaper
 * http://www.wpsconnect.org/ -- WORLD PARLIAMENT ON SPIRITUALITY

Thanks for all your efforts and time

Regards.

Akash 2011 (talk) 19:03, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * A publication can be reliable for some information and not for others. Regarding the links, you'll have to provide the specific source and indicate what information is being proposed to be included from that source. A publication can be reliable for some information and not for others. As you pointed out earlier, news publishers are likely not very good sources for the type of information covered by this article. --Ronz (talk) 01:26, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes I remember, because of the subtleness of the subject - 'Kriya Yoga'. But, can't objective/informative things be included ?

Also, if, eminent spiritual sites as well as newspapers are not considered reliable on this context, then what else is left to be put as an evidence?

Akash 2011 (talk) 06:07, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

No mention of physiology?
Curious as to why the physiological aspects of the breathing ritual of kriya isn't stated anywhere in the article. Does it bear, for example, any relation to hyperventilation? The wiki article on hyperventilation says that the expulsion of greater amounts of carbon dioxide causes the blood vessels in the brain to constrict which means oxygen is not getting to the brain. Likewise, the literature on Kriya says that carbon waste is reduced. Therefore, wouldn't this mean that the flow of blood oxygen to the brain is depleted? 86.6.110.214 (talk) 15:30, 19 July 2012 (UTC)GB
 * Not sure if there has been any studies done to look at the physiological aspect of someone that's practicing Kriya Yoga meditation. If you can find any reliable secondary source feel free to suggest here. I will take a look. NestedVariable (talk) 16:10, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Kriya Yoga Mentioned in the Bhagavad Gita
In the book on page 502 God talks With Arjuna: Bhagavad Gita by Paramahansa Yogananda, it is written on 502 Kriya Yoga is referred to in this verse IV:29: "That meditation expert (muni) becomes eternally free who, seeking the Supreme Goal, is able to withdraw from external phenomena by fixing his gaze within the midspot of the eyebrows and by neutralizing the even currents of prana and apana [that flow]within the nostrils and lungs..." and also V27-28

Verse 29 page 496 Other devotees off as sacrifice the incoming breath of prana in the outgoing breath of apana, and the outgoing breath of apana in the incoming breath of prana, thus arresting the cause of inhalation and exhalation (rendering breath unnecessary) by intent practice of pranayama (the life-control technique of Kriya Yoga).

Verse v27-28: A muni - he who holds liberation as the sole object of life and therefore frees himself from longings, fears, and wrath - controls his senses, mind, and intelligence and removes their external contacts by (a technique of) making even (or "neutralizing") the currents of prana and apana that manifest (as inhalation and exhalation) in the nostrils. He fixes his gaze at the middle of the two eyebrows (thus converting the dual current of the physical vision into the single current of the omniscient astral eye). Such a muni wins complete emancipation.

This needs to be added to this page. Red Rose 13 (talk) 12:34, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Kriya Yoga template
Hi Red Rose 13, good to meet you, and I'm glad you like my other edits. I found the template and added a couple of entries, and then put it on the pages, but am not married to it (although I did date it). You say it's not accurate. Since it's the Kriya Yoga template and this is the Kriya Yoga talk page, why not add to it to make it as accurate as possible (I'm not a Kriya Yoga student, so although I've read the books of the yogi's listed on the template, I'm not an expert of that particular pathway). The well known adherents and teachers part seems accurate. It links to this article as its "home" page, so that will give information to readers, and it links to practices which are related to the yoga (because of your objection I added the word "Related" in the title of the first section. Does that help?). Is it that it's not possible to define the Yoga on a template? And that's a very interesting write up just above there, thanks, very nice work and I agree, it should be added to the page. Randy Kryn 2:59 1 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi Randy - see your post and would like to respond but I am off to work soon. Plan to respond later today and explain why the Kriya Yoga template is inaccurate etc... Have a good day Red Rose 13 (talk) 14:05, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Great. It's been many years since I read Yogananda's book a couple of times. Wouldn't the template work (and I'll change 'Proponents' to 'Lineage' so the entire group is bundled together) if this page - the Kriya Yoga page - is bulked up with quotes like you arranged above (and maybe those three quotes can be put together into one paragraph, with ... in between the breaks), made more accurate, and it would then be the showcase which the template links to in its name. Just a thought or two to mull over. And did you get into the Mahatma Gandhi renaming voting last year? I missed it, and was sorry they changed it to Mahatma from Mohandas, a title that Gandhi very much wished that nobody would call him and even asked people not to. For his page on Wikipedia to be named using an honorific name which he disliked as both the title of his article and the Gandhi template is one of the worst labelings on the site right now, imnho. Randy Kryn 16:12 1 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi Randy here are some of my thoughts on the subject that might be helpful in our discussion:
 * (1) Babaji is the one who first gave the technique of Kriya Yoga. One of his disciples Lahiri Mahasaya asked if he could give the technique to all sincere seekers and Babaji agreed. From the Autobiography of a Yogi by PYogananda
 * (2) Lahiri Mahasaya was asked by Babaji to initiate people into Kriya Yoga. He did. from the Autobiography of a Yogi By PYogananda
 * (3) He died in 1895 and you can well imagine the large lineage that has spanned over 119 years!
 * (4) To have a template that only mentions a few of these people, is misleading.
 * (5) Also, some decided to give kriya without permission and started their own organizations. It gets very complicated to try to list who is a legitimate Kriya Yoga initiator.
 * (6) Swami Shivananda did not give Kriya Yoga.
 * My thought is to not have a template - it really isn't necessary. If you want one, then I would only have Babaji and Lahiri Mahasaya on it. Red Rose 13 (talk) 00:02, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * No, I would not push for one, especially since there would be so little information on it and I am very unlearned in the inner workings and history of the yoga and the groups. Yoganananda, of course, and others in the line, have given the west a historical line directly connecting western culture with yoga and the other teachings of learned individuals in India and elsewhere. The only other leap of eastern data to the west that is comparable is when Baba Ram Das wrote 'Remember Be Here Now', and others in that circle began to speak of human potential and new informational languages (the west had nothing comparable to Sanskrit, for example, when Yogananada was living). But concerning this discussion, who's who and what's what with Kriya Yoga on the level you are writing about is outside of my knowledge pool. Thanks for the great data, and please, write up the quotes of Yogananda you wrote about above into one paragraph and include it on the Kriya Yoga page. Nice to meet you, and enjoy everything, everyone, and everyplace (just made that one up, sounds like a Dr. Who greeting! Either that or the guy from the "Truman Show"). In all, Randy Kryn 00:20 1 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks Randy...I will add the above quotes if I haven't already...Happy editing! Red Rose 13 (talk) 01:17, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Also Randy would you consider deleting the template from Wikipedia so that others don't use it. Thanks. Red Rose 13 (talk) 04:29, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi. It wasn't my template creation, I found it laying around somewhere and added a couple of entries, so please take it, wrap it in a bag, and leave it at the side of the road if you'd like. Feel free to remove it from anywhere else it lurks. This discussion makes me want to go into storage and find my old Yogananada books for a reread. The U.S. should put him on a postage stamp, he was a great ambassador of knowledge to the West and must have had quite the spiritual calling in that direction to accomplish what he did. Randy Kryn 23:19 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Practice and technique of Kriya Yoga
For a thorough exposition of the practice and techniques of Kriya Yoga as an extensive, lineage-free, Guru-independent “sharing of a personal experience,” cf Kriya Yoga: Synthesis of a personal experience, by Ennio Nimis (same as External link, following Notes in Article) Bernhard Hoop (talk) 23:09, 8 December 2011) (UTC)

I agree that the www.kriyayogainfo.net/index.html link should be included. It is a far better source for info on Kriya Yoga than this unfortunately wiki entry.

The offshoots from SRF should also be on this wiki page as well, Ananda and other major ones. The information about how SRF changed Paramhansa's name to Paramahansa should be included. They lost in court, but the history isn't on this page? That seems very odd, that some fanatics can edit history but not have that editing noted or noticed. I find all SRFmaterials or materials with the mis-spelled name suspect, but in a wiki article, it would make sense to include both and let people know about the difference between the two. comment added by Aasgaard (talk • contribs) 01:36, 11 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia focuses on facts and uses reliable secondary or third party references to back up the facts. I suggest researching the guidelines on Wikipedia before proceeding. This page is about kriya yoga itself not about opinions of organizations and their history. Red Rose 13 (talk) 09:23, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Discussing the revert of my edits
Hello User:Chiswick Chap can we discuss the reason you reverted my edits? It is clear that "Kriya yoga" is used to refer to various lineages and traditions, not just a single one. Please explain.Javierfv1212 22:38, 19 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi, and thanks for discussing.


 * The first point is that another editor reverted your additions, with the comment "Reverted good faith edit - bring to talk page before you edit". The onus is thus on you to explain why the addition should be made, not on me or the reverting editor. That might be considered sufficient "explanation".


 * However, to reply to your question, I would say that you would need to demonstrate that it is widely accepted that "kriya yoga" has and deserves wider extension than the teachings of Mahavatar Babaji, not merely that someone else claimed the name for their teaching. To be plain about this, you would need to demonstrate not that X has claimed "my teaching is KY" but that independent scholars A and B have stated "X's teaching is a variety of KY". In this scenario X is a primary source, A and B are reliable secondary sources within the meaning of WP:RS. I don't wish to put words into anyone's mouth, but editors can reasonably expect the evidence, specially for major claims that radically reshape an article, to be reliable and independent as usual across the encyclopedia. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:03, 20 March 2019 (UTC)