Talk:Kuvasz

redraft
Not sure about the picture request. This was brought up previously and a different wikipedian said it wasn't needed, however a picture of a dog standing and at a better resolution might be helpful. Sorry I forgot what breed we're talking about, give me a minute... oh ok. so they are um... very Loyal and ideal if you're looking for a playful dog or a dog that can be averagely easy to train. They have beautiful fur... JUST KIDDING!!! I made that up. [User:hannaholiver&Chriskennedy] STOP USING WIKIPEDIA ANYONE CAN EDIT THIS AND GIVE YOU FAKE INFO. and guess what? you'll get an F on your report. ;) have a good day ♥♥(momma'sangry)

P.S. I know you'll read the rest of the document =_= ∞

Pictures
I have removed the pictures that don't represent the breed at all, I actually think they were great pyrenees. Kuvasz has a very special head and always have wavy hair. Wikipedia is a reference for most and those pictures were misleading. There are many great pictures of typical kuvasz from all around the world in the following page, but I am not sure if it's ok to use them: http://kuvaszklips.blogspot.no The breed standard: http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/054g01-en.doc PLEASE watch some pictures of real kuvasz before you say it's vandalism to delete these weird pictures!!!Kuvaszf (talk) 15:15, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for coming to this page to discuss this, . Unfortunately the images on the sites you indicate would not be suitable to use as they will be copyrighted. Do you have Kuvasz yourself that you could perhaps take photographs of and upload? The pictures that are used at the moment are indicated as being Kuvasz (and one looks as if it was taken at a show) so should be left in place until consensus is achieved to remove (or keep) them.  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  15:33, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh yes they are. Those pictures are indeed all Kuvasz, I know the breed and what you do is pure vandalism. I have been working with this breed in Hungary. Hafspajen (talk) 15:42, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Why don't you ask a kuvasz club like Kuvasz Fanciers of America or the hungarian MEOE or MKFE (the ones FCI recognizes) if this dog represents the breed? This dog is not typical at all, it has wrong coat, wrong position and size of the ears, wrong form of the eyes, strange head for a kuvasz etc. In the following link you can watch a video of the World Dog Show that took place in Budapest last year, it will show lots of good dogs, including the winner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWSkbWPxDw You can also see pictures of the winner in this link: http://www.kutyuska.sokoldal.hu/naszaly The best kuvasz of the world chosen in Hungary, it says a lot! You don't have to be a dog judge to notice that dozens of dogs shown in the first link I posted here in my previous comment look like the winner and the dog on wikipedia does not look like the world winner at all. I do have kuvasz myself but it did not feel right to delete these pictures to post my own, although my dogs are typical. But if I ask the breeder of the world winner kuvasz if I can use his pictures (and maybe one more good hungarian breeder), can I delete the pictures of the strange kuvasz then? Kuvaszf (talk) 15:14, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi Kuvaszf, the pictures would have to be copyright free - usually this means not taken by a professional photographer. Sometimes it is difficult when there are differing types within a breed as people's preferences/interpretation of breed standards can vary - I personally don't feel the pictures used in the articles of my own main breeds are typical illustrations but such is life! By the way, it's best not to mark your post as a 'minor edit' as it then doesn't send a notification out to let others know you have posted a comment; however, the small subsequent alteration you made would count as a minor edit - does that make sense?   SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  16:04, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * De ha a Kutyuskát nem lehet a Kuvasz szócikkbe belerakni mivel a kép nemszabad akkor sajnos nincs mit csinálni. Hafspajen (talk) 16:34, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply and advice, SagaciousPhil. You are always polite and helpful with new users. Of course I should have taken my time to read before making changes. These pictures have always hurt my eyes so when I finally decided to join Wikipedia I was too eager to delete them. I did not even know there were editors, so when I saw my first change was reverted I just changed again, thought it was a normal user, maybe the owner of the dog, did not know we could discuss about the changes. I delayed to see I had got a message. When I finally saw your message I did not know at all how to answer it. Then I found out about this page and explained myself and even so I got warnings instead of answers. I actually wanted to quit Wikipedia and never make a donation again. And now I get a message in hungarian, should I use Google Translator and get a translation that might be more misleading than these kuvasz pictures? About the dog pages, yes, that's life, but we can always try to make life better ;) There was an american show type before but it's a consensus now, everyone wants the hungarian type, the kuvasz of the FCI standard. We can't go wrong using pictures from the best hungarian breeders, the ones breeding the typical original kuvasz, including the World Winner. Not my pictures, not pictures from my favourite american breeder. I am sure I can get pictures from these hungarian breeders taken by themselves (not copyrighted). I will ask them and come back to you. Kuvaszf (talk) 17:35, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * So, you can't speak Hungarian? Judging what you explained above, this would be a thypical case of:
 * Crystal Clear app error.png  Don't edit where you have a conflict of interest

Hafspajen (talk) 18:01, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

??? If I was a breeder and was uploading my own pictures, I could agree. But I'm not a breeder, I'm not uploading pictures of my own dogs, I'm doing this for the kuvasz, trying to get pictures of the typical hungarian kuvasz, including of the World Winner 2013, which everyone agree is a typical kuvasz, just ask the kuvasz clubs. What am I getting with this? Nothing at all! Kuvaszf (talk) 18:31, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is your oppinion. Hafspajen (talk) 19:08, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

- Be polite, and welcoming to new users - Assume good faith Kuvaszf (talk) 19:18, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * You were not exactly making a god start on this article, that would indicate an overly good faith in your actions. Do I have to remind you that you come within an ace of being indefinitly blocked from editing because of your actions on this article! You recived the final warning. Not a good start. You indeed caused a lot of irritation to several editors, incuding myselt. Generally I AM polite with new users, I really am. But after all your actions please do not expect me to be welcoming and my good faith is somewhat shaken. I think that you should start considering all this before you jump att me like you did, craving good fait and welcoming attitudes. And your username Kuvaszf indicates biase, and I only have your word for that you are not a breeder or don't have any other conflicting or non neutral issue here.
 * Wikipedia is written from a neutral point of view: We strive for articles that document and explain the major points of view, giving due weight with respect to their prominence in an impartial tone. We avoid advocacy and we characterize information and issues rather than debate them. In some areas there may be just one well-recognized point of view; in others, we describe multiple points of view, presenting each accurately and in context rather than as "the truth" or "the best view". All articles must strive for verifiable accuracy, citing reliable, authoritative sources, especially when the topic is controversial or a living person. Editors' personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions do not belong. Hafspajen (talk) 19:34, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

To know or not know how to edit Wikipedia has nothing to do with good or bad faith. Since my first post here I am giving links and all kinds of sources to prove what a typical kuvasz is. I did not upload my pictures, I did not upload pictures with copyright. We can't say "kuvasz has wavy hair" and then have pictures of kuvasz with straight hair. It's much better for the breed and for Wikipedia to have pictures of typical dogs. I have posted at least 4 links and 3 names of clubs, I'm not simply giving my opinion. Kuvaszf (talk) 20:03, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * To know or not know how to edit Wikipedia - yes. But you simply ignored three warnings, is that something you remember? Hafspajen (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2014 (UTC)


 * See that you will not apologize for anything you did, so let’s talk about the coat. About the wavy coat, you say Kuvasz has. Kuvasz do not have an overly wavy coat. This picture from the AKC is presenting a dog that is not much different from thee coats of the pics in the article. Hre more pictures from AKC. https://www.akc.org/breeds/kuvasz/index.cfm https://www.akc.org/breeds/kuvasz/photos.cfm
 * We go then to the AKC description of the coat: The coat ranges from quite wavy to straight.. You can read about it here, http://www.akc.org/breeds/kuvasz/breed_standard.cfm and  Sagaciousphil, I think that those pictures are quite in order. Hafspajen (talk) 22:46, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Can't you move on and talk only about kuvasz? I already explained it. I did not even see the first warning until the second change. Then I understood that as long as I explained the changes I could make them. So I edited the page again and wrote a text explaining why. When I finished the text saying why I deleted the pictures, they were back, so I deleted – I thought they were back because nobody knew the reason yet. I was not writing on this page and checking my talk page at the same time so I did not even see the second warning. And when you sent your warning I had already explained myself so I actually don't agree with that one, it would be easier to reply here. Anyway, of course I must admit it was very stupid of me not to read more about editing, I thought it was just to change, then with the first warning I thought it was just to change and explain... Did not know I had to discuss and agree with some ones about it in advance. So, what does it say about my faith? Nothing. But let's say I am lying now, I'm an evil kuvasz breeder - probably the one who bred the world winner 2013 since I want to put his pictures. What would I achieve with this “evil plan” of deleting the pictures many times until I’m banned (and not even uploading my own pictures)? It does not sound like a good plan, does it? So I insist it does not say anything about my faith.

I am sure that although I was very silly not reading about editing (for what I apologize to the ones that were not rude and did not doubt my faith), after finding this page I gave valid arguments and sources. And I showed I am willing to use my time talking to Hungarian breeders to get good pictures for Wikipedia - although there are many good breeders in the USA, Sweden, Argentina, Netherlands etc. I just thought there would be no discussion that to use pictures from Hungarian breeders of a Hungarian breed, where the best breeders worldwide are importing dogs from, was a good idea. There is actually no discussion among the breeders worldwide that the world winner 2013 is a good and typical kuvasz. In Hungary and most countries they follow the FCI standard (or rather FCI follows the hungarian standard) and you can ask the club Kuvasz Fanciers of America, they are not breeding for straight coats in the USA as well, it's about that old american show type I mentioned in a previous comment. They still groom the dogs a lot in the USA before the shows, but that's all. The original standard says that any coat other than wavy (like straight or curly) is an ELIMINATING FAULT. CKC standard also says the coat must be wavy. If we can try to get pictures of the best kuvasz in the world to represent the breed, why not? Why use one with a great pyrenees head (when the FCI standard says that "the Kuvasz can mainly be distinguished from other breeds by his head shape") and without typical coat (eliminating fault)? Just put the picture of his head besides the world winner head, the differences are so clear! If Wikipedia was using these AKC pictures I wouldn't be here, most are groomed, they are not as good as the best (two were quite good actually), but they are not screaming "delete me please". Kuvaszf (talk) 23:46, 6 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I think there have been some problems with the Wikipedia servers/caching (or whatever the correct term is) lately and this may have contributed to the timing errors and then been compounded by 's inexperience of the system. (I don't mean that in a bad way, Kazaszf, as we all had to learn and I'm still learning Wikipedia ways too). It is not like to be unwelcoming to new editors - usually quite the opposite - and he has a good understanding of dogs and does great work with images in articles.
 * What I suggest is that Kuvaszf uploads some images that s(he) thinks are appropriate and includes or links them here on the talk page so discussion can take place. As I said before, many breeds have vast differences in 'type' - look at the massive variation between working gundogs and show gundogs, they are sometimes like different breeds (I won't mention Bulldogs, Hafspajen!). It's not Wikipedia's task to decide which is the right or wrong type but it may be necessary to include the two different 'types' with an explanation? But let's wait until we see other images and then discuss it?  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  09:57, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Sure. But I don't see how we are supose to go against ACK standards and CKC standards. CKC sais: Some coats have long, loose waves, some have smaller, tighter waves. We go then to the AKC description of the coat: The coat ranges from quite wavy to straight. Wikipedia is not a "forum". Wikipedia is not the chat page of  any interest group.  We are not here to change standards. Talk pages are not here for  Lobbying, and should  not be used as a forum for arguing agains ACK and CKC standards. If this is the ACK standard than that's it, and your idea about short curly coat is  only an opinion, as I said before. See Neutral point of view. We can include some short wavy coated dog pictures but we can not remove all of them and replace them with others, since the AKC description of the coat is The coat ranges from quite wavy to straight. We are here to keep to the standard not change the standard, like many editors in too many dog articles seems to think this, from time to time. Hafspajen (talk) 10:31, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Who wants to go against CKC? Who wants curly coats? You are changing my words. CKC is right! Coat is always wavy, some more than others - it depends on each dog and even more on the weather (waves are tighter in cold weather). But ALWAYS wavy. Not curly and not straight. Curly and wavy is not the same, curly like a poodle is an eliminating fault (but I never saw a kuvasz like that)! I insist there is no "type" of kuvasz with straight hair. Why don't you take your time and ask the clubs if there is a straight hair type since you absolutely don't want to believe in what I say? I gave 3 names of clubs already. There might be a few that have straight hair and the judges don't notice because of the grooming (although you usually can notice because of the texture), but there is not a "type" like the maremma has one for show and one for work, like the dobermann has one in Europe and one in the USA, like the great dane has one in Europe and one in the USA, like the golden retriever has one in England and one in the USA, like the german shepherd has one for work and another for show etc. If you ask the breeder of this strange dog if it's from another type of kuvasz than the world winner, I am sure he will be very offended!! There is only one type of kuvasz, even the ones for working in farms are the same! It's not because one standard tolerates one thing (which is an eliminating fault in the country of origin and almost everywhere) that this thing should be there representing the breed! And the coat is only one thing, don't know why you decided to ignore the main thing, the head. Again: "the Kuvasz can mainly be distinguished from other breeds by his head shape". And then you have a dog with a great pyrenees head? As I said if Wikipedia was using an over groomed AKC dog that seem to have straight hair but has an ok head, I wouldn't be here trying to change it.

SagaciousPhil, of course I was completely inexperienced, don't worry. And I still am, but slowly improving thanks to your help and pacience. I sent the links to many pictures, including to the ones I was planning to upload (after asking the breeder if I could and if he took the pictures himself). I am not a friend of this breeder so I don't feel like asking him for pictures to use on Wikipedia and then maybe not be allowed by the editors to use them - even if his dog is the World Winner 2013 and even if there is no type of kuvasz with straight hair some here prefer to use a great pyrenees looking dog to represent the kuvasz. And it's very sad that he cannot admit someone knows more than him about one breed, so he cannot believe in what I say (must be a lobby!) and cannot ask the club kuvasz fanciers of america because of course the club probably does not know as much as him. He also changes my words, ignore parts of what I write... I feel I am hitting my head against the wall. Kuvaszf (talk) 17:24, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

I went to the website of the breeder of the weird dog, they have imported a female from Hungary with wavy hair, correct eyes, correct stop and ears... http://www.kuvaszprince.com.br/caes/detalhes/dajka/28 They also have a picture of two really nice russian kuvasz, I think they have imported one of them: http://www.kuvaszprince.com.br/noticias/ler/a_criao_russa_shermemory_chega_ao_brasil/2 They are clearly NOT trying to breed a different type than the hungarian, quite the opposite, they seem to be trying to get there importing typical dogs. Still checking their website, in the following page (http://www.kuvaszprince.com.br/historia_raca/kuvasz_e_ovelhas) they say that the hungarian dog they imported "came to bring the true kuvasz" and that in 2011 their kennel finally managed to reach the real physical standard (the weird pictures were uploaded in 2009 if I remember well), so they actually admit that dog was not typical at all. They also wrote that they are importing dogs to fix what needed. I believe it's now clear that even the breeder of the strange kuvasz knows it's not a typical kuvasz. It's clear that they were all the time trying to breed typical hungarian kuvasz (and not a type), so I don't know why you are still arguing instead of allow me to get pictures of the best kuvasz of the world to Wikipedia. You are protecing no one, not even the breeder of this dog would support you that there are different types of kuvasz and that his dog follows the standard. Other breeders, clubs, AKC, CKC, FCI, everyone would be in favour of changing these pictures. If the owner of this dog gets offended because he likes his dog even knowing it does not represent the breed, we can just ask him to send better pictures to the gallery, since he does have many better ones on his website. Kuvaszf (talk) 19:26, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I have read through all of this thread again and I'll try to list comments as bullet points - I'm not meaning to be abrupt but just hoping it makes for easier reading:
 * The pictures were uploaded at the beginning of 2009 and although length of time does not necessarily make them right, no one has questioned them in all that time as far as I can see and the page does seem to have between 300-400 views a day
 * Before the discussion can move on I think needs to try to upload some suitable copyright free images to Commons or Wikipedia and link to them here then we can attempt to reach consensus as to which images are most suitable to use - perhaps when  sees alternative images, he may even like them! By the way, ideally, an image of a dog standing would be better for the info box picture but not with people or show paraphernalia - i.e. winning board, trophy etc. included;
 * If consensus still can't be reached, I think WP:DRN may then have to be tried?
 * I think I'm correct in saying the Wikipedia way is for the status quo to remain until this matter can be resolved. I am sorry as you must be finding this all a bit daunting, Kuvaszf, but I can also understand Hafspajen's frustration as images in dog breed articles are so often a bone of contention. If you are unsure of anything and I can help at all, please feel free to ask. As a side note, it would be great if the text of the article could be worked on and improved.  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  11:26, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, dogs (editors) suddenly popping up and trying to alter the content according to their own (sometimes quite erroneous) preferences fighting over the bone, is a relatively usual situation in dog articles. Also trying to get in their own picture of their pets is a huge fighting area. It is rather annoying that editors go editing like this instead of taking responsibility of reading the welcome templates and just improving the article just a little bit at a time. All edits must have a Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Editors who are overly persistent can be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:90.195.176.24 blocked temporarely or banned from editing a certain subject if they do not respect this policy, if this is a case of Wikipedia:Ownership of articles, or blocked indefinitely.


 * Anyway, I asked an expert about those pictures and he said that the arguments above are not convincing. The maremma is smaller and the dogs in the picture do not have the coat of the maremma, which is tinted yellow, off-white –ish. He also pointed out that one of the pictures was taken on a dog-show, so it is no need to launch a debate doubting about the dog being a real kuvasz. He also pointed out that dogs groomed for the exhibion might look more fluffy. Hafspajen (talk) 19:23, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Maremma???????????? Who is talking about maremma???????????????? I said he looks like a great pyrenees! Is it so hard to read what I write? I say wavy and you talk about curly, I say great pyrenees and you talk about maremma... You ignore 98% of what I write and distort the other 2%!!!!!

Sagaciousphil, I already posted a link with pictures of the world winner 2013 and I am almost sure I can get these pictures or similar ones taken by the breeder himself. Everyone can see the pictures in the link I pasted. I am not going to ask them for the breeder if not to use them.

A kuvasz can be distinguished from the other white livestock guardians (polish tatra, cuvac, great pyrenees, maremma etc.) mainly by his coat and head. But this dog has not a typical head (wrong form of the eyes, wrong position of the ears etc) and not a typical coat, even its breeder knows that. "The pictures were uploaded at the beginning of 2009", right. And the breeder of this dog wrote on their website that they only managed to have typical dogs in 2011. Isn't it enough to change these pictures? What else do you want than the breeder himself saying his dog is not typical?? Kuvaszf (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * You are not listening. Kuvasz doesn't always have wavy hair. As per AKC and CKC. Two people are telling you this, and this is consensus. And an expert also has been asked about it who said the pictures are OK. You are alone by telling what you do tell, that those dogs are NOT kuvasz and don't look like kuvasz. You are close to, if not already in the category Advocacy AND  Disruptive editing. Stop now editing this page and if you can get some pictures we can put some of them into the article, but ONLY If they are free and if they are better than the ones we already have. And not all pictures will be replaced, because of the AKC and CKC standard. But until this  you stop arguing here and now. Hafspajen (talk) 10:05, 9 January 2014 (UTC).

CKC does NOT allow straight hair. And it's only you telling this. "General Appearance - The Kuvasz is a large working dog with a pure white, medium length, wavy coat"."On the adult dog, the coat must not be tightly curled nor should it lie completely flat, but the degree of waviness will vary". Always wavy in different degrees, never flat/straight! How can it be more clear? And what about the head? What about the breeder of this dog himself saying his dog is not typical? Kuvaszf (talk) 17:11, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Coat and Colour at CKC KUVASZ STANDARD
The double coat is formed by a coarse outer guard coat and a thick, woolly undercoat. The texture of the guard coat is rough so that the coat readily sheds dirt and shows no tendency to mat. The length of the hair follows a definite pattern: head, ears, front of forelegs, and feet are covered with short, straight, dense hair 3/8 - 3/4 inches (1-2 cm) in length. The guard coat on the body and thighs is medium length 1-1/2 - 4-3/4 inches (4-12 cm). '''Some coats have long, loose waves, some have smaller, tighter waves. Both are correct, as is anything in between. On the adult dog, the coat must not be tightly curled nor should it lie completely flat, but the degree of waviness will vary considerably from one specimen to another.''' There is a ruff and mane of longer hair about the neck and chest, more prominent on the males, and feathering of 2-3-1/4 inches (5-8 cm) on the back of the legs. The tail is thickly covered in long wavy hair 4-6 inches (10-15 cm) in length. Puppies may have either straight or curly coats but should lose these characteristics with their first adult coat. The coat is a lustrous, pure white, although ivory is permissible, but not preferred. A yellow saddle is to be severely penalized. The skin is well pigmented, preferably grey in colour. The nose, eye rims, lips, and flews are black. The roof of the mouth should be dark. Pads of the feet are black or slate grey and slate-coloured nails are preferred.

Coat at AKC Kuvasz Standard
The Kuvasz has a double coat, formed by guard hair and fine undercoat. The texture of the coat is medium coarse. The coat ranges from quite wavy to straight. Distribution follows a definite pattern over the body regardless of coat type. The head, muzzle, ears and paws are covered with short, smooth hair. The neck has a mane that extends to and covers the chest. Coat on the front of the forelegs up to the elbows and the hind legs below the thighs is short and smooth. The backs of the forelegs are feathered to the pastern with hair 2 to 3 inches long. The body and sides of the thighs are covered with a medium length coat. The back of the thighs and the entire tail are covered with hair 4 to 6 inches long. It is natural for the Kuvasz to lose most of the long coat during hot weather. Full luxuriant coat comes in seasonally, depending on climate. Summer coat should not be penalized.

Now look at those pictures from AKC, https://www.akc.org/breeds/kuvasz/photos.cfm here Hafspajen (talk) 20:42, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

An attempt towards a compromise?
Unfortunately,, just linking to images is not enough. They have to be available on Commons or the English Wikipedia (sorry, that was my fault as I hadn't explained it to you properly). managed to find some images and then kindly managed to move one. So, Kuvaszf - would you object to this image being used in the info box (I'm hoping that you would be happy with that as well, Hafspajen?) Normally the info box image is a picture of a dog standing but as the head is important, I felt in this instance this image might be acceptable? SagaciousPhil  -  Chat  15:16, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I am happy enough, because this is the way Kuvasz is used. (May I mention that according too my couple years living in Hungary Hungarian knowledge kan means simply male dog). Hafspajen (talk) 15:25, 13 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm happy enough with the picture (but I don't think the painting should be used). Kuvaszf (talk) 09:27, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Great, thanks, I'll add it as the info box image. I also agree about not using the painting - looking at the additional source information, it just specifies a "Dog called Ross".  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  09:47, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, I was only joking about that painting. Hafspajen (talk) 00:43, 22 January 2014 (UTC)Jokingly aside: Ross or Kan, does it matter ?(still joking)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 September 2016
Ok 71.175.110.137 (talk) 10:54, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Not an edit request. KGirlTrucker81huh? what I'm been doing 13:54, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Observation on downslide in quality grading
It may be worth reverting this article to a substantially earlier version and then editing and revising based on that. In 2008 or 2009, the article was graded as a "B" for the Dogs Project, and is now a "C". (Though after 11~12 years, the citations would probably need significant updating.) Unless the standards for that project have changed, it seems the revisions that have been taking place, rather than improving the overall quality, seem to be degrading it.