Talk:Kwang Jo Choi/Archive 1

Court Case

 * Comment Just because it is on koos website, the 22 page letter, it does not mean what koo is saying is true, we need to see court case citation.Diamonddannyboy (talk) 12:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Koo self defence Koo has only one club in the uk, CKD has over 400, so I cant see the above being true.Diamonddannyboy (talk) 12:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

The site which the reference is linked to has very comprehensive documentation, it lists clearly that a writ for libel was filed under the name 'James Kwang Jo Choi' against Roger Koo. The proceedings are documented with the law courts, its a matter of history. Roger Koo has even publicly published his 22 page letter of resignation and every major Instructor within Choi Kwang Do Martial Arts International has read this letter, it is quite a matter of fact. I understand that you are probably a practitioner of this art and are somewhat bias, but even Mother Teresa has a criticism section. BMurray (talk) 12:45, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I more than a practitioner of that art, im a leading uk and international instructor and im mentioned on the koo web site and the info about me is wrong, so no the koo web site in not fact, we need to see the court case details from the court, not self published work from Roger Koo. I hope you understand what im saying now, I agree with you it on the web site but that is self pubished, have you any other links to the court case.Diamonddannyboy (talk) 14:34, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment

Is that you on that YouTube video cracking your head? BMurray (talk) 12:20, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment No teach mma now, I ahve 30 years in the game, choi is just one string to my bow, send me the link would love to see it, the only heads I crack are on the door Saturday nights, or in the cage.--Diamonddannyboy (talk) 18:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Removed the 'Taekwondo' section, it reads like an advertisement and the only reference was straight from the Choi Kwang Do site. Choi Kwang Do orders and purchases large amounts of 'Combat Magazine', reference to Choi Kwang Do from Paul Clifton is basically 'cash for comment', other source required. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BMurray (talk • contribs) 20:53, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment we are not talking about artcile we are talking about combat hall of fame, for Ralph Allison, so what your saying is Ralph paid to go in hall of Fame, if you are saying that choi kwang do by a lot of mags so it cash for questions can you cite a reference to that, I have removed your tags again, and replaced by factual reference showing the award letter, if you continue to revert edits you will be warned under the 3RR and you could be blocked from editing.--Diamonddannyboy (talk) 07:34, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

"Although Marshall ordered 2.000 copies of the magazines" Terry Alexandrokos (excerpt from his resignation letter) Terry is making a reference to 2000 martial arts magazines. Numerous CKD schools buy martial arts mags, including 'Combat'. How can you make an untainted, objective comment about a martial art when they have a vested interest in your magazine? BMurray (talk) 08:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment choi kwang do has been in more than one magazine its been many over the past 20 years, and has 1000's and 1000,s of students with over 400 schools in th uk, are they all wrong too. The magazine shows kwang jo was awarded the Hall of Fame--Diamonddannyboy (talk) 16:01, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * ps your koo website just shows a letter sent the kwang jo choi it does not show the actual court case so it is not reliable or factual until you can source actual evidence and good refs, I will remove the court case section, be warned to keep removing fact tags will result in you being blocked under the 3RR rule --Diamonddannyboy (talk) 16:01, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Koo Self Defence Koos left choi kwang do in the early 1990s, and CKD only started in 1988 in the UK koo left in 1991 and they are still teaching CKD techniques, yet they still to this day some 18 years later put CKD down, when that is whta they are teaching, but with a different name, and the older version, choi has moved on from 91, yet koo still teaches those old techniques, Koos self defence is not notable, all they did was copy choi.--Diamonddannyboy (talk) 07:38, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:BLP concerns
I have excised part of the court case paragraph. Whilst Koo's site reproduces documents which attest to the fact that a court case took place, it cannot be a WP:RS in respect of the reasons for the outcome.

I have also excised the Taekwondo section, which makes claims that are not referenced from independent sources.

Mayalld (talk) 11:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

James Lim 'Cease and Desist' letter
This letter by James Lim is authentic, and the signature isn't forged Image:Jameslim.jpg BMurray (talk) 10:35, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Yoga
Hi guys im going to be removing the information on yoga, it suggests that yoga is a traditional martial art, yoga is not and has never been a martial art, yoga is a system of relaxation and stretching exercises that promote a healthy body.Please feel free to add your comments below on the discussion page.--Diamonddannyboy (talk) 11:54, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anybody would construe "Yoga" to mean a martial art. This article clearly says CKD incorporates "yoga-based stretching", it's obvious to most people that "yoga" is calisthenics combined with meditation. Also the kirwan CKD website says "Conventional martial arts methodology is more often based on mysticism" and implies that CKD is free of mysticism. These are the two main selling points of CKD yet they contradict each other - "CKD is free of mysticism, yet we practise yoga-based stretching". BMurray (talk) 12:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Mr Murray, are you an ex choi student or instructor, why all the CKD rubbishing, let it go ! yoga and mysticism, what the mystry in yoga mmmm let me think yer nothing. CKD is one of the best all round martial arts in the world, and Ive done a few check my page, if your local to London maybe I could show the benefits of CKD, perhaps you experinced a poor class or not so good instructor, lets say a karate student or kick boxing student did the same, would all karate& kick boxing schools be crap.--Diamonddannyboy (talk) 08:31, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

CKD uses a yoga based stretch. What that means is that some of the stretches are based on yoga poses while using deep abdominal breathing. Therefore I think it is a fair comment to make and should be retained. If CKD claimed to use Yoga then it would need amending, but as it is saying its stretches are BASED on Yoga, then I personally think its fine. Dale Miller

Comment
CKD stats that w traditional arts are more based on mysticism, however as you agree yoga is not a traditional martial art nor is there any mysticism yoga is what it is, and that is a strecthing based system with calisthenics and relaxation, CKD only promotes good health and uses modern science it a proven fact that yoga benefits the body, it a scientifc fact, do you agree with that! the problem with traditional martial art is that they can over a period of time be harmful to the body, when I was doing TKD all the jumping and locking made me have really bad knee problems. Has any one else found that with there training ?--90.210.142.60 (talk) 15:56, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I said yoga is a calisthenics incorporating meditation. Yoga is steeped in mysticism, meditation being a large part of that. Choi also meditates quite often during his tungeun breathing. BMurray (talk) 21:14, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Your quite right about the meditation, and yes CKD do use this is the tungeun, this is used to relax the body and get the mind reday for training, I think what choi means about the mysticism in traditional martial arts is based more on his scentific studies into CKD the artcile is abot Kwang Jo Choi the man not about the art, this article does not say any thing about yoga!!! mysticism and traditional martial arts, you only have to watch a kung fu moving!! to see where most people believe it will work, however real training in any art is very different for the street.--90.210.142.31 (talk) 06:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Proven to be effective martial system
Hi guys this is a pretty bold statment, however another editor is using the same RS in relation to the yoga ref, surley if we are using the RS for the yoga ref, and in that ref it mention proven to be the most effective martial art then that must be a RS. If not both should be removed, I agree with the later, both removed. Can not afvour one ref over another in the same RS. Please correct to prevent a editing war.--Diamonddannyboy (talk) 14:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a primary source so i've restated both as assertions rather than facts. Most effective is a whole can of worms and unless someone wants to do a round robin based on UFC 1 rules there will never be a scientifically definitive answer.--Nate1481(t/c) 15:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

"the most effective martial art system for todays modern society" is in fact an open ended statement, are we right in assuming that it is refering to knock down brawling? competition with another individual in a UFC type based environment or is it refering to a "system" where martial arts may be considered to be pursuit of development of the individual both physical and mental incorporating personal development as well as self defence? applying to the perhaps older balance marttial art theory of ying & yang Mind & body in a "modern sence" I have read and heard many times over the years the following and I may not have it word for word but it goes like this...  " martial arts without additional emphasis of character development is just punching and kicking and bloodying each other up" (if someone requires a referance Google it, it should not be hard to find), the referance for a modern society also infirs to me that we are not living in a society in the throws of civil unrest (as KJ Choi grew up in) and instead are in a civilized society. So the simplified idea of "effective" as only being based on the self defence aspect of martial arts is a narrow viewpoint on the purpose of martial arts as a whole. After all regardless of style it comes down to how much fight is in the dog as to how effective a PERSON can be (regardless of their style or how much noise they make :) The referance to Yoga says "based on" when I read it, it does not mean they 'do yoga' and it does not mean they follow yogas 'mystasism', but it is based on yoga, maybe that s just the physical side - visit a school and ask a ckd instructor :) lol.  B.Murray 's statement on tungeun breathing read like an opinion so I did a quick google search on tungeun breathing (http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=tungun+breathing&spell=1)  it produced 2 pages plus about 6 to 7 commercial ads per page - 100% of the ads refer to breathing methods, 0% refer to meditation, the resulting search links produced where quite varied but I did not see any refering to meditation.  --Bacmac (talk)  —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC).

Civilized Society

 * Perhaps you live in a different world than me, when Choi was growing up, we are no more civilized, Do you know how many tenagers have been killed by knife crime 08 to 09 in London ? How about in the UK ? What about wars and un rest in the middle East, im sure those living in israel would not agree !!! What about all the sick Bastards killing children ? drug problems, world of starving children, civilized society what a Joke,, There is still, if not more so a need for good self defence..Oh and dont get me started with all the over weight people and depression !!! CKD is great form of self defence/health programme for every one..Regards to a UFC round robin, how many 92 year old cage fighters do you know ? (and dont say gracie) CKD has student in there 80's and 90's, CKD has been scientifically proven to be powerful, see youtube for the results. Its faster, more fluid, stronger, powerfull and not harmfull to the body. I suppose that we are all wrong and its in most of the countries across the world I suppose thousands are wrong lol--Diamonddannyboy (talk) 14:57, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

When Kwang Jo Choi sits with his legs crossed and eyes closed after stretching and tells the students to clear their mind, that is technically meditation. That part of the yoga is holistic based and mystical which is contradictory to the claim that CKD is a non mystic based martial art. BMurray (talk) 10:55, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Lol, BMurray, i'm not going to respond to a unsupported unsubstantiated statement and I suggest anyone else who is tempted to respond should visit BMurrays talk page and read it, I just did - Bacmac (talk)  —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:43, 18 November 2008 (UTC).

I thought it was just a given that meditation was mystical, I don't see why it has to be substantiated that it is. BMurray (talk) 05:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * who said CKD meditate ? is it not just breathing, B Murray come on what the crack ? ex student, bad instructor, never made black belt, koo self defence, dynamic self defence, what ?? what is your problem ? let me know, come to a good CKD school, honest my friend your enjoy it.--Diamonddannyboy (talk) 08:44, 16 February 2009 (UTC)


 * surley CKd being the largets growing martial in the world is proof enough it is the most effective in the world, its well mentioned in many main stream magazine thats its that largest growing, also BMurray you wanted to use the same ref for some thing else !!

UFC rules does not prove effective, is UFC effective for over 50's to get more healthy ? mmm no, is UFC effective as a street defence mmm do they use knifes in UFC ? mmmm No shall we put all the children from 3 years old into a UFC ring to see if there confidence improves ....what a complete div...so nate if I beat you does that mean shotokan karate is crap.. I have worked on the door for many years and have never lost a street fight...--Diamonddannyboy (talk) 09:05, 16 February 2009 (UTC)