Talk:Kshatriya/Archive 4

Khatris
Khatri, coming from "Khettri" is similar to Chetty (Shetty) a Vaishya caste (merchants). Also Seth is the Gujarati version of Chetty, which is also a Khatri name. I have heard that the original Kshatriyas of India were the Rajputs, Jats, Marathas and the Nairs. Please feel free to comment.220.238.190.95 11:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Response: "The Khatris were the patrons ('yajamansas' or in Punjabi 'jajmani') of the Saraswat Brahmins. [14]" "Khatri is the Punjabi adaptation of Sanskrit word Kshatriya (Hindi: क्षत्रिय, kṣatriya). The Kshatriya are the traditionally members of the Hindu military order. As administrators and rulers, Kshatriya were assigned with protecting the Hindu Dharma, and serving humanity. In course of time, however, as a result of economic and political exigencies, the Khatri also expanded into mercantile occupations. The Khatris, along with the Ahluwalia, Aroras, Lohanas, Soods and Bhatias, are the Kshatriya communities of Punjab.[1][2]" I'd like to add to the reference of khatri being kshatriyas: "the 10 sikh guru's all were khatri's like guru tegbahadur n guru gobindsingh ji. n also general jj sing ahuja (cheif of army) or NC vij the former one. realise that we r the real kshtriyas... raja porus was also a khatri of sabharwal caste ".. this was a quote from khatri discussion group... but now that i added this to the knowledge base on wikipedia..i must say... this is all a intellectual/historical importance only. today, it is not ,race, color, or creed that gives a man and woman his status or place in society..it is his/her work ethic, morality and virtues..thank you

^ Pure nonsense. Is a quote from your discussion group supposed to be an academic source? You have asserted that various shudra peoples of Punjab are of kshatriya status, and to evade the fact that there is no evidence to support your pompous lies you even conceal your own identity.. nice. Thank you for demonstrating typical Punjabi khatri values of deceit and and self-aggrandizing mendacity. You are really a disgrace to Indians. --Zubedar 00:56, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

For all who read between the lines
I am disapointed to see the controversy over "Khatri".Why people dont believe it.If a king is removed from his position, he and his descendants should do something for survival.There isnt any harm Kshatriyas adopting business.After all, all of them will have do something now for their living.It is a fact they are no more ruling community nor they are only fighters.Many persons have rose to place them.It is no wonder, in Punjab they lost their identity as Kshtriyas and adopted "Vaishya" karma for survival.Khatris can not be ignored only because they started business earlier,which is now being done by every other Kshatriya.However if someone has something to prove, He should state with proofs. --Shivbramh 11:53, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The reason why the claims are not believed is simply because only the truth will stand up, in the course of time. You are fixated on the notion that these people were once legitimate kshatriyas whose ancestry is now lost. However, this assumption is false. You are ignoring the fact that in Punjab, the Chauhan, Parmars and others of the Rajput race are sometimes considered Rajputs, and in places considered Jatts. The Rajputs and Jatts are of similar race. You are also ignoring the evidence about the foreign origin of khatris, i.e. from Afghanistan. The region of Afghanistan they are from, was called Bakhater, and a person from this region was called Bakhatari, which became khatri. They are not of the same race as either Brahmins/Vaishyas, or the kshatriyas of India. Their heritage is different. Now, please show me any evidence at all, supporting the khatris' claims to kshatriya status???

--Zubedar 18:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Organization
I can't help but think that this page could be better organized. As is, the bulk of the info are under the "Origin" section, making it very bloated indeed. Here's to hoping some expert would get to work on this. o (talk) 21:24, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

STOP REMOVING KHATRIS
Indianprithvi - STOP REMOVING KHATRIS. You know that they are the true Kshatriya group of Punjab. Its a known fact, stop denying it and being envious towards them. Yes, everything about Khatris leads you to believe they are the true Kshatriya race. Brahmins recognize them as the true Kshatriyas. Why would other groups try to claim to be Khatris? I'll tell you why, because they want to associate themselves as being of a high caste and socially ranked group of people, which everyone knows that Khatris are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jayvegas (talk • contribs) 20:55, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Mr Jayvegas, Dont vandalise this wiki page unncessarily. Already Zubedar has explained why Khatris are considered Kshatriyas. So no need to explain from my side. Indianprithvi (talk) 13:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not vandalizing anything. I am just stating the facts and the truth. thats it! There is no need for you or Tripping Nambiar to make changes if I rightly put Khatris on this page. In fact, if you really look at it, what other groups can actually claim to be pure Kshatriyas other then Khatris? Is that why you guys so fervently remove them, because you are so envious of the status they once held, and continue to hold. Don't you get it, the more you remove them, the more it shows the truth fact of their existance and how important they really are........and lets face it, you and tripping nambiar can't stand that fact —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jayvegas (talk • contribs) 18:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I think verifying all Kshatriya communities listed on this page is sorely needed, as the occasional malicious nut such as the above can slip in factual inconsistencies for whatever reason.

Regarding Khatris and other non-Kshatriya neo-castes from EB: "A number of new castes, such as the Kāyasthas (scribes) and Khatris (traders), are mentioned in the sources of this period (post-Gupta). According to the Brahmanic sources, they originated from intercaste marriages, but this is clearly an attempt at rationalizing their rank in the hierarchy." Trips (talk) 15:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * well, then why don't we mention the Kāyasthas and Khatris as "neo-Kshatriyas" based on this very reference? I mean, caste is a matter of social consensus anyway, and if consensus changes over time, you get new castes, it's not like we have a year of establishment for every other caste listed. --dab (𒁳) 11:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * ah, I see that's what you did. I endorse your circumspect edit, Trips. The key for any further edits is WP:CITE. I will consider revert warring over the Khatris etc. without people presenting their sources as falling under WP:DISRUPT. --dab (𒁳) 11:58, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

"Khatri" is Punjabi language pronounciation of "Kshtriya"

 * Khatri- "Khatri" is the Punjabi language adaptation or pronounciation of Sanskrit word Kshatriya (Hindi: क्षत्रिय, Kşhatriya), in course of time, however, as a result of economic and political exigencies, the Punjabi Khatri also expanded into other areas outside Punjab and other occupations, they excelled in business, commerce and industry which has traditionally been the occupation of Vaisya (merchant) caste , of Punjab, they claim Kshatriya status.

References

PLEASE NOTE:

Editors are requested to stop vandalizing this fact well known in Punjab locally and referenced on wikipedia that: "Khatri" is nothing but Punjabi language pronounciation and adaptation of the sanskrit word "Kshtriya".

I do not expect to waste more time on some egoist editors who keep reverting this fact to satisfy their own agendas.

Atulsnischal (talk) 07:37, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Its heights of blindness, deafness and dumbness if some editor thinks that this information is not relevant in this article.

Atulsnischal (talk) 07:52, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

You have removed cited text, and replaced it with a paragraph of information on one caste, where no other caste on the list has more than a brief sentence if any. Trips (talk) 11:42, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Please UNLOCK THE PAGE, I CANNOT MAKE CONTRIBUTIONS AND EDITS....
I will report this page as being locked to the Wiki admins. Please unlock this page moderator! —Preceding unsigned comment added by KhatriNYC (talk • contribs) 16:12, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

'Denzil Ibbetson, Edward MacLagan, H.A. Rose "A Glossary of The Tribes & Casts of The Punjab & North-West Frontier Province",'' 1911 AD, Page 501-526, Vol II, Ibid, Page 537-538, Vol II.'''

This book above clearly stats the history and lineage of Khatri/Kshatriya people, people you clearly know nothing about but come to this page to show your authority.......or should I say, lack there of. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KhatriNYC (talk • contribs) 16:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Request to link two wikipedia pages-Vaniakula kshatriya and Agnivanshi
Dear Editor:

When I look up Wikipedia Search for Vanniar / Vanniakula kshatriya,I was able to find an excellent article based upon architectural evidence in temple carvings of Vanniar Puranam (Tamil for story of Vanniars- a shortened term for vanniakula kshatriya) at Sri Vaitheeswaran Koil in Tamil Nadu Of South India. International /Diaspora/Non Tamil South Indian /North Indian editors ,please note this an equivalent to finding a piece of information engraved for posterity on a pyramid.

This Purana also notes that Vanniya/Vanniakula kshatriya emerged from FIRE or AGNI in a Ritual performed by Sri Jhambu Maharishi and often say they are Agnivanshis. In fact, I am VanniKulaKshatriya heritage and our Gotra is Jambhu Maharishi Gotra.

However ,when I look up Agnivanshis in Wikipedia Search, a list of caste or descendants of AGNI comes up as  North Indian list and South Indian list.

I have separated Vanniars from Agnivanshi Kshatriya n put it in other Kshatriya list. It is a know fact that only four clans of Agnivanshis r recognized n who follow Orthodox traditions of Kshatriyas. Since Vanniyars dont follow orthodox Kshatriya tradition, I hav put them in other Kshatriya list. Please discuss n then make any changes regarding this issue. Indianprithvi (talk) 12:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Note to the Admin of this page: Please update the status and content of KHATRIS
I am requesting that this page be unprotected, and opened to all users. I have noted incorrect information posted about the Khatris on this page. Looking at the references, TrippingNambiar has incorrectly posted citations about Khatris being of the Vaishya caste. If you go the site that he provided as REFERENCE SITE #7, the information on the website clearly says:

''Khatris. – Khatri is a popular variant of the Sanskrit word Kashtrya, which was used to describe the warrior caste among the Hindu according to the varanashram propounded by the Shastras. In course of time as a result of economic and political exigencies, however, the Khatris also resorted to mercantile occupations, which were originally adopted by the Vaisas, the trading classes.''

The word "also" in the statement above connotates that in addition to what they were already previously doing, and that previous occupation was being members of the Kshatriya caste (civil admins, rulers, generals, warriors, landlords, etc.). So that being, you cannot say they are Vaishya caste since that clearly indicates that some of them ALSO RESORTED to mercantile occupations.

Please unlock this page so I may make the correct edit, and place Khatris as a corrective Suryavanshi caste, and please remove the citations noted saying otherwise.

Also to further make my point, the other 2 REFERENCES TrippingNambiar has provided are also questionable and inaccurate:

1. RERERENCE SITE #8 the book is written by members of another faith/religion called Radhasoami, who were not present in India until the 1800s. Not really sure how credible their citations are. You make the call. 2. RERERENCE SITE #9 the link simply does not work. But I went ahead and actually went to the site myself, please go to and look up Khatri, the site also states they are of Kshatriya caste.

Finally, if you need references to indicate that Khatris of Khatriya caste, I can provide those as well. But I would need you to unlock the page so I can add them. However, I do not know why I would need to provide them since it is a known fact that Khatris/Kshatriyas are one in the same, but if need be, please let me know.

OR, if you prefer, you may make the corrections.

Thanks admin! —Preceding unsigned comment added by KhatriNYC (talk • contribs) 18:19, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, REFERENCE #10 refers to people by the last name of Khatri who live in Gujarat. Very different people from the Khatris of Punjab. Please remove this reference also. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.98.52 (talk) 02:34, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

One source states that "most scholars place the Khatris as a Vaisya caste", and the other does not refer to "Khatri of Gujarat" as you suggest. Britannica in the India article states Khatri to be a new caste, I have posted it in a topic above. It is also easy to find additional sources that state Khatri to be a merchant caste. I have attempted to balance the viewpoints of multiple sources, where you want me to remove sources that do not agree with your viewpoint, even though most sources state Khatris to be a merchant caste. Trips (talk) 03:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

More from Britannica "The Sikh founder, Guru Nanak (1469–1539), was roughly a contemporary of the founder of Mughal fortunes in India, Bābur, and belonged to the Khatri community of scribes and traders."

"The Khatri and Arora castes, both mercantile castes, form a very small minority, though they are influential within the Sikh community." Trips (talk) 04:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Its all nonsense, everybody in Punjab and North India of Punjabi origin knows that in Punjabi language Kshatriya is pronounced as Khatri, the name has stuck even when khatris migrated to other parts of India and speak other languages now, in Punjab in more recent times the Punjabi Kshtriyas controlled the business and commerce too along with enlisting in armed forces.............. whats so difficult to understand........... if one from other part of India in Punjab says I am a KSHTRIYA the Punjabi people will say oooooooooooo so you are a KHATRI (Punjabi automatically pronounce it as Khatri). Thats it, got that................. Ludhiana Gazeeteer of Government of Punjab also clearly mentions that and the fact that they have moved into commerce traditionally been the occupation of Vaisya (merchant) caste People, GAZETTEER LUDHIANA, Department of Revenue, Government of Punjab (India), Homepage:.

Do not vandalize the entry again specially user Trips as he bringing a South Indian perspective this this whole Punjabi issue it seems, changing the basic meaning of entry continually ignoring the given reference.

Atulsnischal (talk) 05:07, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Overriding references with opinions is a violation of WP policy. Trips (talk) 05:33, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Can you kindly check this reference where it is all explained = as well known in Punjab and amongst Punjabi people in North India:


 * People, GAZETTEER LUDHIANA, Department of Revenue, Government of Punjab (India),

Home Page:

The entry says something and you continually change the meaning to read it as otherwise...... other references not having any mastery of Punjabi history have distorted the meaning, hence they amount to bogus references here and are unreliable. Find references from Punjab from amongst people who know local facts and history etc.

Atulsnischal (talk) 05:44, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Again, one source states that "most scholars place them in the Vaisya caste" and EB also states them repeatedly as a merchant caste. In addition, finding sources that state Khatri to be a merchant community are easy and widespread. Claiming that Britannica is a bogus source lowers your credibility as an editor. Trips (talk) 06:00, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

HERE these references are bogus as they have not done their research properly and they are not local to Punjab and up to date, it is commonsense that all kinds of references can be found and a complete distorted story can be created with factually weak and wrong references, you are getting into a ego match with me, and i have no time to oblige you in this unnecessary discussion and waste of time. Government of Punjab reference is most accurate for now, if you want, come up with some Punjab references please.

Khatri living any where in India from couple of hundred of years and speaking any language now dosent mean that it is not a Punjabi language word (Khatri is originally a Punjabi language word, it can be used by any number of Kshtriya people who originate from Punjab at one time even hundreds of years ago and now live in other states of India speaking other languages).

Thanks

Atulsnischal (talk) 06:25, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I have provided another source for everyone to see. In fact, you can even read the book online through GOOGLE BOOKS. They have taken photo copies of each page, and posted them online. Read the pages listed below, and you will see the TRUE history of Khatris/Kshatriyas.

'Denzil Ibbetson, Edward MacLagan, H.A. Rose "A Glossary of The Tribes & Casts of The Punjab & North-West Frontier Province",'' 1911 AD, Page 501-526, Vol II, Ibid, Page 537-538, Vol II.'''

TrippingNambiar, let me ask you a few questions, if Khatris are of Vaishya caste....

1. Then how is it that certain groups were able to split off to start Sikhism, which all of the 10 Gurus were of Khatri descent? Answer me this...

2. Hypothetically speaking, if Khatris are of Vaisyha descent, then why would many tribes and families of Rajputs (who claim to be higher in the caste ranking) and even Jatts and other tribes follow a religion (Sikhism) if it was started by a group of lower caste Khatris as you so proclaim? Meaning, why would people who hold themselves in higher authority (higer caste) follow a religion started by people (Gurus) of a lower caste?

3. Why is it that the Kshatriya caste (the monarchy family lineage) of Nepal is called Chetri?? Do you see how the use of the word for Kshatriya is Chetri in the Nepali dialect.....just like the Punjabi dialect of using Khatri for Kshatriya. Khatri = Chetri = Kshatriya.

I really don't understand why Khatris have to explain this to sooooo many people. I really think most of the arugement people make against the Khatri / Kshatriya linkage is out of jealousy and envy, which I think people....starting with you TrippingNambiar, need to get over and just live life.....because at the end of the day, the caste system is BS, and more and more educated people do not really follow it. You only find it in the pockets of the illiterate-poor villages scattered throughout India. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KhatriNYC (talk • contribs) 16:29, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I made the appropriate changes for the Khatris on this page. I believe, and others will testify that my case about the Khatris is correct. In fact, there needs to be no case when the truth should not be questioned. if it was fallacy, then we could argue the case.

TrippingNambiar or any others who are disputing Khatris, please at least answer the questions above before making your case to have this page reverted back.

Thanks all —Preceding unsigned comment added by KhatriNYC (talk • contribs) 19:01, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

KhatriNYC, Kshatriyas r never jealous of Khatris r any other caste, only thing is Kshatriyas feel insulted when Khatris themselves call Kshatriyas. Funny thing is that, in Khatris wiki page itself, for Kshatriya they r providing citation to Kshatriya wiki page instead of any Historical inscriptions/ books. All Kshatriyas who r listed hav royal history at point of time atleast, would like to know any royal background of Khatris. Either tripping nambiar r me r any other Kshatriya we r just following history n respecting our history we dont believe in POVs like the sock puppets of KhatriNYC..... Request Atulsnischal/KhatriNYC/jeygvyas (who seem to b same) not to make this WP messy Indianprithvi (talk) 12:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

please cite your sources. Wikipedia isn't built by the Socratic method. No sources, no dispute. --dab (𒁳) 18:46, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

How do I edit the page? Admin, please give me access rights to edit the article page
Also, how come TrippingNambiar has ignored to answer my questions above? Seems pretty obvious.

In anycase, Please grant my username access rights to make edits to the Kshatriya article page.

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.230.38.115 (talk) 16:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've unprotected the page mainly because no expiry date was set and it's been about a week now. However, please keep an eye on the edit warring, and if you get reverted, stop editing and discuss things on the talk page, and wait to edit the article until there's a consensus. If problems continue, the page may be reprotected. Thanks. Hers fold  (t/a/c) 17:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

no expiry was set because there is nothing wrong with semi-protecting articles with talkpages looking like this one for extended periods. All bona fide users can still edit. dab (𒁳) 16:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Khatri
so, we have this extremely WP:LAME edit war about where to list the Khatri. Neither side condescends to cite any source at all, let alone an academic one. We'll obviously go with whichever side can back up their claims with some kind of source. Until then, this is futile, and the article belongs tagged as unsourced either way. --dab (𒁳) 16:20, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Will do. Actually, if you click the "Khatri" link, there are several sites that provide evidence and facts. But if this page needs it, I will post citations as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KhatriNYC (talk • contribs) 18:05, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * that's better. Be sure to make them WP:RS -- random web pages do not count. Cite a quotable references for whatever point it is you want to make. --dab (𒁳) 18:47, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Theres no edit war, I agree that sources such as Britannica are not thoroughly accurate in some aspects and that Khatris were likely to be Kshatriyas originally. However an extremely confused user called KhatriNYC seems to take pleasure in reverting formatting changes. Though one source claiming that most scholars identify Khatris as a merchant caste has yet to be responded to. Trips (talk) 07:31, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

TrippingNambiar, and which source is that? which source says most scholars identify Khatris as merchants? Please provide that to me.

ADMIN, I AM REQUESTING YOU BLOCK USER TrippingNambiar on the grounds that he is removing a citation/reference that I provided for Khatris.

The only confounded person here on this page is you TrippingNambiar. Did you know, that most south Indians are NOT even pure Kshatriya blood (Aryan). I am most promoting racial tension here, I am just stating the facts and differences between north Indians and south Indians. It was only when the Vedic culture spread southward into lower India did they bring the idea of the caste system, thus giving certain southern tribes in India Brahmin status, Kshatriya status, and Vaishya status, and so forth

And believe me, I take no pleasure in reverting formatting changes. The only pleasure I take is making sure this article provides the correct information, and proving you wrong over and over again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KhatriNYC (talk • contribs) 14:14, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Radhasoami Reality, Mark Juergensmeyer, p16, 1995. Your opinion on other matters is really not required. Trips (talk) 16:26, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes thank you for finally providing something, if even contributing something as small as a book reference.....thats a good start TrippingNambiar (not being facetious hmmm)

1. If you read pg. 16 in the Radhasoami Reality book, and then look at the citations on the bottom of the page, it even says "it should be noted that the term Khatri is derived from Kshatriya". Where are you going with this??

2. It should also be noted and researched who represent the census for "most scholars", as scholars from different parts of India, and even scholars of different lineage of castes claim different views of groups. Even though the caste system is becoming more and more obsolete amongst the more educated, there is still a mind-set that cannot escape the grasp of the castes.

Still, we are going on over a week here, and you still haven't answered any of my questions above. Are you ignoring them on purpose? --KhatriNYC (talk) 17:20, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

ADMIN: PLEASE ENFORCE THIS - Citations for other groups CLAIMING to be Kshatriya
Please provide citations for other groups claiming to be Kshatriyas. A citation was requested for Khatris, so it is only fair that all other groups claiming Kshatriya status provide citations/references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KhatriNYC (talk • contribs) 00:29, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

KhatriNYC,

Lalaji, gussa na khayo :-) Please note that I did not put citation needed tag on Khatris in Suryavanshi section. I believe they are based on Bachitar Natak account. But I very much doubt whether they have any Chandravanshi infusion. Are you referring to Bhatias of Punjab here?

Secondly, even Jutts have been classified as Kshatriyas. Why not enlist everybody as Kshatriya? Neither Bharatpur nor Patiala Jats were ever classified as Kshatriyas by any tradition. Simply having Rajput gotras does not make any group kshatriyas or chandravanshis.

You are right all groups should provide citations and it should be enforced by admin. If you are so sure there are chandravanshi khatris, then there should not be any hesitation in providing references. I am only trying to learn from you Take later--History Sleuth (talk) 02:13, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You are right History Sleuth. But I don't understand, why you ask others to provide their citations for Kshatriya status (despite it being quite known and accepted that Khatris are Kshatriya too) yet you surpass the Saini references? None of the citations given actually say in a straight forward way, "SAINIS ARE KSHATRIYA".


 * For example;


 * 1) ^ King Shoorsena identified as the leader of Yadu clan: "Formerly, Shoorsena (Surasena), the chief of the Yadu dynasty, had gone to live in the city of Mathura. There he enjoyed the places known as Mathura and Shoorsena (Surasena)" (SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM by Krsna-Dwaipayana Vyasa, Translation: A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada & others, Cantos 10, Chapter Seventeen - The Supreme Lord Agrees to Become Aditi's Son, verse 27)
 * Nowhere does it state Saini of today are Kshatriya, hence a false and misleading reference.


 * 1) ^ Yudhisthra identifies Shoorsena as his grandfather, and Krishna's father, Vasudeva, as his maternal uncle in Srimad Bhavat Purana : "Is my respectable grandfather Shoorsena in a happy mood? And are my maternal uncle Vasudeva and his younger brothers all doing well?" (SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM by Krsna-Dwaipayana Vyasa, Translation: A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada & others, Chapter Eleven, Lord Krsna's Entrance into Dvaraka, verse 26)
 * Again Saini being Kshatriya not cited?


 * 1) ^ Descendants of Shoorsena identified as a distinct Yadava clan and Krishna's kinsmen: "Assisted by the descendants of Bhoja, Vrsni, Andhaka, Madhu, Shoorsena, Dasarha, Kuru, Srnjaya and Pandu, Lord Krsna performed various activities." (SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM by Krsna-Dwaipayana Vyasa, Translation: A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada & others, Cantos 9, Chapter Twenty-four Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead, verse 63)
 * It says Shoorsenas descendants were helped by others, BUT DOES NOT state that Saini's are kshatriya!


 * 1) ^ Krishna identified as Shoorseni(Shoorsaini): "Foremost among all the Shoorsenis, the powerful one, Krishna, residing at Dwaraka , will rule and protect the whole earth after vanquishing all her lords, conversant as he will be with the science of polity."( Mahabharata, Book 13, Chapter 147)
 * Nope, cant see Saini being kshatriya here....


 * 1) ^ First wave of Shoorseni (Yadava) or Saini migration to Punjab (West of Mathura) : "The eighteen tribes of the Bhojas, from fear of Jarasandha, have all fled towards the west; so also have the Shoorsenis"(Mahabharata, Book 2, Chapter 14)
 * Can't see it here either dude....


 * 1) ^ Prince Arjuna settles some more Shoorseni (Yadava) in Punjab : "As soon as Krishna died, the parijata tree and the assembly hall named Sudharma returned to heaven. The kali era began. And the city of Dvaraka was swallowed up by the sea, with the exception of Krishna’s own dwelling. Arjuna settled some of the Yadavas in Punjab." ( Visnu Purana, Section 5)
 * I wonder where it says Saini BEING KSHATRIYA......


 * 1) ^ An account of a Shoorseni or Saini General leading a Rajput force as late as 14 Century CE : "The rai was in affright, and sent for Gurdan Saini, who was the most experienced warrior amongst the 40,000 rawats under the rai, and had seen many fights among the Hindus. "Sometimes he had gone with the advance to Malwa ; sometimes he had gone plundering in Gujarat." The Saini took 10,000 rawats with him from Jhain, and advanced against the Turks, and, after a severe action, he was slain..." (Excerpted from Amir Khusro's Ghurratu-L-Kamal, The History of India, as Told by Its Own Historians",Henry Miers Elliot and John Dowson,
 * Interesting, but you're inferring (through the sock puppet of Internet Scholar, or vice versa?) that Sainis are now also Rajput? And yet you come on this article requesting all others INCLUDING RAJPUTS to provide their citations? Why the double standard I wonder....


 * A tribe claiming Rajput status cannot necessarily automatically claim descent from ancient chandravanshi and suryavanshi lineages. Several of the Rajput tribes contain bloodlines that are descended from Huns, Kushans and even aboriginal elements like Gonds and Meenas, all of whom were outside the kshatriya fold. At many points in the history of India, even Shudras have risen to power and got mixed with Rajput class. For example, when Huen Tsang came to India, Mathura kingdom was under Shudra king as per his account. The descent of Maurya dynasty that ruled India is also uncertain.  The words Rajput and Kshatriya  are not necessarily inter-changeable. Therefore citation request should not be out of order.--Internet Scholar (talk) 15:26, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


 * But again, I can't seem to find a citation that the Saini are a branded, acknowledged Kshatriya in this citation either?


 * ''My personal opinion of them is that they have had some martial presence in history, but what I think would be appropriate here is;


 * a) Stop using sock puppets on wikipedia


 * b) Provide citations that prove your point. I am sure there must be one SOMEWHERE saying that today Saini are still Kshatriya? If there isn't, then dont bring theorisations here and play sockpuppetry with the wikipedia community.....--~Raja~ (talk) 21:46, 8 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Ugh, that was a lot of WP:OR original research from primary sources. I'm gonna replace all of it with a secondary source that actually states what is needed Rajasthan, page 846. I couldn't find more open-access online sources, but all sources seemed to agree on the Kshatriya status. --Enric Naval (talk) 00:34, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I stand corrected, Enric, and thanks. I added the following secondary source references to substantiate Kshatriya/Rajput status with regard to Sainis of Punjab and their Yadava origin:


 * "In the Punjab in the sub- mountainous region the community came to be known as 'Saini'. It maintained its Rajput character despite migration." Castes and Tribes of Rajasthan, pp108,Sukhvir Singh Gahlot, Banshi Dhar, Jain Brothers, 1989


 * People of India: Haryana, pp 430, Kumar Suresh Singh, Madan Lal Sharma, A. K. Bhatia, Anthropological Survey of India, Published on behalf of Anthropological Survey of India by Manohar Publishers, 1994


 * Note: Sainis of Punjab and Rajasthan are not same and do not inter-marry. The link posted by you clearly states that this group started calling itself Saini only in 20th century. Scholars like Barstow and Census of British India did not acknowledge the existence of Sainis outside Punjab. A lot of groups in 20th century started claiming to be Saini to get recruited in army as Sainis were enlisted as part of martial classes from which the British Indian Army exclusively recruited. Similarly Khumars, or potters, of Punjab claimed to be Jats to get enrolled in Army. --Internet Scholar (talk) 14:10, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Please note I also added references to Seuna Yadavas under the same list. They were an important Yadava dynasty of central India.--Internet Scholar (talk) 17:33, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Request for courteous discussion
Editors would be well advised to


 * bear in mind that attacks on other editors do not descend to attacks on entire communitys.


 * An editor posting on wikipedia is not the only representative or sole spokesperson for of any one community.


 * Recurrent deletions of content pertaining to a community even in the face of citations on other articles smacks of personal vindictiveness.

Cheers

Intothefire (talk) 05:31, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

RAJPUT SATTELED IN MAHARASTRA
RAJPUT SATTELED IN MAHARASTRA

DORE GUJARS, who number forty-one families. [The forty-one families, kuls, are: Pavars of Dhargadh, Chohans of Nagelgadh, Simal of Dodgadh, Ghelot of Ahirgadh, Kaba of Dhondgadh, Khavi of Modgadh, Solanki of Rohadgadh, Chauthan of Kampegadh, Mori of Chitodgadh, Nikumbh of Modgadh, Toka of Asirgadh, Gohel of Khedgadh, Chavda of patangadh, Jhala of Patargadh, Dodiye of Jaitpur, Vaghela of Budhelagadh, Huna of Akhilgadh, Survate of Bubbati, Gujaric of Palegadh, Padhikar of Sodhagadh, Nimbol of Jhatangadh, Devare of Taragadh. Bhagesa of Ramgadh, Kagva of Kalpigadh, Wanhol of Dhauhaligadh, Dode of Krishnagadh, Tovar of Delhi, Khapre of Gajyaiwadh, Khichi of Analvadgadh, Jadav of Junagadh, Makvane of Makdaigadh, Barod of Bahmangadh, Dabhi of Kapadvagadh, Harihar of Hormajgadh, Gaud of Ajmir, Javkhedye of Shvetbandha, Sakhele of Ranjea, Bhatele of Jotpur, Suryavanshi of Sarvargadh, Borsi or Borad of Borigadh, and Kalumba of Rumigadh. Mr. J. Pollen, C. S,] are said originally to have been Dor Rajputs. [Dor Rajputs have disappeared from Rajputana where they were once famous and included in the thirty-six royal races. (Tod's Rajasthan, I. 105).

REFERENCE FROM :- www.maharashtra.gov.in/pdf/gazeetter_reprint/Khandesh/population_race.

The Rane Rajputs have such surnames as Jadhav and Shisode, and any two of their tribes can intermarry. They have sixteen houses in Yaval, and they do not eat with Kunbis. The Rane Rajputs of Dandaiche and Sindkheda hunt and eat flesh, fowl and fish, and drink wine. Their women never appear in public and would die rather than work on roads or in fields. They sew bodices, but neither spin nor weave. Besides these four classes, Suryavanshi Rajputs are found in Nimar and on the borders of Savda and Bhusaval. They neither eat with other Rajputs nor allow widow marriage. The higher families are known by the title of Thakur.

REFERENCE FROM :- www.maharashtra.gov.in/pdf/gazeetter_reprint/Khandesh/population_race.

Some common surname of Maharastra: -

Rane,Deore,Devre,Rathore,Shisode,Jadhav.

1.RANE: - Is most common surname found in Maharastra, and it resemble with that of Rana’s surname found in Rajputana as for the behavior the people of Rajput who fight bravely in battle field have such a title of Rana’s. It seem that the Rajput who fight bravely in Maharastra have such title of Rane’s. “It seems that due to the nature of prakrit language used in Maharastra that is marathi the Rana is pronounced as Rane”. The Rane Rajputs have such surnames as Jadhav and Shisode, and any two of their tribes can intermarry.

REFERENCE FROM :- www.maharashtra.gov.in/pdf/gazeetter_reprint/Khandesh/population_race.

2.DEORE: - Is most common surname found in Maharastra, and it resemble with that of Deora surname found in Rajputana. “It seems that due to the nature of prakrit language used in Maharastra that is marathi the Deora is pronounced as Deore”.And many people in Deore community add singh as middle name.

Deore Or Deora are descendent of Chouhan or Chauhan rajput of Agnikul Rajput or Agnivanshi Rajput.

3. DEVRE: - Is most common surname found in Maharastra, and it resemble with that of Devra surname found in Rajputana. “It seems that due to the nature of prakrit language used in Maharastra that is marathi the Devra is pronounced as Devre”.And many people in Devre community add singh as middle name. For example:- Rajendrasingh Bhimsingh Devre (Samajwadi Party).

Devre Or Devra are descendent of Chouhan or Chauhan Rajput of Agnikul Rajput or Agnivanshi Rajput.

Hada Kshatriya: Gothra - Vatsa. Devi - Ashapuri. Guru - Vashishtha. Ved - Samved. King Maniklal was from Hada vansha. One of the famous personality from this vansha is Ramdeva. Hada Kshatriya Vansha is also popularly known as Hadouti. States - Bundi, Kota. There is a history of Brave Hada Rani. Branches - Udawat, Devra, Devre, Jaitawat, Chandrawat.

REFERENCE FROM :-

REFERENCE OF NAME IN EXAMPLE IS FROM:- 02nd April: Election 2004 Nomination Scrutiny: All the nominations received for Parliamentary elections 2004 were scrutinise on 01st April. The authorities found two nominations incomplete/ disqualified from Jalgaon while three from Erandol. After final scrutiny, the party wise candidate listing is as under: Jalgaon Parliamentary Constituency: Dr. Ulhas Vasudev Patil (Congress I), Y. G. Mahajan (B.J.P.), Pandurang Eknath Patil (P.E. Tatya Patil - Samajwadi Party), Dnyaneshwar Divakar Patil (Independent), Ravindra Tulsiram Gavai (BSP), and Dagdu Kitab Tadvi (Independent). Erandol Parliamentary Constituency: M. K. Anna Patil (B.J.P.), Vasantrao Jivanrao More (NCP), Rajendrasingh Bhimsingh Devre (Samajwadi Party), Suresh Pandurang Patil (Hindustan Janta Party), and Gautam Sambhaji More (BSP). Now final picture will be clear only after 5th April, which is last date of withdrawing nominations.

http://www.ejalgaon.com/news

REFERENCE OF DEVRE AS HADA RAJPUT FROM :- RAJPUT VANSHAWALI It is very interesting for the current generation to know that your family stream goes back to one Rajput Raja - Lord Emperor. A Rajput vansha tree begins with one of the 36 Rajvansha. Renouned research scholars of our community Late Dr. Indradev Singh Nikumbh and Thakur Ishwarsingh Madadh had published Kshatriya Bhaskar and Rajput Vanshawali after studying different materials on Rajput Vansha. They also included valuable informations by one english scholar Col. Tod. Here we are giving a brief summary of popular vanshas. You can try to search history of your forefathers and to relate your family with appropriate Rajput King.

Kshatriya Community Portal.htm Copyright © 2008 Kshatriya Society.All rights reserved. Powered by : Geomatic Systems

4.RATHUR: - Is most common surname found in Maharastra, and it resemble with that of Rathor surname found in Rajputana. “It seems that due to the nature of prakrit language used in Maharastra that is marathi the Rathor is pronounced as Rathur”.And many people in Rathore community add singh as middle name.

REFERENCE FROM :- wikipedia.org/wiki/Rathore

5.SHISODE: - Is most common surname found in Maharastra, and it resemble with that of Shisodya surname found in Rajputana. “It seems that due to the nature of prakrit language used in Maharastra that is marathi the Shisodya is pronounced as Shisode”.And many people in shisode community add singh as middle name.Shisode are descendent of Surjavanshi Rajput from Ghelot Rajput. His clan was renamed Sisodia after the name of their village "Sisoda". The Sisodia (also known as Sesodia or Shishodia or Shishodya or Sisodya or Sisodhya).

REFERENCE FROM :- www.maharashtra.gov.in/pdf/gazeetter_reprint/Khandesh/population_race.

6.JADHAV: - Is most common surname found in Maharastra, and it resemble with that of Jadav,Jadon surname found in Rajputana.And many people in Jadhav community add singh as middle name.As pre record Jadhav are the descendent of yadav or Chandervanshi rajput. For example:- Khashaba Dadasaheb Jadhav, India's first individual Olympic medalist. Namdev Jadav (Victoria Cross recipient)

REFERENCE FROM :- wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadav Sagar singh devre jklqwe@gmail.com59.95.128.247 (talk) 11:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)59.95.128.247 (talk) 11:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

MARATHA ARE RAJPUT
Some rajput clan are divided and made a new clan for a common cause whom are know as or whom called as mahrattas or Marathas.

Maratha clan system :-Kshatriya, warriors, commoner and peasants.

Its seem that Marāthās or Mahrattas are nothing but a rajput clan. The list of main clans and their sub-clans or lines tended to differ from time to time, and by book to book. A commonly-accepted 96 clan list includes 24 suryavanshi clans, 24 chandravanshi clans, 24 bramhavanshi clans and 24 Nagavanshi clans. Past political conditions were harsh and chaotic. Name changes occurred for many reasons. People changed their name to shield themselves from military conflicts, or from religious, political, caste persecution and discrimination. Others did so to hide from a criminal past. Some people chose to go underground, or migrated to a different region and changed their name in the process. Evidence suggests[citation needed] that some people or an entire clan changed their name but did not change their caste when they migrated to new region or came an under government. It is difficult process to identify and prepare clans lines that are completely correct and some Maratha surnames and clans are missing from this list. The list in this article was created by the scholar Vyasa rishi with the help of other rishis such as Vamdev, Shuk and others. They established that the Great Maratha clans are descendants of all 56 Royal Houses of India. According to Arya, the Hindu religion in India was divided into 56 sub nations. The Mahabharata War was destructive and left these nations in general disarray.[citation needed] This was the start of the Kaliyuga age. In order to keep the religion alive, the rishis linked the Kshytriyas, warriors, and Royal houses with a strong bond by creating the Maratha Clan System from the 56 royal houses of India. Before the 12 century there was no difference between southern Kshatriya (Marathas) and northern Kshatriya (Rajputs). The first Rajput clan list was prepared in 12th century and the difference was set. Intermarrying and other Kshatriya traditions were stopped. VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE:-IN MAHRATTAS OR MARATHAS CLAN SYSTEM MARATHA IS REFFERED AS A GROUR OF PEOPLE ASSOCIATED TOGETHER FOR A COMMON CAUSE. THE GROUP OF PEOPLE INCLUDE KSHATRIYA, WORRIORS, COMMONER,AND,PEASANTS OR KURMI OR KUNBI CASTE.

Kshatriya :- is one of the four varnas in Hinduism. Initially in ancient Vedic society, this position was achieved on the merits of a person's aptitude (guna), conduct (karma), and nature (swabhava). The earliest Vedic literature listed the Kshatriya (holders of kṣatra, or authority) as first in rank, then the Brahmins (priests and teachers of law), next the Vaisya (merchant-traders), and finally the Sudra (artisans and labourers). Movements of individuals and groups from one class to another, both upward and downward, were not uncommon; a rise in status even to the rank of Kshatriya was a recognized reward for outstanding service to the rulers of the day.[1] Over the years it became hereditary. In modern times, the Kshatriya varna includes a broad class of caste groups, differing considerably in status and function but united by their claims to rulership, the pursuit of war, or the possession of land.

warriors :- In tribal societies engaging in endemic warfare, warriors often form a caste or class of their own. In feudalism, the vassals essentially form a military or warrior class, even if in actual warfare, peasants may be called to fight as well. In some societies, warfare may be so central that the entire people (or, more often large parts of the male population) may be considered warriors, for example in the Iron Age Germanic tribes or the Medieval Rajputs. According to the Random House Dictionary, the term warrior has two meanings. The first literal use refers to "a person engaged or experienced in warfare." The second figurative use refers to "a person who shows or has shown great vigor, courage, or aggressiveness, as in politics or athletics."

commoner :-any member of the Royal Family.

peasants :- Kurmi (Hindi: कुर्मी), In Hindu society there have traditioanlly been four varnas - 1. Bharmanya 2. Kshatriya 3. Vaisya 4. Kshdrya, - these were decided on the basis of the work done by individuals.People from Kurmi community belong to a caste of Kshatriya varna. Kurmis are believed to be the direct descendants of the earliest Aryan tribes, as well as the well known Suryavansha Kshatriya dynasty in the line of Lord Rama. "Kurmi" is the chief ancient agricultural caste of India. The Singraur, Umrao, Awadhya, Gangwar, Kanbi, Kapu, Katiyar, Kulambi, Jaiswar, Kulwadi, Kunbi, Kutumbi, Patel, Sachan, Verma all are sub communities comes under community "Kurmi". "Kurmi" in Sanskrit, which is frequently used in the Ramayana, literally translates as "I can" or "I am able", or "within my power to act". In other words, those who are not Kurmi are not able,incompetent or without power to act. Some very common examples of the usage of the word in Sanskrit from the Ramayana are as follows : 1)'yat na kurmi' sadresam priyam... (Valmiki Ramayana, Book 6, Sarga 1). 'I am not able' to do a pleasant act... 2)'na kurmi' tvam bhasmam (Valmiki Ramayana, Book 5, Sarga 22) According to the Revd. Sherring, "The Kurmi has a strong, bony hand, natural to a man of his employment. He is frequently tall and powerful, manly outspoken and independent in manner and is altogether free from cringing obsequiousness". Colonel Dalton of British East India Company, while doing classification of Indian castes, regarded them as the descendants of some of the earliest Aryan Colonists and described them as a brown, tawny-colored people, of an average height, well proportioned and with a fair amount of good looks. They show well-shaped heads and high features, they are unquestionably Aryans in looks. Grey eyes and brownish hair are sometimes met with amongst them The women usually have small and well formed hands and feet [1] The Aryan link remains unproven. See Aryan Invasion Theory. The link between Kurmis and agriculture has been justified on the grounds of linguistic affinities between the root "ar" (bravery, heroism, found in English and Greek hero, Russian geroj and Sanskrit arya) and other words for cultivators i.e. those who labour nobly (Russian oratel or ploughman, Airga in the Zend-Avesta), as well as in the legend of King "Prithu", who tamed the earth to make fertile again. It is for this reason that the Sanskrit word for "earth" is "Prithvi", in honour of the Aryan king "Prithu" who first cultivated the earth. In the words of Thomas Jefferson, "cultivators of the Earth are the most virtuous and independent citizens." Kurmis have been held as straightforward, brave and stubborn in their nature, and during the late 15th century tended to be held as warriors by most natural farming clans. Especially in Maharashtra where they took up arms against the mughals and other foreigners under the Indian hero Shivaji. Likewise, they also took up arms against the British and a Kurmi general commanded the armies of the Begum of Oudh in her fight against the Bristish in 1857. Kurmis today are to be found in all professions including politics, films, medicine, law, administrative services, and business as well as the traditional occupation of agriculture. [edit] Kshatriyas and agriculture As per ancient Hindu texts, agriculture is permissible to Kshatriyas under special circumstances[78] in the absence of opportunities in the military and feudal apparatus of a righteous Aryan king. Indeed, the service in the army of an unrighteous, or a 'Yavana', or a 'Maleccha', king was the biggest imaginable anathema for a concentious and observant vedic kshatriya in ancient India. A vedic kshatriya was not a mercenary soldier but a defender of faith and righteous order (dharma). All other kshatriya origin Hindu tribes in Punjab, like Minhas, Janjua, Salahri, etc, in the absence of opportunities in the armies of observant vedic kings turned to agriculture in some way. Common Rajput surnames include: Hada, Jaswal, Janjua (Janjuah), Sulehri, Thakur, Tomar, (Tanwar), Chauhan,Pathni/Pathani [पथनी], Pokhariya, Gahlaut or Gehlot or Rana, Rathore, (Rathod), Ranawat, Pundir, Parmar (Panwar), Jadaon, Jadeja [જાડેજા], Kushwaha or Kachwaha, Bhatti or Bhati, Deora, Papola, Bisht, Digari, Rautela, Sirari, Manral, Minhas (Manhas), Khurmi, Katoch, Parihar (Prihar, Parhar), Shekhawat, Bhadoria, Rawal, Rawat, Sikarwar, Surwar, Sankhla, Sarna, Solanki, Chandel, Shahdeo, Pawar, Dhakare, Kanwar, Zala, Dangi, Madadh, Lodhi, Singraul.

References:-WIKIPEDIA

Common Maratha surnames include: Ahirs, Bhosale or Bhonsle(is a rajput surname descendent from sisodia rajput clan), Chavan or Chauhan, Chalukya (Chalke) or Chalukyas, Gujar (Bargujar) or Gujjar, Gaikwad or Gaykawad or Gaekwad, Jadhav or Yadava, Kardam or Kadam or Kadambas or Kalhapure, Maurya or Morey or Moray or More, Nalawde (Nal) or Nala, Pawar or Ponwar or Paramara, Pratihara or Parihara, Palwe or Pallava or Palav or Pallavas, Rathod or Rothe, Chandle or Chandela, Rane or Rana, Raut or Raoot, Shilahar or Shelar or Shelor ( Silhara dynasty), Salvi or Satavahanas, Andhras, Salunkhe, Salunke, Solanki, Shisode, Sisodia, Thakur, Thakoor, Thakore, Tonwar, Tuwar,Tomara, Taware, Surve,

References:-WIKIPEDIA              sagar singh devre  sonu 11:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sagarsinghdevre (talk • contribs)

“MAHARATTHA OR MARATHA OR MAHARATHI”
First of all i want to refer that the word MARATHA is a corrupt form of MAHARATTHA that in hindi it means MAHARATHI. Second of all maratha or maharattas are ratthi of the medieval era and the family like:- 1.BHOSLE (RAJPUT GHELOTE) 2.JADHAV (RAJPUT YADAV) 3.SHIRKE 4.MORE (RAJPUT MAURYA) 5.MOHITE RAJPUT CHOUHAN OR CHAVAN) 6.SAVANT (SURYAVANSHI RAJPUT BRANCH OF KADAMB) 7.SURVE (SURYAVANSHI RAJPUT DESCENDENT FROM LORD RAM) 8.GHORPADE (RAJPUT GEHELOTE BRANCH OF BHOSLE) 9.CHAVAN (BRANCH: -LAD) (AGNIVANSHI RAJPUT OR RAJPUT CHOUHAN) 10.PAWAR (AGNIVANSHI RAJPUT OR RAJPUT PONWAR OR PARMAR) 11.SALONKE (AGANIVANSHI RAJPUT OR RAJPUT SOLANKI) 12.AHIRRAO OR AHIR (YADU VANSHI RAJPUT  RAJPUT AHIR) (BRANCH: -DHAMPAL FROM KING DHAMPAL) 13.KHANVILKAR 14.CHOLKE (AGANIVANSHI RAJPUT OR RAJPUT CHALUKYA) 15.MANE (MANE IS A TITLE GIVEN TO RAJPUT GAUR IN MAHARASTRA AND GUJRAT) (GAUR RAJPUT) 16.DALVI (BRANCH OF:- PAWAR OR PONWAR OR PARMAR) 17.KADAMB OR KADAM (BRANCH :- KALE) 18.JAGTAP (DESCENDENT FROM SOMAVANSHI KING VASUSENA “MAHARATTHI KARAN”) 19.RANE (RAJPUT RANA) 20.RAUT 21.ROTHE (RAJPUT RATHODE) 22.PALWE OR PALLAVA 23.GANGAS (RAJPUT YADU) 24.KALACHURI OR KALACHURE (RAJPUT HAIHAYA) 25.NALAWADE OR NALA (RAJPUT NALA) 26.SHISODE (RAJPUT SISODIA OR SHISODIA OR SHISODYA) 27.THAKUR OR THAKOR (SURYAVANSHI RAJPUT) 28.TAWARE (TAWAR OR TUWAR OR TOMARA OR TONWAR OR TUAR) (SOMAVANSHI RAJPUT DESCENDENT FROM SOMVANSHI KING ARJUN) 29.CHANDLE (CHANDALE) 30.BARGUJAR (SURYAVANSHI RAJPUT) 31.DOR RAJPUT OR DORGUJAR (SURYAVANSHI RAJPUT) 32.GAEKWAD (YADUVANSHI RAJPUT) (BRANCH SHITOLE) 33.NIKAM (RAJPUT NIKUMBH) 34.PRATHIHAR.

NOTE :-ANY SUB-DIVISION OR ANY DECENDENT FROM A RAJPUT VANSHA RESULT IN A RAJPUT ORIGIN.

REFERENCE :-WEKIPEDIA 2. http://books.google.co.in/books?id=lYSd-3yL9h0C&pg=PA475&lpg=PA475&dq=Khanvilkars&source=bl&ots=aClmCh04PN&sig=KA43BfJit8CPfFJXDrFxPbsHVXk&hl=en&ei=TBzOSdfmDqWK6APiwPTXAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result. sonu 12:01, 10 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sagarsinghdevre (talk • contribs)

The discussion about Khatris being Kshatriyas must end
I dont have any doubts that Khatris were Kshatriyas though most of them are businessman now.India is a subcontinent and any invader could come through by one route only during ancient times.Most of the invaders used this route through Khyber pass and Hindukush mountains.Thus they arrived the fertile lands of Punjab first.So Punjabi Kshatriyas faced most of there attacks.Gradually it became a province ruled by Greeks and then Muslims.Most of the Kshatriyas of Punjab lost their lands and became merchants.All the Sikh gurus from Guru Nanak ji to Guru Govind Singh ji were Khatris.Vaisyas never had any interest in reforming the society or providing leadership while Kshatriyas were always in front in such matters.So it should be born in mind that they were Kshatriyas. The word Khatri is Apabhramsa of Kshatriya.If we remove last two letters from Kshatriya it becomes Kshatri and if we remove 's' further it becomes Khatri.Kshatriya in Uttar Pradesh are addressed as Chatari while in Rajasthani Chatari means Umbrela.The language spoken by general public of northern India was always different from Sanskrit.Therefore Buddha always gave sermons in Pali.His 'dharma' was called 'dhamma' in Pali.The sanskrit word 'Rajputra' deformed in Hindi and Rajasthani as Rajput.The Sanskrit word 'Putra' was also deformed as 'Put'.So we call a good son as 'Saput' and a bad son as 'Kaput'.While Sanskrit name of thease words is 'Suputra' and 'Kuputra'. So it very clear that Punjabi Kshatriyas were called Khatris by general public.Centuries ago they lost their identity as Kshatriyas and were identified as merchants,the profession they were forced to adopt.But they originated from Kshatriyas.So I would request the hot debate on this point must end.

--Let there be light 16:50, 2 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Let me peer (talk • contribs)


 * Agree. Khatris are of a reputable Kshatriya background. They took to business only during Muslim rule. I am sure it will not be difficult to prove it with references. One could just read Dasam Granth which discusses the lineage of Bedis and Sodhis from Lord Rama's family. They are an outstanding group of people .--Internet Scholar (talk) 19:22, 3 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Were there a competition for most vandled aritcle in wikipedia ,


 * the article on Khatris would be a frontrunner for first past the post.


 * A motley crew of determined users ferociously excercise the wikipedia privelage to post vandal edits


 * Verifiable content with Citations, references , and quotes from reliable sources are continously deleted.


 * Trashy posts are inserted.


 * But then this is not a malice afflicting the Khatri article alone ....


 * it is in the august company of hundreds of articles


 * where the root cause or criteria applied  for


 * deletion is .....lo and behold ....verifiable content.

Cheers Intothefire (talk) 03:49, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The problem is that Khatris become successful in everything they do, be it army , art or business. They get top in every field because an overwhelming number of them is extremely well educated. Since they were located in the urban areas, they were among the first groups of Punjabis to benefit from British education system in 19th century. This gave them leadership in almost every field. It is natural for lesser groups to get envious and write trash about them. This may be the expression of Freud's penis envy as caste envy... just kidding...Go Khatris!

Periyar
Dear Readers, Please understand india is a democracy ( of course after the british left) Periayar reaffirmed the dravidian identity that was almost erased by the british white rule aided by the bramhinical groups imposing the caste system for which arya varta had to be transgressed so that entire india including the dravidian lands can be converted into arya varta(land of the aryans) and brahminical groups acould be its sole masters without even sharing it with aryan non black kshatriyas. Ofcourse MAN(black dravidians) came from africa, everybody knows it and the aryans came from central asia and india ofcourse is a part of asia. Rajputs married moslem kshatriyas by faith and even today rajputs of pakistan are proud landlords of course most are moslem by religion, like in the previous past most where non bramhinical buddhist by religion, Of course bramhinical rajputs trying to protect bramhin superiority for their masters were defeated. Dravidian parties eulogising periyar are the sole representatives of the black tamil race who are ruling dravidian states like tamil nadu,AP,KArunadu-karnataka("land of the black nation" as it translates in kannada). How can the user 82.123.139.101 brainwash us the readers, that it was british who created caste system.It was the dravidian parties(periyar) that rejected the bramhinical caste system be imposed on homogeneous black Tamils with their proud semitic past(of course semites intermarried with the black slaves and are from middle east).Bramhinism was the main cause of the destruction of kshatrriyas and on their lost ashes and ruins the black dravidians have cleverly manipulated fictitious claims and aided by greedy fictitious bramhins are calling themselves kshatriyas, as well as being OBC,BC, SC,ST being benifited by the quota largesse. IS THIS WHAT WHITE ARYAN KSHATRIYA ALL ABOUT THE BLOOD AND RACE OF THE VEDIC ARYANS OF PERSIA<KURDS<AFGHANS<ARYAVARTA.Can u ignore the dravidian parties representating 25crores dravidians and the mandate of the black dravidians reaffirming their dravidiannes against the northern white if dravidians of south india can claim themselves to be kshatriyas let the entire humanity including the blacks of africa be called kshatriyas and find mention in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.222.31 (talk) 18:08, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Kshatriya lineage
Users to this page, please provide citations/references to all the groups you have placed under Kshatriya lineage. I would not apply this rule to Khatri, since several citations have already been provided.

If references are not made in a timely manner, then I would request we remove the groups that do not provide any.

Thanks,

--KhatriNYC (talk) 22:13, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Lede
I think the Lede is too long in this article and there are not enough citations. Perhaps the 3rd paragraph beginning "The legend that the Kshatriyas..." could be put in a section titled "Legend"? Bigweeboy (talk) 21:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Very astute observation Big, I have created a History section to fix this problem. Thanks,--Kbob (talk) 16:14, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

REQUEST TO HAVE THE ARTICLE LOCKED
I would like to suggest we lock this article due to the face people are removing information from this page or adding information without providing any citations. this would inlude adding groups/castes considered to be Kshatriya. Lets clean this up in the next couple of days/weeks if people do not add citations. Thanks.

--KhatriNYC (talk) 16:43, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

In the coming week, I will start to remove groups/castes people have added that do not have any citations/references. Please add them if you would like to keep them posted. thanks

--KhatriNYC (talk) 15:39, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, as I stated before, I will be removing groups/clans that don't have references. This will begin tomorrow. Thanks.

--KhatriNYC (talk) 14:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

The article mentions the following: "The earliest Vedic literature listed the Kshatriya (holders of kṣatra, or authority) as second in rank, after the Brahmins (priests and teachers of law), before the Vaisya (merchant-traders, farmers and some artisan castes)[1], and the Sudra (labourers, some farming castes and other artisan castes)".

The reference [1] quoted to support the statement is given as:
 * 1) ^ http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=w9aZOmVeD0IC&pg=PA412&lpg=PA412&dq=ayogava+artisan&source=bl&ots=nCqRX4vQ1U&sig=VNTd275_5WVBCj8IYqan0gKnYhs&hl=en&ei=n7s-SrioCuSfjAfons0F&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5

However, the reference [1] talks about anuloma and pratiloma. It does not mention ranks as first rank or second rank. It deals with sutas or ayogava. Kindly delete the reference and provide another citation reference.

--= No &#124;&#124;&#124; Illusion = (talk) 08:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC)Mayasutra

Vanniyar
Two editors (Axxn & Rajkris) are busy rv, an anonymous editors listing the vanniyar here. Please stop, and follow the process. Ikon No-Blast  19:38, 5 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Vanniyar case has already been discussed. Please see archive. Thanks.Rajkris (talk) 20:30, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Citation needed marks plastered on verifiable citations provided
Some editor has plastered citation needed marks against citations provided in this article ???.

Intothefire (talk) 10:16, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Can you be more precise ? Thanks. Rajkris (talk) 15:55, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Nagvamshi
Too many Gotra as Noms. Please clean up. Besides multiple name of same community. Also can some one throw some light on their origin. Ikon No-Blast  19:38, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * See the archives. Axxn (talk) 02:07, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It does not address the problem. Ikon  No-Blast  18:29, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Throwing light on Gotras -- Gotras are a system of unbroken patrilineal lineage, as defined by Panini. However, DNA analysis has failed to attest it, and historians give absolutely no importance to it, except for deriving clues for scythic origin, as in the case of Jats. According to hindu faith, there are 8 principal gotras named after 7 ancient rishis & one Kashyap. However, in modern societies, we find numerous gotras in addition to these 8. There are reasons for it. Firstly, ppl., created more gotras to prevent inbreeding, when they get too many ppl of same gotra, in surrounding. Second, we have historical records, where Brahmins used to change the gotra of people in a religious ceremony. So, Gotra does not speak about anything. I just wonder why they are listed there. Ikon  No-Blast  18:29, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree gotras don't speak of anything.gotra system is does not have value.one more thing certain bunts and nairs claim kashyapa gotra(called bari or illum in tulu and malyalam) calling him the father of all nagas.Linguisticgeek (talk) 04:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Kayaspa origin is not proven. 115.113.97.137 (talk) 07:15, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Kasyapa is said to be the father of both Devas & Asuras, only mothers were different. This gotra is very common throughout India, and does not proove or disprove anything. Ikon  No-Blast  20:39, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

List of Referenced content from reliable sources deleted from this article
Intothefire (talk) 08:07, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Matrilineal Kshatriya
''' Please take not of the fact that the Khatri a very nice merchant caste is not Kshatriyas. Also there are some Muslim Rajputs in Pakistan, but Bhuttoo and Jinnah have no Rajput link. Foreign elements to create a confusion in the Kshatriyas are planting names of non-kshatriyas as Kshatriyas. these foreigners are naive.''' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.155 (talk) 23:25, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Is it true some of the claims are matrilineal. Can kshatriya be matrilineal. Had it been true at least one of Yadu, Puru, Ikshvaku would have been a woman. Ikon No-Blast  19:13, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Since, nobody has chosen to answer, let me elaborate on this. There are good number of ppl., in south India who are claiming to be of Kshatriya lineage. However, from the system of theirs, as I have learnt through articles here, they are actually, proud descendants of Namboothiris, who are not kshatriya, and practiced sambandham, with Nair ladies. Should they be mentioned on this page ???? Ikon  No-Blast  18:38, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * In Kerala, the Nambuthiri definition is like this -
 * Father Nambuthiri + Mother Kshatriya = Son Kshatriya
 * Father Kshatriya + Mother Kshatriya = Son Non-Kshatriya (Should do Hiranyagarbha before coronation to become Kshatriya).
 * According to Nambuthiris, Kshatriyas are recognized only if have Brahmin (i.e Nambuthiri. Other Brahmins like Iyers and GSBs are not recognized as Brahmin by Nambuthiris) fathers.
 * If sambandham is not practised with Nambuthiris, then the royal family will become extinct without any descendants (happens very frequently). Axxn (talk) 18:57, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Who gave this authority to Namboothiris? How can they define anything on their own?? and also, you are wrong, in saying,

Father Kshatriya + Mother Kshatriya = Son Non-Kshatriya, this is against Hindu Faith. Infact Namboothiris propositions would be highly frowned upon in North India. Do they follow hindu scriptures??? Ikon No-Blast  19:08, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Anyway it answers your question about matrilineal Kshatriya. Kshatriya status can't be passed patrilineally, as son of a Maharajah is not recognized as a Kshatriya. However this does not apply to the three royal families claiming Nambuthiri matrilineal descent: Devanarayanan of Ambalappuzha, Nampiyathiri of Edappally and Nampidi of Veganadu. Other than these three, the remaining 150+ royal families in Kerala used to engage either in sambandham or in hiranyagarbha to create descendants to the throne. Axxn (talk) 01:48, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * According to Manusmriti, the son of a Kshatriya mother with a Brahmin father is a Brahmin. But according to Arthashastra, he is a Kshatriya. The latter definition is followed in states like Kerala, West Bengal, Maharashtra.etc. Axxn (talk) 05:35, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Dude get ur facts rights travancore royal family does not intermarry with the the nambudiri's.they only marry with kshatriyas of the kolathiri royal family of north kerala.only certain nair clans intermarry with nambudiri's,secondly the matrilineal Bunts don't practice sambandanam at all they are traditionally endogamous like other nair clans.matrilineality is a way of succession.u are confusing matrilineality with matriarchy.hope u get a difference between the too.secondly if u want a mention of this practice in ancient india then read the mahabharata.Ulupi a nagavanshi kshatriya princess has a relation with arjuna,a kshatriya but not nagavanshi,their son brabruvahana is described as a nagavanshi kshatriya in the mahabharata.he does not claim the lineage of his father arjuna who if i am not mistaken was suryvanshi.Many historians even consider parshurama to be a nagavanshi his mother was a kshatriya married to a brahmin.intermarriage between brahmins and kshatriyas wasn't very uncommon in ancient india.there is system of identifying children born to brahmin-kshatriya couples as anuloma or viloma.if father a brahmin then he is anuloma and shld mostly likely take the occupation of his mother and if father a kshatriya then he is viloma and shld taken the occupation of his mother.there is even a story of romaharshana a brahmin born of a kshatriya father and brahmin mother,who is killed by balarama,krishna brother because of his ego.Linguisticgeek (talk) 04:39, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

and one more thing the strange practices of nambudiri have caused many historians to come out with the theory that nambudiri's might be kshatriyas who were elevated to brahmin status by parashurama.Their keen interest in rule and order is one more thing.this from the fact that they don't intermarry with any other brahmins(Tamil,Tulu and saraswat) calling them shudras and therefore polluting but show double standards when it comes to nairs,who are kshatriyas and shld be more polluting than other brahmins according to vedic law.Linguisticgeek (talk) 04:47, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

One more point if u read history than Indian Emperor Ashoka wasn't considered kshatriya because he had a brahmin mother.Bindusara's children with kshatriya women were considered legitimate rulers not Ashoka,and his brother vittashoka ,the sons of a brahmin lady.so mother's lineage is as important as father's,this might not be matrilineality but the fact is there is a quote in mahabharata which says only a lioness can give birth to a lion while talking abt kshatriyas.so kshatriya men having children with non kshatriya ladies were not considered kshatriyas enough.the caste system is very complex but anyways who cares be good human beings that would be enough to be a good hinduLinguisticgeek (talk) 05:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You are right in pointing out that the Travancore Royals don't inter marry with Nambuthiris. That is because there are no Nambuthiris in Thiruvananthapuram. They intermarry with the Koil Thampurans, the highest ranking clan there. But the children does not become Kshatriya. So they do the Hiranyagarbha yagna (performed by Tamil and Konkani Brahmins), so that the royal family gets the Samanta Kshatriya status. Travancore Maharajahs and Reagents followed this tradition till Rani Setu Parvathibai decided to ignore it and intermarry with the ordinary Kshatriyas. Also, the British viceroy banned the entire process in mid 19th century, as the treasury was empty. I think the last Hiranyagarbha in Travancore was conducted in 1870. Axxn (talk) 11:25, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I am amazed, Axxn, quotes Nambothiris as if he were quoting, rigveda or bhagwad gita. It is pretty clear to me that Sambandham was nowhere like marriage, nor was it an ancient practice. Also, it was a general practice among Nair community, maybe barring few like Bunts. It gave right to Namboodiris over Nair women, but they had no liability for her to provide for food and livlihood, and scar of this practice remains as guilt among Nair women, as one talks about it here. This should go into the article, what some ppl were doing to get kshatriya recognition from Brahmins. Ikon  No-Blast  18:46, 7 February 2010 (UTC)


 * What nonsense. Rich/Royal Nair women were arguably the most powerful people in old Kerala.
 * Nambuthiri anacharam rule number 26 : You must not sell women (receive money for girls given in marriage). --Jack.Able (talk) 16:54, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

And ikonoblast why exactly do u mean by nair women were scarred by sambandam, nair women were the most liberated of hindu women in india.god damn don't u realise they could chose their husbands or partners from both the nair and namboodiri community.This was very much like the ancient hindu practice of swayamvar which was the trademark of a kshatriya practice.now tell me how many so called kshatriyas in india can claim of continuing this practice.seriously don't u read some of those feminist literature that glorify the practice of swayamvar.nair women both had the right to divorce though frowned upon but still and they controlled property.Linguisticgeek (talk) 08:44, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

sorry ikonoblast but u r quoting indulekha a fictionl book,and secondly sambandanam means hypergamous unions,so certain nair women from certain clans could have multiple husbands both namboodiri and nair men.eg the cochin royal family,so certain nairs do have shared heritage with namboodiris.but the majority does not.there are 5000000 nairs and abt less than 2 lac namboodiris there wasn't a lot of blood mixing,the book indulekha was written by a nair himself who frowned upon this practice among certain nair clans.and more importantly namboodiri nair bunts and tulu brahmins all r genetically related and some have classified them as indo scythian,they trace their origins in Ahichatra in Uttar Pradesh which means the home of the serpent people.snake worship is even prevalent among both namboodiri and tulu brahmins,so thats the reason they do come under a gambit of nagavanshi even if they might not be kshatriya.and more importantly bunts are not part of the nair community they are a separate community though related.and more importantly i have quoted enough instanes to show matrilineal lineages prevalent in north india.If u read the topic Matrilineality then u wud realise most early socities were matrilineal there is a speculation that Indo - aryans also were,patrilineality by all accounts was a later practiced by all accounts of historians who study the evolution of civilization.Matilineality was preserved in the south like so many other ancient hindu practices eg most accurate vedic sanskrit chantings is done by south brahmins.purest forms of ayurveda and yoga is preserved in south india,if u read any book on hinduism then all wud say the South Indian form of Hinduism is the closest  to what was practised during the vedic period.north has a lot of islamic influence even on hindu traditons and last but not the least two of the greatest hindu philosophers in the world Adi Shankara and Madhvacharya belong to Namboodiri and Tuluva Brahmins community so that shld answer ur ? which u so ignorantly asked do the namboodiris follow hindu scriptures.and frankly please read some more history books in print not the google books one it's an honest suggestion. Linguisticgeek (talk) 05:29, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Ikonoblast is being hyprocrytical here. In Badrinath and Kedarnath, only Nambuthiris are allowed to do priestly functions (Since they are the only Brahmins in India who follows the true vedic rituals and requirements). They are assisted by Dimri Brahmins (who are allowed to assist as they claim partial Nambuthiri descent). Same custom is followed in Pashupathinath. At one side, people like Ikonoblast are agreeing to the superiority of Nambuthiris by giving them the sole right to conduct priestly functions in the temples and at the other hand he is questioning their authority!!!! Axxn (talk) 07:12, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Anand in Pashupatinath the Tuluva Brahmins are also allowed the current priests are tuluva brahmins from karnataka.and if iam not wrong the namboodiri brahmins of payyanur are also matrilineal like the nairs and bunts.Linguisticgeek (talk) 07:29, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Embraanthiris are considered more or less equivalent to Nambuthiri. Nambuthiris don't have untouchability with the Embraanthiris, as they do have with other foreign Brahmins like Iyers and GSBs. In Pashupatinath, the rights were transfered from Nambuthiris to Embraanthiris quite recently (18th cen.) and they are still known as Rawal. Axxn (talk) 07:52, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

agree there is even a legend among Tuluva Brahmins or embrans that namboodiri converted themselves from embrans to namboodiri by performing hiranyagarbha i read it on the shivalli brahmin website but i don't think the namboodiris would agree on that one considering their snobbish behaviour.and i think in trivandrum's padmanabha temple embrans serve as temple priests  once i had been there heard the priests blabbering about something in Tulu and then realised he is not a namboodiri Linguisticgeek (talk) 08:00, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Might be true. Since there are no namboothiris in TVM. So Embraanthiris did the functions of Namboothiris. Axxn (talk) 13:21, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The Sakas/Scythians were matrilineal, and they were mentioned in the Vedas as Kshatriyas. The Naga clans either interbred, or were originally a sub group of the sakas. In todays modern day they are primaraly located in Kerala and Tulu Nadu, specifically the Bunts/Nairs. Both have preserved the matrilineal customs. Genetic tests have shown the link between the Scythians and the Bunts, Nairs, and Jats. Also, do not confuse all Nairs to have Scythian origins, only the higher up clans. And some have suggested that these Nairs and the Namboothiris actually share the same origins, meaning that the Nambuthiris are quite possibly Nagas too.

Also, questioning the orthodoxness of the Namboothiris is ridiculous. Qoute Edgar thurston, "Castes and Tribes of South India" on the Nambuthiri brahmans, book 5 page 157: He is perhaps, as his measurements seem to prove, the truest Aryan in Southern India, and not only physically, but in his customs, habits, and ceremonies, which are so welded into him that forsake them he cannot if he would.--Jack.Able (talk) 16:26, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Jack Able, Please provide references for these claims:

Please provide which verses of the rig, sama, yajur and atharva mention this. Please read the Atharva veda verse 3.4.2 which mentions that a leader of a tribe was elected. Regarding rigvedic tribes, kindly read Encyclopaedia Britannica (walter rust) page 180 to 182.
 * 1) The Sakas/Scythians were matrilineal, and they were mentioned in the Vedas as Kshatriyas.


 * Sakas were matrilineal : Link to Google Books
 * Sakas/Scythians, mentioned in the Manusmriti in Chapter 10, verse 43 and 44 as degenerated Kshatriyas Manusmriti X/43-44.
 * Mayasutra: The google book link mentions "vestiges of a matrilineal system". However, its the Kshatriya claims that am asking for. Manusmrithi is not part of vedas. Manusmrithi is a dharmashastra. Kindly provide references from the Vedas about Sakas being Kshatriyas.


 * Jack.Able: Buy and read the book. You will understand why it is called "vestiges". Some clans became patrillineal, others kept the matrilineal system. Historians such as John Wilson claimed that the Anglo-Saxon race descended from certain Scythian tribes. If you look at English royalty, you can see "vestiges" of it, as in they practice Queens regnant. The current incumbent is her majesty Elizabeth the 2nd. But this is waaaay out of topic.
 * Mayasutra: Am not interested in matrilineal or patrilineal. Several communities and tribes of the austro-asiatic and tibeto-burman linguistic groups are matrilineal. Am asking for references from the Vedas about Sakas being Kshatriya as you have claimed.


 * Jack.Able: As for the Vedas vs Manusmriti, honestly I couldnt care less about the difference. They all belong to one same category in history : Mythology written in Ancient Sanskrit. See the full article on Indo-Scythians in Indian literature.--Jack.Able (talk) 18:28, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Mayasutra: It is better that you contribute about things you care from the academic pov. No point making an article flippant. And no, Manusmrithi is not mythology in ancient Sanskrit.

Please write which papers mention this ::or provide links to the same.
 * 2) Genetic tests have shown the link between the Scythians and the Bunts, Nairs, and Jats.


 * See journal by Raman Menon, K. "The Scythian Origin of the Nairs", Malabar Quarterly Review, Vol. I, No. 2, June 1902 and Ram Swarup Joon on the "History of Jats". Also see: Indo-Scythians
 * I asked for papers on genetic tests, not claims or speculations made by historians / historical works.


 * See below.--Jack.Able (talk) 18:26, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Kindly provide references for all of this.
 * 3) Also, do not confuse all Nairs to have Scythian origins, only the higher up clans. And some have suggested that these Nairs and the Namboothiris actually share the same origins, meaning that the Nambuthiris are quite possibly Nagas too.


 * See the previous reference. And if you are soooo interested in the Nair hierachy, please read it yourself on their page. As for the connection between Namboothiris and Nairs, I used the word "possibly".--Jack.Able (talk) 16:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Mayasutra: Wrong references. If you want to claim that Nairs are degraded scythian kshatriyas (based on Manusmrithi or whichever dharmashastra), kindly provide references to prove that Nairs as a community existed when the dharmashastras were written. And if you wish to claim that Nairs are of Nagavanshi descent, kindly provide which document exactly mentions that "Nair" community are Nagavanshis. Thanks. --= No &#124;&#124;&#124; Illusion = (talk) 17:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC)Mayasutra


 * What you mean by "wrong references"? The Scythian Origin of the Nairs is a journal article. It is further mentioned in Census of India, 1901, Volume 1‎ - Page 131. And Nagavanshi origin of Nairs and Bunts is also widely documented. Examples are Downfall of Hindu India (Page:278) By Chintaman Vinayak Vaidya, New light thrown on the history of India: the historical Naga kings of India By Narayan Gopal Tavakar, History of the Jats by Ram Swarup Joon and Uttar Pradesh ke Madhyakalin Jatvansh aur Rajya by Kishori Lal Fauzdar. Axxn (talk) 18:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Jack.Able claimed stuff based on "genetic tests" and provided historical works as references. Hence, my quote on "wrong references". Census of India accepted stuff based on claims and adoption of rituals, and is no authentication for claims made by communities in colonial India (see case of arya vysyas). And neither are "historical" books confirmation for self-serving caste claims (like those written by Joon and Fauzdar).


 * Jack.Able: Sorry for missing out on the DNA genetic tests "stuff". Here it is : Pillai Nair Menon DNA Project. If you ask for even more reference, it means you lack knowledge and do not deserve to be in this discussion.


 * It is concluded that the majority of Nairs are of R1a type M17 and M172s. This is just to show in this discussion the Nair heritage as Indo-Scythians, but i do not believe it can be included in the page as reference.


 * As for historical Nagavansh reference, please do not be lazy. References have already been provided and discussed. Also, I have never heard of a historian named "No Illusion". You have absolutely no authority to discard so many direct references by multiple books/journals as "wrong". If you wish to disprove the Nairs/Bunts as Nagas, go ahead and submit your research to a journal. Good luck with disproving mythology.--Jack.Able (talk) 07:38, 17 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Mayasutra: Which genetist has confirmed that R1a is indo-scythian? Guess you are aware that R1a occurs in several indian 'low-castes' and tribes like Chenchus, Saharias, Pallars, etc. And the Pillai Nair Menon DNA Project you quote has just 15 individuals registered on the project, of which 5 are R1a. Instead of providing such "references", it wud be great if you can provide proper references from scientific journals. Btw, am one of the first indians who got a full sequencing done and am a participant in a handful of such projects. Thanks.--= No &#124;&#124;&#124; Illusion = (talk) 12:41, 5 March 2010 (UTC)Mayasutra

I repeat with a small change:

1) If you want to claim that Nairs are degraded scythian kshatriyas (based on Manusmrithi or whichever dharmashastra), kindly provide references to prove that Nairs as a community existed when the dharmashastras were written.

2) If you wish to claim that Nairs are of Nagavanshi descent, kindly provide which ancient document specifically mentions that "Nair" community are Nagavanshis.

Thankyou. --= No &#124;&#124;&#124; Illusion = (talk) 18:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC)Mayasutra


 * This is agreed all over India. No need for a separate discussion for Brahmins in Kshatriya article. Axxn (talk) 19:41, 11 February 2010 (UTC)