Talk:Kurds/Archive 2

Kurds have every right to self determination
Racial purity, language, culture etc..All points that some of you are not crediting the Kurds have in fact determined and sustained them up until today! A totalitarian country like Turkey f.ex who supresses basic human rights and who desperately tries to kling on to a region and an entire population that has never wanted to be a part of it, is the true example of the turkish unwillingness to realise the TRUTH! It being that the Kurds are as much a homogenous people as any other people with their own modern state, their own language,culture and traditions! Turkey..once an "empire" hasn't yet come to terms that what sustains a modern state is its own citizens' willingness to be a part of it. The Ottoman Empire does not exist anymore..If countries like Syria, Iraq and Egypt have had the fortune of the drawing up of fictional lines on the the geo-political map..Why have not the Kurds had the same opertunity? With what right have these people been denied the right of autocracy? Maybe it is hard for Turks to realize the quest of the Kurds..Since they themselves have a country that is made up of and stolen from other peoples. Is it a lie to say that everything they have has been stolen from pre-existing cultures!? So why steep to the level of racial purity or homogenity issues, if not because of one's own unsecurities.. Kurds have survived for over 2000 years and will never be assimilated or wiped out!..Maybe that is what angers the Turks and their allies the most!

A lot of Kurds are Iranians
A lot of Kurds nowadays are originally Persians and the rest of the Kurdish population are mixed between Turks and Assyrians those are the "Kurmannji Kurds"..Those kurds who speak "Sorani" are mixed between Arabs and Iranians who moved from the Zagros Mountains for nearly 400 years ago..Although some "Sorani" Kurds are originally Medes.

Have you done your own resaerch? Where did you get this nonsense?

Wikiway
I am sory neither are you using talk, cometing out views is how we do things on wikipedia. You do not have the liberty to declare my edits as pov and do not care to, either explain or read my reactions. --Cool Cat My Talk 21:05, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * What makes you think that "cometing out views is how we do things on wikipedia."? Stereotek 21:37, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * All you do is waiste my time. I cant deal with you. You pushed my patience to its limits and beyond. --Cool Cat My Talk 08:50, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Usage of certain words
I do not agree of refering countries as if a defacto goverment exists, that is not right and is very confusing. I havent red the timeline entries at all, however since there are no sources goven I have commented them out. I reintroduced my comments and I want them to stay there untill we can find a good way to reword things. Of course I expect Stereotek to revert everything in no more than a day. --Cool Cat My Talk 09:09, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * raise issues here, not in comments in the article source. &mdash; Davenbelle 09:19, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * Actualy that would be something you dont read right? --Cool Cat My Talk 10:32, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Case 1

 * Flag of Kurdistan which is flown by Kurds in the Kurdish Autonomous Region of Iraq and by Kurds in the Kurdish  regions of  Turkey, be they separatist or not .]]
 * Flag of Kurdistan which is flown by Kurds in the Kurdish Autonomous Region of Iraq and by Kurdish  seperatists in  Turkey  and elsewhere .]]
 * It is absolute propoganda to talk about a uniform kurdish movement. The flag in question is not waved by all kurds. Only speeratists use this fiag. It represents a defacto nation, Kurdistan. People who dont desire such a nation do not wave the flag. One only wants to wave a defacto flag if he/she is a seperatist. --Cool Cat My Talk 10:05, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Case 2

 * ...Kurds have been campaigning (often through violence as well as political means) for the right to their own state, which they often refer to as Kurdistan, land of the Kurds or Kurdish homeland. However, despite their efforts and help of European countries, all the region's governments are opposed the concept, which would require them losing parts of their own territories to create a Kurdish homeland.
 * ... Some Kurds have been campaigning (often through violence as well as political means) for an independent state, which they often refer to as Kurdistan(land of the Kurds or Kurdish homeland). However, all the region's governments oppose the concept, which would require them losing parts of their own territories and would significantly destabilise the region.


 * Europeans do not want a independent Kurdistan as their foreign poicy I bleieve. Their support if any is unofficial/undercover if any.
 * Word cluttere fixed
 * Unstability implied here Iraq's neighbors discuss war, here The big gamble, and here Sensitive Turkey to host Iraq meeting). If you think countries are bluffing, think again. Turkey alone has interfered over 50 times with Northern Iraq.
 * There are hundereds of new sarticles that developed regarding Kurds in the past 3 years so its difficult to fond anything spesific. I cant find the link regarding the uniformal statement so I adjusted the article accorindingly.
 * Following changes are along the line. Samething repeated, necesary to clarify. Uncertainty is the MOST improtant aspect of this.
 * Could you find a source for the official statement by Syria, Iran, and Turkey that they would go to war if Kurdistan was created? silsor 23:46, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * Will try. --Cool Cat My Talk 23:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I am having dificulty finding spesific knowlege, I am posting anything I find related. When bombs explode on a daily basis in a region diplomacy is low piority in news. --Cool Cat My Talk 00:16, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Case 3

 * The status of Kurds in Iraq is considered to be the best between all Kurds . Under the former Iraqi Ba'athist...
 * The status of Kurds in Iraq is now clouded by uncertainty . Under the former Iraqi Ba'athist...
 * Both the old and new versions need a source. In the first one, who considers their status to be the best?  In the second one, who considers their status to be clouded by uncertainty? silsor 23:49, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, its uncertain. Its very likely Iraq will be draged into a civil war. Factualy speaking you have Turkey in Northern Iraq over 50 times when Saddam was in power. Turks protected Kurds from Saddam. Thats a fact, the Crosroads article talks about it. Ill elaborate in a sec. --Cool Cat My Talk 23:52, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I do not believe the majority Shia's will besatisfied with a kurdish prez. I personaly dont expect him o complete his term. He will either be assasinated or overthrown. Power exchange in the middle east has never been easy. --Cool Cat My Talk 23:57, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * CHeck history. Clouded by uncertainty was how it was before I edit the article. --Cool Cat My Talk 00:33, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Case 4
--Cool Cat My Talk 10:05, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * The American-sponsored idea of a Federal Republic, with a relatively high level of autonomy for the Kurds, currently appears to be the most popular. Steps towards greater autonomy were encouraged when the Iraqi  president that was elected was a Kurd (Dr.  Jalal Talabani ).
 * The American-sponsored idea of a Federal Republic, with a relatively high level of autonomy for the Kurds, currently appears to be popular among the Kurds and is strongy opposed by the surrounding nations as it will destabilize the already troubled region. Election of Dr. Jalal Talabani ,secretary general of the  Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, suggests a greater autonomy.
 * You are saying that the surrounding nations oppose this plan on the grounds that it will destabilize the region. Where did you learn this, and can we cite it in the article as a source? silsor 23:49, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * Well if there is a free kurdistan, surrounding kurds may want to join in. Lots of uprising. PKK has caused significant violence for 15 years. They were funded undercover and through donations. If such people control oil... I can only think of the worse. This is a logical conclusion. If you want sources I can provide them. Would you be satisifed with newspaper articles? Stuff related to Kurds in western media are not very insigtfull. Its too short for a complicated subject. Dr. Talabani threatened Turkey of war many times. --Cool Cat My Talk 00:02, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not disagreeing with you that a free Kurdistan would disrupt the region, but you are saying that the surrounding nations think it will, and that this is why they oppose a free Kurdistan. Where did you learn this, and can we cite it in the article as a source? silsor 00:20, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

Data
I understand your need of sources and I agree with it. Know that its difficult as there is too much garbage. Google is sometimes very annoying. --Cool Cat My Talk 00:53, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Insight:
 * www.pinr.com <--- ok
 * http://www.saag.org/ <--- ok
 * <--- good

TURKEY FEARS KURDISH STATE


 * Turkey suspects otherwise and fears a Kurdish state could undermine its own security and add fuel to violent Kurdish separatism within its own borders. Over 30,000 people died in separatist violence that eased after the capture of rebel Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) leader Abdullah Ocalan in 1999.


 * Kurds live in a swathe of territory covering parts of Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria. Successive Kurdish uprisings have ended in bloody failure.


 * Turkey's nationalists often hark back to the years when the Ottoman Empire controlled much of Iraq, including oil-producing areas around the northern city of Kirkuk.


 * Turkey has kept troops in northern Iraq over the last 10 years, pursuing PKK guerrillas who retreated there from southeast Turkey. Local Kurds now suspect Ankara of wanting to broaden its influence in the area.


 * Sokmenoglu's statement followed a warning by Iraqi Kurdish leader Massoud Barzani that Turkey would suffer a massive defeat if it invaded northern Iraq.


 * "Not only our soldiers, but also our women, our children and our old people would fight," Barzani was quoted as saying in the newspaper Die Zeit in Germany.


 * Sokmenoglu said Barzani had "exceeded his position by rising to threaten the Turkish Republic."


 * "The answer to such an inconsiderate and thoughtless tribal leader should come from two places: from parliament, and from the border, just as General Atilla Ates did," he said.


 * General Ates stood on Turkey's border with Syria in 1998 and threatened military action if Damascus did not withdraw support from Turkey's Kurdish rebels.


 * Turkey-Iran-Syria alliance? <--- Bingo, although a mailing list.
 * Aperantly 3 countries did not say "there will be war" instead "there may be war" (paraphrasing) --Cool Cat My Talk 01:08, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * http://seattletimes.nwsource.com

---

Why are you ppl guessing? Why not ask a kurd? We are indeed a movement, and we've been fighting terrorism since 570 AD. Now both Turkey, Iran, Syria and Irak are muslim countries, our main enemy are and has always been the muslims. I would say that 99% of the kurds want an independent kurdistan. And we are not "mixed" with other ppl, some are but most kurds are not, those who are mixed and not part of the kurdish movement are not considered "kurds", they consider them selfes as turks, arabs och iranians and have in those cases no say in Kurdistans future. Compare it with religion, once a Jew converts to christianity he cannot speek for the jewish community. Whatever he says beond the point of conversion is said from a christian point of view.

Case 5

 * Timeline is unacceptable as no source was cited. Since I am not allowed to edit the article. I know I shouldnt have commented it out. I apologise for my atempt to remove unverifiable data. --Cool Cat My Talk 10:39, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Timeline
Hmm, it occurs to me that the timeline sucks pretty badly. Should really be moved to History of the Kurds, Kurdistan Workers Party, and other related articles. I'm certain (at least with the PKK stuff that this information is duplicated. Anyone elses opinion? - FrancisTyers 17:22, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is it only timeline sucks? Wikipedia is a mess in terms of terror propaganda. Here,

is shown as a human rights issue
 * Kurds are shown as if they are dominated in Turkey which is a big lie.
 * Terrorist kurds are shown as heroes.
 * Part of a big picture drawn by British and allies, creation of Kurdistan to create another dependent country, which will follow rulings of invasive forces (as Jordan, Sauudi Arabaia does, or as Iraq did not and paid fines, Syria did not either, looking way to get out of US and British invasion)

4 to 6 million
I hate to say this but some people spend a lot of time to change facts and publish here what they want. I see some people who support Kurdish terror that killed thousands of people here. Apparently they are working hard on Wikipedia.

There are only about 7 to 10 million people in Turkey with Kurdish ethnicity. Look at this Wikipedia article: It says here about 10 million: [Human rights in Turkey] But this page says 20 million! Will someone correct this?

Here is a question? Turkey is a country with mixture of nations. So what would you call a child who is a product of Kurd and Arab, both Turkish citizens? What is a product of Kurd and Tatar?

If you are a supporter of separatist terrorists who love to increase number of Kurds in Turkey  [for some very known reasons] , you write it here 20 million!

In fact, because of terrorism and hatred developed against it, many Kurds would not feel comfortable to express that even there is no restriction on that. People that can be counted as Kurdish would be no more than 4-6 million because of listed reasons. And only 10-20% of them would support or otherwise not oppose terrorism.

I hope some responsible people will correct these inconsistencies.

Sources.. Hello wikliepedia???
Half of Turkey is Kurdish, so what is your problem...

What are sources for these information?
Feel free to say I do not care.


 * According to Ethnologue Data from Languages of the World, authored by P. A. Andrews, there are only 5.852.000 people who can be counted as Kurdish.

Can you give tell me your ethnicity and nationality? I am sure I will not be surprised.
 * You say 20,000,000! Oh well, very well.

Hard to beat a prejudice
Claiming any number about kudish people who have been departed from their homes is totally impossible, because most people living in the south-east region of Turkey leave their homes on their own will, in order to reach the better life standards of the western cities. Another point is, Turkey is made up of multi-cultural communities. But only seperatist movement among these communities comes from the Kurds. This fact alone shows that the problem between Turkey and Kurds do not come from Turkey, but from Kurds.

Timothy replies

As an outside observer it seems to me that if the Kurds want Autonomy or independence,than they should have these things ( whether, statistically they do want it, I don't know). No good can What's the point of hanging onto citzens who don't want to be hang on to, it's more Trouble than it's worth. It is disgusting that Turkey had three MP's arrested for expressing a political opinion, and Turkey's past actions towards the Kurds resemble cultural genocide ( i.e the banning of their language.)Turkey's refusal to allow expressions of support for the idea of an independent Kurdistan are a violation of the universal human right to freedom of speech.

WP:NOT
Wikipedia is NOT a soapbox. Baseless statistics have no place on wikipedia. --Cool Cat Talk 00:39, 10 September 2005 (UTC)


 * OK. We have the demographics cited. Suprise suprise numbers droped by um what millions? --Cool Cat Talk 03:41, 11 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Sure it was. Especially because you, instead of making an effort to find some sources, maliciously removed some of the figures, and then lowered the total figure, so that it looked like there is no Kurds living in this countries. -- Karl Meier 09:18, 11 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The what?? Yeah I added up the adjusted value. Addition is a given math talent to internet users. "Maliciously removed"?
 * I do not need to find sources for some garbage someone else posted. As far as I care they are making it up (as they were CIA reports numbers MUCH MUCH lower and theu are estimating, not actualy counting) --Cool Cat Talk 09:26, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Why didn't you instead of "fiding sources" Maliciously removing my comment tags? --Cool Cat Talk 09:26, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Your behavior to keep uncited garbage on a page and refusing to cite sources falls under pov pushing. --Cool Cat Talk 09:26, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Kurds are not living anywhere if not cited as far as wikipedia is concerned. --Cool Cat Talk 09:26, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Uncited nonsense: Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Russia, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan and other: 500,000 - 1,000,000


 * So far you haven't provided nothing but deletion of important information and incivil comments on to this article and it's talkpage. That you continue to insist on a demographics section that says that there is no Kurds living in these countries is clear PoV pushing. If you think that the current, figures are not accurate I suggest you find better ones, and add a source to them. Otherwise, please stop PoV pushing as per ArbCom ruling. -- Karl Meier 09:39, 11 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Stalking is incivil, being a dick all the time is far worse. If you are disputing the accuracy of a kurdish site and CIA factbook go off and find better sources. try http://www.pkk.org, I am sure there are more Kurds than Chineese. --Cool Cat Talk 09:41, 11 September 2005 (UTC)


 * You almost make me think that you are personally interested in a figure that is as low as possible? Sure it would be great with a citation for the figures we are discussing, and I added the citation needed template in connection with them. But leaving out the fact that there is a lot of Kurds living in these countries, and adjusting the total figure accordingly, is of course worse, and more inaccurate. Also, again, Wikipedias accuracy regarding these figures is obviously something that concerns you a lot, so why don't you try to help the situation, by finding some sources for the mentioned figures, instead of just making the situation worse by deleting these important figures? -- Karl Meier 09:56, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Thats unacceptable/unegotible. Cite sources or it will not exist in the article. Wikipedia is NOT a soapbox where you get to make up statistics. --Cool Cat Talk 10:27, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Again, if you think that the figures are inaccurate, then please find some sources (and references) that are more accurate. (and NOT a WIkipedia mirror please) To claim that there are no Kurds in these countries doesn't make any sense, and is pure PoV pushing. -- Karl Meier 10:51, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Coolcat. If you want to make yourself useful, you should find some references that support the figures that are currently there (or some adjusted figures from a descent source), and stop your crusade in order to make the figure as small as possible. Maybe you don't like Kurds, and maybe you would wish there was less of them, but if that is the case perhaps you should start your own website about it, instead. What we are doing here is to try to get the most accurate figure, and I don't care if the figure is 25 or 30 million or whatever. Your version that claim that there is ZERO kurds in the countries we are talking about doesn't make any sense. If your only interest is to lower the figure in order to nurse you favorite pet PoV, then you are not really helping the situation. I have provided a lot of references for the figures that we got here. What have you done apart from reverting a disrupting? -- Karl Meier 18:49, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * No statistics will tell that 0% of their population makes up kurds, that would require every minority be mentioned. If you cant cite it, no kurds live there as far as wikipedia is concerned. --Cool Cat Talk 18:54, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * No, there is not living zero kurds in these countries as far as Wikipedia is concerned. You are not helping anything here. Please stop your personal crusade/PoV pushing, as the ArbCom asked you to, and start working on making accurate articles. Again I ask you, what have YOU provided of valid references to this article? -- Karl Meier 19:06, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I dont quite care. If you can't cite it it doesnt exist. You claim I am pov pushing by removing uncited numbers. Frankly I have no idea what you are trying to prove here. --Cool Cat Talk 21:16, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I am trying to get the most accurate figures of the Kurdish population. You haven't helped me with that. You have just been revert-warring, and tried ever possible and impossible trick to make the figure as low as possible. Your claim that there are no Kurds living in these countries, as I already said, doesn't make any sense, and doesn't help my goal to get the most accurate figure. Actually your crusade to get the lowest figure possible is wasting quite a bit of my time. -- Karl Meier 21:39, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * The most acurate figure is the cited one. --Cool Cat Talk 21:41, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * No, of course it isn't. Do you really want to suggest that there is no Kurds living in these countries? I wasn't the editor that added these figures. Some other editor did that, and I suggest that we keep them until they get a reference and is possibly adjusted in some way. Maybe it could be done by you Coolcat, because I strongly assume that your only interest in these matters is to make Wikipedia as accurate as possible? I have provided references for a lot of the other figures that was there. Why don't you start doing your part, and add references for these countries, instead of just revert-warring to get the lowest figure possible? -- Karl Meier 21:48, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Hmm I think this templete applies. --Cool Cat Talk 03:43, 13 September 2005 (UTC)


 * That is not a response, Coolcat. That's just more of your usual trolling. How about making descent responses now that the ArbCom is most likely watching? Why don't you make yourself useful for a change? -- Karl Meier 05:34, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I had an off the record discussion with one of the arbitrators and he personaly thinks uncited statistics are frowned upon on wikipedia. Users are encouraged to remove them. Also on an IRC discussion no one has sugested keeping uncited statistics. If you cant cite it dont bother insisting. --Cool Cat Talk 00:05, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Its hard to understand turks when it comes to question of kurds in turkey and other neighbor contries.what happens in turkey and what turkish goverments look is clear for who wants to understand.today is nowember 21 2005 and some terrible events occured in souteast turkey(military employes bombs shops, kills citizens, and blames people they kill for protesting).I wonder how long turkey and some of the boneheaded racist turks are going to blame remaining world for revealing truth. 85.97.192.118 10:52, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Cite sources

 * Anyways I am inlined to completely remove "Kurdish people in the past and today" section on the long run since it isnt cited. I am buys with few other articles and my vandal detection bot. Could you guys help me out and cite these too meanwhile? --Cool Cat Talk 03:41, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

PoV tag?
A PoV tag was added a few moments ago. Could the user that added the tag please add some specific details about what PoV issues justify the addition of this tag? The current dispute is about some demographic facts, and not really anything about neutrality. I would like to see a list of concerns that justify the current PoV tag. -- Karl Meier 15:07, 11 September 2005 (UTC)


 * "Adding to the grievances of Turkey's Kurds is the economic underdevelopment of the southeast. The Ankara government has systematically withheld resources from the Kurdish region. As a result, there are two distinct Turkeys: the northern and western regions are highly developed and cosmopolitan, part of the "first world," while the south and east are truly of the "third world." "


 * More money flowed to soultheast than anywhere else for GAP. Many Dams are complete and already generated great deal of cash for the people. --Cool Cat Talk 21:49, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * BUT the PKK taxed all that money went ahead and bought weapons and used them against Turkish troops as well as GAP engineers. --Cool Cat Talk 21:52, 12 September 2005 (UTC)



Religion

 * Kurds are estimated to be about 95 percent Muslim, especially Sunni Muslim (75%) and belong to the Shafi and Hanafi Schools of Islam. There are also Shia Muslims (20%) who primarily live in the Kermanshah and Ilam provinces of Iran and Central Iraq ("Al-Fayliah" Kurds). Alevi Shia Muslims make up another 10% and are mainly found in Turkey.


 * The remaining 5% are Christians, Jews and Yezidis.

Anyone with sources, the statistics keep getting changed. But no one is providing a source. --Cool Cat Talk 23:58, 16 September 2005 (UTC)


 * About the religion of the Kurds..I am from the Middle East and every kurd and middle eastern knows that there are almost no Christian Kurds and Jewish Kurds what are these for nonsence?--Sargon 09:01, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I am the one that keeps on changing it, and i will keep on changing it until you stop! what do you know about kurds or kurdistan? i am a kurd i am from the middle east, and i know what my people are and what my people arnt. if you are a kurd i feel bad for you. kurds are 95 percent muslim, and you are not worth the sources!

Guerillas?
Why do you keep referring to PKK guerillas?

The PKK is considered a terrorist group by the EU and the US.

They are PKK terrorists.


 * That's your point of view (and that of 2 countries). Wikipedia has a neutral point of view policy. --Hottentot


 * How about partisan as a more neutral alternative? - FrancisTyers 10:15, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

About the picture
I think every Kurd would agree that actual Kurdistan is much smaller than what is depicted on the picture of this page. The picture is misleading. It creates a false impression by saying that the marked areas are "inhabited" by kurds. Not every place where a few kurds live is kurdish-inhabited area. By this kind of logic you could include Paris and London in Kurdistan, which doesn't seem to be agood idea. I don't know what the motivation is for creating such a misleading figure, but anyhow it certainly is not appropriate as a source of information for people who want to learn about Kurds. I think with little effort much better pictures can be found which realistically demonstrate the areas where significant kurdish population is present. One could be the "Proposed boundaries of Kurdistan" on the Kurdistan page, although even that is exaggerated as far as I know.


 * If you can find a map that (in your opinion) more accurately show our readers where the majority of the Kurdish population lives, you are very welcome to add it. However, for now, I think we should keep the map that is currently available here.-- Karl Meier 10:23, 30 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The lack of availability of a correct map is not a good reason for keeping an obviously incorrect one. Many areas depicted on this map have, at best, a very small minority of Kurdish population. Note for example the areas in northern Khorasan (near Mashhad), the vicinity of Ankara in turkey, Zahedan, Tehran, Tabas, the north Iranian provinces of Mazandaran and Guilan,and the city of Shiraz. Naming these "Kurdish area" is as wrong as calling Berlin "Turkish" because there is a turkish population living there. This map is clearly politically motivated and without any scholarly or logical basis, whatsoever. It does not belong here, or in any other serious publication for that matter. Shervink 11:01, 30 September 2005 (UTC)Shervink


 * The map is from the Perry-Castañeda Library (PCL) of the University of Texas at Austin. It's not a bad source, and your opinion that the map is inaccurate is, well, your opinion... If you can find a different public domain map from a respectable source, then we should of course take a look at it. -- Karl Meier 11:15, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

This is not a matter of "opinion". It is a fact. I don't know how such a thing is presented on the UT web, but it is totally nonsense to call those areas Kurdish. Much of it has well below 1% of Kurdish population. I Will repeat that by this logic: - Los Angeles is Iranian area. - Los angeles is also Spanish area. - Berlin is both Turkish and Russian area. - London is Pakistani area. and so forth. Not everything that is put on a university website is correct. Shervink 11:58, 30 September 2005 (UTC)Shervink


 * OK, then, I've changed the map and removed the text that called the areas "Kurdish". Now the only text that is available to the readers is: "Kurdish-inhabited areas of the Middle East and the Soviet Union in 1986." I hope these changes address you concerns. -- Karl Meier 12:14, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, this is better for sure, but still I will try to find something more accurate. The current one is (still) seriously problematic. Shervink 15:59, 30 September 2005 (UTC)Shervink

This is a pure propaganda page.
'''This is a pure propaganda page. It spreads an immense lot of flasehoods about Kurds. Almost every sentence is absolute nonsense from the point of view of a non-partisan. Either it should be edited severlely or removed entirely from wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a separatist newspaper. Please, to express your political ideology you can publish a newspaper or make a website, don't use wikipedia for that. Thank you!'''

Largest Stateless Ethnic Group
I think this claim in the article is incorrect based on the information provided. Their are a number of Oromo of Ethiopia who are in engaged, armed and otherwise, in creating an independent Oromia. The Oromo population is slightly above 29 million according to the The World Factbook. This would put them over the 25-27 million number of Kurds stated in the opening and Demographics sections of the article. This is only one example that I know of. I would think there are a few other stateless ethnic groups around and above the Oromo. I don't want to edit anything until I get some other people's comments, but it seems it would be better (and incontrovertibly true) to say the Kurdish people are "one of the largest stateless ethnic groups in the world."

Wikipedia is Spreading Pkk's Terrorist Propaganda
What's next calling Osama Bin Laden a freedom fighter?? I can't beleive Wikipedia editors let an organization such as pkk(or kongra-gel) which is clearly labeled as "terrorist organization" by US an EU to be described as freedom fighters who fight for their peoples' rights. All the information regarding the situation in Turkey is clearly written by pro-pkk militant and contents of the article can not be more far from the truth.Let me give you an example; In summer of 2005,as a result of pkk suicide bombing,many inncocent tourists(including british and irish ones)were killed. I'm asking the authors of the article on the kurdish issue in Turkey ; so you are telling me those innocent peole died(or had to die) because there was no other way? Are you telling me some group of people gain licence to kill innocent people just because they have a political cause? So all the isreali,american, british, irish, iraqi innocent civilians who had not done anything wrong (other than being a citizen of their nation-states) deserved to die becuase their governments policies were wrong? The year is 2005 and you are telling me ,there is no other way to spread your message other than bombing shopping malls, touristic places and terrorizing masses?


 * Funny you should mention Ireland. Think about that. - FrancisTyers 01:21, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Name me one war where the other side did not fight back..... you cant and do you know why? because like in ALL wars/conflicts people die and BOTH SIDES are to blame.

KURDS IN TUKEY.

In turkey you will get arrested if: 1)You speak a word of Kurdish 2)You identify yourself as a Kurd 3)You wear/use/show interest in the Kurdish colours (red,yellow,green)- If you go to Turkey you will see their traffic lights do not go red, yellow,green but go red and green. 4)You Posess a kurdish item e.g. music or literature 5)You support Kurds 6)You are apart of a Kurdish party not necessarily the PKK but it could be the PUK/KDP. I find it funny that people are so fast to hate on the PKK and relate all kurds to it but never mention parties like the PUK or KDP. Dont believe me? why dont you go to Turkey and try it out yourself...... If you are still alive or escape please let me know.

New Information Required
Hello to all contributors, I hope that one of you can help me in this small quest to find out more about the Kurdish languages. I am very interested in languages around the world and how they differ, person from person, region from region etc. Now then, I fully accept that the Kurds are a coherent nation of people stretching accross many countries and I also accept that they are indigenous to those regions. The section on the language states that Kurdish differs from Persian and other Iranian languages in a number of respects, ie.Arabian influence etc. I hope that you all realise that this is not ultimately a ground on which to call something a different language, or to state that its speakers form a seperate nation from the others. Now in Northern Iraq, there can be no question of Kurdish identity. In regions where Kurds compose the majority, the minorities mostly comprise Arabs (Iraq's principle population), and Turkomen, the name of whom is clear, people of Turkic descent. Since all three languages are unrelated, identity is undisputed. In Iran however, Kurds not only share a country with speakers of another Indo-European language, but one from the same branch; Kurdish and Farsi ARE related. Until now, I've spent a lot of time arguing about language issues outside of this region; mostly between Serbs and Croats in Europe. Now, for anyone who knows about Kurds in Iran, or if you are an Iranian Kurd, or plain Iranian, can you tell me: Do Kurds and Iranians live in the same towns having been traditionally settled? Are the languages connected as well as related? By this I mean, do Kurdish dialects on their own edge in Iran continue to form the Farsi language at some stage? Or did one of the two groups settle in their present day region after the other, after some centuries of having been apart and developing their culture independently? If so, then the language will tell the answer in that two seperate continua will exist, one with Kurdish and one with Farsi and there will be no intervening stages (like West Germanic and North Germanic; Germans and Danes share towns in Southern Denmark); if not, then the influences which affect Kurdish language will also have bearing on the Farsi spoken close by; either that, or NOT all Kurds will be included in the description. This will rule the description incorrect since it applies to a number of Kurds, be that a majority, but not ALL of them, and Kurdish culture can only be attributed to one Kurd as much as another! Remember, foreign influence is not a basis for seperate nationality to those to whom you are affiliated; if Kurds have long lived under Arabs but previously shared all of the properties of the Iranians, then having two names, Kurds and Aryans (for instance) would have been unfounded. If on the other hand, they started off the same and then the Iranians under Arabia started to assimilate Arabian culture and language etc. then this would have continued until all local Iranians fully accepted Arab culture and the link with neighbouring Iranians is lost because people can no longer be identified. To call oneself Kurdish knowing that he is an Aryan with Arabian influence is clumsy, neither here nor there. It would be like saying "I am not Iranian because I am in many ways influenced by Arabs with whom my people share a similar mentality; but I am not an Arab either because I am ethnicly affiliated to the Iranians!", so that would make Kurds merely Arabianized Iranians - people just like other Iranians except that the others had escaped the influence of Arabs. The fact that the Kurds will NOT be calling themsleves Arabs stands as a tribute to the strength of tradition, that although Arabs had once ruled over them, although Arabs are repsonsible for much of the Kurds' customs, Kurds are still characterized by the larger part of their cultural features, that what did NOT yield to Arabian, in other words, that what survived from the proto-culture (ie.the properties which they still share with Iranians/Afghans/Pakistanis etc). My question again, is the Kurdish language and culture closely related to Farsi? or are they seperate from having previously been "seperated"? Celtmist 1-11-05


 * Why not check out: Kurdish language :) - FrancisTyers 11:53, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I did actually read that site, unless I missed something then it doesn't give me the information which I was seeking. I am fully aware that the linguistic connection between groups of Kurds seperated by hundreds of kilometres will mean that coherence is lost. That only means that in the absence of affiliated neighbours, the culture develops independently. My question was, do the Kurdish continua join with the Persian language? In Iraq and Syria, it goes without saying that this won't happen, Kurdish is Indo-European and Arabic is Semitic; but Persian is Indo-European, and as I said in my original statement, is a member of the same family as Persian, suffice it to say that Kurds and Aryans are the same ethnic stock. So does anyone know if Persian and Kurdish join in the same way that Italian and French do? (of course, with several intervening stages) Celtmist 3-11-05

Khabat
These articles (The Revolutionary Khabat Organization Of The Iranian Kurdistan) on (Khabat) shifting Please.
 * Done. --Hottentot

I Thanks you..

Kurdish is a distinct langauge from the grammatical point of view
Being a native kurdish speaker, I can say that kurdish and arabic are completely different. Arabic has had its own influence on all Middle eastern languages. Due to its isolation, kurdish has "less" loan words from arabic, than Farsi and Turkish have. The main difference between Farsi and kurdish is in their grammar, although they have some common words, but a Farsi speaking person with full knowledge of kurdish vocabulary cannot speak kurdish ( or understand it for that matter) since the grammar is quite different.

These two (kurdish and Farsi) are very different in terms of their original words as well (not loanwords). In this regard, we cannot even compare them to French/Italian/Spanish which have similar words, with different pronunciation. Sometimes I encounter very archaic words which are common among English/German/Kurdish, the most interesting one is the word for "Earth" in kurdish which is "Herd/Erd", and it is quite similar to the German one "Erde" as well. The persian/Farsi word is "Zamin", obviously not related to the above words.

Thoughts
I cannot digest this many statements and establishing of facts yet no citations. Can someone please present verifiable facts and present them in a NPoV nature? "Widespread bleifs" "majority" and other generalisations need some citations among other things. This article is at a pathetic shape. -- Cool Cat Talk 00:41, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

What is problem with this article??!
Diyako 18:42, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I see
I think the main problem is that we have two groups of people editing this article. One side seems very pro-Kurdish, and the other side seems to be anti-Kurdish. It seems that each time this article is modified in some way, it is changed again. I can see where people are saying that evidence is needed, but I have seen in some cases where evidence was supplied but a user had edited the passage out. We got too many biased people modifiying this page, on both ends of the issue. I would try and contribute, but I fear that I may have a bias. MercZ 07:24, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Interesting. What are the views of the pro and anti-Kurdish factions though?  I mean Kurdish is an Iranian language and genetic tests seem to show at least some relationship to other Iranian peoples as well as the Kurds having some distinct traits and ties to Europeans as well as Jews.  Clearly the Kurds are a very mixed people as are most Middle Easterners.  Perhaps the best way to go about fixing this article is to link as many sources as possible and present the views with some clarity as to why certain conclusions are plausible.  Tombseye 06:25, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Regarding recent edits and the Kurds status as 'Iranian' people
I just wanted to make it clear that denoting the Kurds as an Iranian people does not mean that they are a subgroup of the Persians or the modern state of Iran at all. The name 'Iran' is ancient and is applicable to many different peoples and not just to the modern Iranians who have adopted the name for their country. The Kurdish language is without a doubt an Iranian language and may even be older than the mainstay of the Iranian family, Persian. The relationship I meant to denote was that it was similar in the same way that English and German are, distantly, as Germanic people but with established common roots. However, the English are a fusion of Germanic and Celtic (and possibly older groups and various other peoples), whereas the Germans show few Celtic traces. Similarly, the Kurds show links to the Caucasus that most Persians do not. In addition, I think thought the genetic section deserved a section since there is a lot of info. to weed through still and its compelling stuff. Also changing Iranian people to Iranic is not a bad idea as it better illustrates that there are various branches of the larger Iranian peoples. Lastly, it would be cool if people could discuss why they find certain terminology offensive or inaccurate (such as the term Iranian people) and also why some people find the Medes so important in terms of the background of the Kurds, while others prefer to emphasize the Kurds more varied background. The Kurds are obviously related to many different peoples, but do show closer ties to two main groups (the earliest inhabitants who probably came from the Caucasus and the Aryans) and lesser links to others (although some of the links to the Jews and Europeans is surpising and adds to the complexity). Further discussion could only help to make this article better. Might I also suggest more pictures of Kurds and their diversity including Kurds in Turkey, Iran, and Iraq? Tombseye 19:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi. I agree with you Tombseye.Diyako 20:38, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Kurdisch-DNA
These articles (Genetic insights into the background of the Kurds) on (Kurdish-DNA) shifting Please.

Hi

You mean redirect?Diyako 17:40, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks

Factual history of the Kurds & Cleanup
In regards to the origins of the Kurds as being Halaf or Hurrian, there is no evidence to support this, only speculation. Citing credible sources as opposed to biased Kurdish sites would help. Moreover, supplying English-language external links would also help in cleaning up the article (or noting that the external link is in another language). --3345345335534 00:42, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Shlama
I have cited source to what you have mentioned above.Diyako 19:33, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

External link pruning
This article seems to have suffered from linkspam. Someone should clean it up. If a link is removed, please note it on the talk page with a reason why it was removed External links - FrancisTyers 15:32, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Timeline
The article is looking good, but the timeline is unsourced and kind of needs a lot of work. If it is going to be included it needs:


 * To be sourced
 * To have agreed some guidelines for inclusion of events.

Example:

2002: PKK changes its name to 'KADEK', in an effort to remove the 'terrorist' connotations of the name PKK.

Where is it said that this was the point of removing the 'terrorist' connotations of the name?

- FrancisTyers 15:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Timeline of modern Kurdish history
1919: Shaikh Mahmoud Barzanji, proclaimed himself King of an independent Kurdish state and took over the city and area of Sulaimania.(see )

1920: Treaty of Sèvres determines the borders for the territory of Kurdistan.

1921: Boundaries of the modern Iraq overlaps the territory of Kurdistan, which had been determined by the Treaty of Sèvres. When a referendum was held in 1921 to approve the appointment of Faisal as King of Iraq, in Kirkuk the Kurdish majority there voted against him, whilein the Kurdish heartland city of Sulaimania, the referendum was totally boycotted.

1923: Boundaries of the modern Turkey determined by the Treaty of Lausanne overlaps the territory of Kurdistan, which had been determined by the Treaty of Sèvres.

1922 to 1958: The Iraqi Kurds live under the Iraqi Kingdom.

1925: The first Kurdish revolt in Turkey, supported by British powers from Iraq, by Sheikh Sayid, is overcome.

1925: The League of Nations decided to attach the former Ottoman Vilayet of Mosul to the State of Iraq, with two conditions. One was that the British Mandate should last another 25 years; the other was that "the desire of the Kurds that the administrators, magistrates and teachers in their country be drawn from their own ranks and adopt Kurdish as the official language in all their activities will be taken into account."

1930: Anglo-Iraq Treaty. Iraq is granted independence. the Kurds rebelled, in protest at the failure of both the British and the Iraqis to fulfill the League's recommendations of 1925.

1930: Tunceli demonstrations were stopped.

1937: Agri demonstrations were suppressed. (See Republic of Ararat)

1946: Although Iran had declared its neutrality during the Second World War, it was occupied by allied forces. The kurdish inhabited areas of Mukriyan in the West Azerbaijan province in north western iran were occupied by the soviet forces. with the support of which a Kurdish state was created in the city of Mahabad under the leadership of Qazi Muhammad and Mustafa Barzani. The republic of Mahabad, as it is often called, lasted less than a year, however; as with the end of the War, and the withdrawal of the occupying Soviet forces, the central government crushed the separatists and re-joined Kurdistan with Iran.

1958: Abdel Kareem Qasem becomes President of Iraq; Iraq's new constitution declares 2 major ethnic groups in Iraq: Arabs and Kurds. The President invites Mustafa Barzani from the Soviet Union to Iraq for discussions about Kurds.

1961: Failed negotiations between the government and Kurds ignites the September 11 revolt of Barzani. Fighting continues until 1970.

1970: The March 11 autonomy agreement reached by both sides (the Baath party is now in power).

1971: In September 1971, tens of thousands of Faily Kurds were deported to Iran. 

1973: In early 1973, the Iraqi army began expelling Kurds from villages in the Kirkuk area and from certain sectors of Iraq's borders with Turkey and Iran.

1974: Relations break up again about economic issues. Fighting erupts again. Governments bombs Kurdish towns such as Qela Dize where over 250 people die, half of which are children.

1975: The Algiers agreement declares an end to the Kurdish revolt and Iran discontinues its support of Iraqi Kurds. Kurdish uprising disbanded. Barzani flees to the United States.

1975 to 1980: The son of Mustafa, Masoud Barzani, encourages a new uprising against the government.

1979:
 * The Islamic Revolution in Iran gives the Kurds an opportunity to receive some autonomy. They failed.
 * The PKK (Kurdistan Workers Party) is created.

1980:
 * PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan flees to Syria and trains his armed supporters in several places including Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and possibly Iran.
 * The Iran-Iraq war affects Kurds in both countries. Support to either government by Kurds could cause repercussions for Kurds in the other country. Both governments send Kurds to the frontlines. More than 1 million die on both sides.

1984: PKK guerillas launch their first attacks on Turkish targets in Turkey and abroad.

1988: The genocidal Anfal-campaign is being carried out by the Iraqi government to "decrease" the Kurds. Some 4500 villages are completely destroyed, and 182,000 Kurds are relocated to unknown destinations, in this year alone.

1988: The Halabja-disaster on the 16th of March, with intensive aerial chemical bombing (by Saddam's regime), such as Nerve gas, VX and Mustard gas, kills more than 5000 Kurds and wounds an estimated 12,000.

1990's: The massive PKK uprising propels Turkey into a state of civil war. Attacking the KDP in Iraq in order to control another part of Kurdistan, Turkey repels PKK guerillas and pursues them into Iraq.

1991: A popular uprising by the Kurds, encouraged by George Bush Sr. ignites, after the Iraqi defeat of the Persian Gulf war. The uprising is initially successful, but government forces crack down; causing more than 2 million Kurds to flee to Turkey and Iran. Thousands die of starvation, cold and hunger.

1991: Turkey's 70-year ban on using the Kurdish language is lifted.

1992: After the set-up of the no-fly zones in the North and South to protect the civil Iraqi population, the Allied forces make a security zone in the north of Iraq, so that the refugees can return. After that, the Kurds seize their area, set up their own government, start their own elections and draw autonomous borders.

1992 to 2003: The Kurds enjoy self-rule, but heavy fighting erupts between the two main Kurdish factions. The KDP and the PUK almost commit 'political suicide' in fighting in 1994, 1996 and 1997. In 1999, the two parties agree to a cease-fire.

1994: Leyla Zana, the first Kurdish woman MP in Turkey's Parliamnet, is sentenced to 15 years in prison. She is also the first person to have spoken in Kurdish in Turkey's Parliament.

1995: Leyla Zana is awarded the Sakharov Prize by the European Parliament, while still in jail.

1998: PKK leader flees from Syria to Russia after threats from Turkey against Syria.

1999: After spending months in Russia, Italy, and Kenya, Abdullah Öcalan is arrested by Turkish special forces in the Greek embassy in Nairobi, Kenya and is brought to Turkey for trial.

2002: PKK changes its name to 'KADEK', in an effort to remove the 'terrorist' connotations of the name PKK.

2003:
 * The 2003 Invasion of Iraq by the United States removes the Baath-regime from power. Kurds celebrate.
 * March 12: The European Court of Human Rights rules that the Turkish trial of Abdullah Öcalan, leader of the terrorist organisation PKK, was not fair.
 * January 4: Invasion of Iraq commences.
 * February 25: Both major parties of Kurdistan, an autonomous region in Northern Iraq, vow to fight Turkish troops if they enter Kurdistan to capture Mosul, or if they interfere in Kurdish self-rule. Between them, the two parties can mobilize up to 80,000 guerillas - most likely no match for the modern Turkish army; but complicate relations between U.S. allies on the Northern front, expected in the U.S. plan to invade Iraq.
 * March 21: The arrest of alleged Ansar al-Islam leader Mullah Krekar is ordered by Økokrim, a Norwegian law enforcement agency; to ensure he does not leave Norway while accusations that he had threatened terrorist attacks are investigated.
 * April 6: In a 'friendly fire' incident, U.S. warplanes struck a convoy of allied Kurdish fighters and U.S. Special Forces, during a battle in northern Iraq. At least 18 people were killed and more than 45 wounded; including senior Kurdish commanders.
 * April 10: U.S. Green Berets and Kurdish fighters enter the city of Kirkuk in Iraq, with little resistance. Turkey and U.S., in separate statements, say they will not allow the Kurds to occupy the city. ,
 * June 12: In Dokan, Kurdistan Democratic Party and Patriotic Union of Kurdistan leaders set up a six-member committee to map out a plan for unification.

2004: In the city of Qamishli, Syria, violence broke out between Arab supporters and Kurds at a soccer match. As many as 40 Kurds died, causing the Kurdish population in Syria to rise up and riot in the days of the aftermath. Thousands were arrested; and some were taken to prisons.

2004: Under pressure from European Union, Turkey frees Leyla Zana. She is still awaiting a new trial.

2004: KADEK changes its name to KONGRA-GEL.

2005:
 * Iraqi transitional assembly and Kurdistan national assembly elections held. Jalal Talabani, secretary-general of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, is elected as President of Iraq. Kurds receive more than a quarter of the votes.
 * Declaration by Abdullah Öcalan of Democratic Confederalism.
 * KONGRA-GEL changes its name to the historic PKK.

2005: Massoud Barzani is elected by the Kurdish Parliament in Arbil (Hewlêr) as the President of the Iraqi Kurdistan region. (see )
 * See also: History of the Kurds
 * See also: History of the Kurdistan Workers Party