Talk:Kwantlen Polytechnic University/Archive 1

To the other major editor of Kwantlen article
Thank you for contributing to this article.

While some of your additions were an excellent help expanding on the topic, there were some problems with your edits. You have copied large parts of information directly from the Kwantlen website, as well as not specified licenses for images (some can be tagged as fair use, but not others).

I have done the following since your update:

- Copyedited large chunks of text and lists - Removed welding picture (doesnt qualify as fair use) - Tagged other pictures as fair use - Edited directly copied text to comply with copyright issues as well as make it more fit for an encyclopedia - Toned down hype and Crystal Balling - Removed redundancy - Removed some noncritical data that could not be referenced (this also sized down lists) - Improved infobox - Organized data by relevance - Wikified text - Updated some information (such as dentail and medical fees which can no longer be waived). - Referenced a LOT of things - Moved some links to References, removed some other links not fit for enc article

I appreciate your time taken to edit this article. Please feel free to contribute, but remember to follow Wikipedia policies and guidelines.Elvarg 01:07, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

To Elvarg
Thanks for your input. You say your a Kwantlen student, so I'm curious to know who you are... I'm also a Kwantlen student, and a former staff member and elected official of the Kwantlen Student Association. I've also served on the Kwantlen Board of Governors and Education Council. I'm fairly new to Wikipedia and I stumbled across this page and felt it could be updated. I'm also starting work on a Kwantlen Student Association entry.


 * Hi Steve! My name is Eugeny Gilburg, I'm currently a student in Kwantlen on the Computer Information Systems program. I also worked in the IET department as a technician, and in the Learning Center as a tutor. Nice to meet you. I'm sure you'd be a big help in collaboration on this article. Wikipedia is an excellent place to let things be known, but you must follow a few basic rules (keep articles neutral, accurate, verifiable, and free of advertisement or self-promotion). If you want to mention a controversial topic (Such as our recent scandal at the KSA elections), you must present ALL points of view in neutral tone. Elvarg 23:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your editing of the contributions I made - especially in regards to providing footers that help verify the sources of the information contained on the page.


 * YW, on Wikipedia it is very important to identify and list ALL sources you use as data for your facts. Since Wikipedia is written by (often anonymous) volunteers, our words alone aren't good enough without references to back them up.Elvarg 23:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

In regards to some of your points:

1. I've never added photos to the Wikipedia commons and actually forgot to enter the copyright info when I posted them and there was no way to go back and edit it once it was posted. The photo of the talon room is a photo I took a number of years ago, and the other photos I added were photos I have access to from Kwantlen's marketing department (we used to regularly exchange photos we took of various events and campus activities). All of the photos in question appear on the Kwantlen website. The welding photo is from the Newton campus page of the Kwantlen website – the promotion of trades and technology programs across Canada has been an important drive for post-secondary institutions and governments at the provincial and federal levels. Many students don’t realize that trades careers can be very challenging and rewarding careers. So it would be good to include pictures highlighting that Kwantlen is more than just an academic university.


 * OK, thanks for the info. Now, this is very important. If you took the photo YOURSELF (and own the copyright to it), and are willing to release it to the public domain or under a free license, you can upload it to Commons. Regardless of whether it is on commons or here, you MUST choose the appropriate license, or your picture will be deleted very soon. As well, it is NOT ALLOWED by Wikipedia rules to upload non-free images (images you don't own and consider taking them simply fair use) on Commons, you can only do it on the English wikipedia (for english articles) and use on relevant articles only. I'd suggest you re-upload the pictures to here if they are not yours/not on a free license (if you didn't take them they are NOT on free license unless you have express permission from the taker), and remove them from commons by placing "AFD" surrounded by on them and explaining you made a mistake. Elvarg 23:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Even if you put these photos on English version, you still must specify the license used. Fair use is dodgy here because similar pictures can be easily replicated by any photographer in Kwantlen, and one of the prerequisites of Fair Use is that the image is hard to replicate. If you can, please replace ALL kwantlen photos on the Kwantlen article with images you took yourself, or otherwise have proof they are under a free license or in the public domain. Keeping within copyright rules (which are understandably strict on Wikipedia) is very important if you want your article to stay and perhaps even gain featured status (no better way to get it known to the masses!) Elvarg 23:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Once again, please DO NOT copy non-free pictures (regardless of how harmless the intent) unless it clearly qualifies as fair use. The welding article does not really tell much about Kwantlen specifically, its just a picture of a guy welding, and as such clearly does NOT qualify as fair use, which requires all images to illustrate concepts otherwise impossible to describe. Elvarg 23:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

2. When I updated the page, I sent the URL for this page to the Kwantlen Senior Administration, Board of Governors, Education Council and the Marketing Department. After I sent it to them, the Kwantlen marketing department made a number of changes to the information presented on the page.

3. Finally, regarding the changes you made, I only edited one point regarding the health & dental fees. I'm not sure where you got information regarding opting-out but it is my understanding that you can still opt-out of the student health & dental plan at the beginning of the fall and spring semesters if you are a new student in that semester and have coverage elsewhere and if you do it before the opt-out deadline you can opt-out.


 * Feel free to continue editing. You can also try to expand the article, there are a LOT of things you can tell about. Some interesting points that could be written: -Kwantlen accreditation by government and community; -Kwantlen housing and homestay services; -Employment; -Bylaws summary; -Even the recent stuff going on at the KSA (but remember to stay NEUTRAL); -Comparison to other colleges/university colleges/universities; -Many many other things. Feel free to make bold changes as long as you respect other people's contributions and the Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Elvarg 23:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

The ability to opt-out in this manner has always been a part of the plan and a part of the referendum question that passed these fees in the fall of 1999 and as such the only way to discontinue the opting-out provisions would be to hold another referendum. In fact, if memory serves me right, the KSA had two referendums on this issue, the first was in regards to a plan where no opting-out was allowed, and this was defeated. When provisions for opting-out were offered, a second subsequent referendum (held in the fall of 1999) passed.

Once you have opted-out, I believe you are opted-out for life unless you chose to opt back into the program at a later date.

There have been recent issues with students who fail to follow the proper opting-out procedures but the KSA has been working with the Institution to ensure that this no longer happens (at one point, there was talk of the KSA suing Kwantlen over this issue). The plan administrator website also currently lists the spring 2006 opt-out deadline. I know a number of the people who work in the health & dental offices at the Richmond Campus of Kwantlen and I contacted them by phone regarding the procedures for opting-out and the information I summarized in the article is correct and true as of December 22, 2005. In the end, anyone wanting information regarding the health & dental plan and its provisions for opting out should consult the online website or by directly contacting the plan administration staff via the contact information provided on the online website at: http://www.gallivan.ca/studentnetworks/members/Kwantlen/kuc.html


 * I once saw a Kwantlen poster by the KSA saying roughly "we no longer provide new opt-outs, however we can cooperate with the student to maximize coverage". Since I have no references to my statements though, and you provided contrary references to yours, I'd gladly accept for now your modification. Elvarg 23:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I think it's very cool that Wikipedia has a Kwantlen entry and I thank-you for creating it.


 * Looking forward to cooperating. Elvarg 23:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Respectfully submitted,

Steven Lee, Kwantlen Student, steveleenow@yahoo.com http://www.steveleenow.net/


 * P.S. Why not create an account on Wikipedia? It only takes a few seconds (it wont even ask to verify your email), and communicating with you will be much easier. Elvarg 00:03, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Done =).
 * Great! And don't forget to sign your comments using four tildes (the sign ~ ) in a row.Elvarg 00:42, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Another reminder
ALL FACTS you state on the article must be SPECIFICALLY referenced. For example, you shouldn't state some specific details on planned degrees, and then as a reference give the link to the Kwantlen Governance homepage which has no direct info backing up the facts you stated. You'll need to find and link to the exact page that specifically supports your facts. If such a page does not exist, regretfully you shouldn't post the info. One of the Wikipedia policies is that "it is not a crystall ball", that is, it does not guarantee things that are not proven to exist. Elvarg 00:05, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the info, I made the link more specific - the info provided in the listing was under the EDUCATION COUNCIL section, under one of its subcommittees. Also, people can search the minutes of Education Council minutes if they wish to see further information about new program development. Finally, I added a general link to the Kwantlen Governance page for people interested in knowing more about the inner-workings of Kwantlen. The site is lacking though, in design and style... the people responsible for maintaining it aren't wizards when it comes to website design. But the sections there are regularly maintained, if basic in appearance, and the information is useful and valid. When I was on Board and Edco, I brought up the issue of providing more technical support for the admin support staff who are responsible for the Governance section but it's never been addressed. If you look at other university and university college websites (http://www.sfu.ca/pres/governance/ for example), they have well developed websites that are nicely streamlined in terms of style.

Some more info

 * About the KUC thing. Remember, after all, no particular person owns this article on Wikipedia (not even its writers, all published text becomes owned by the collective team of Wikipedia editors), and so really nobody has the right to have the final say on what an article will include. Since KUC isn't used very commonly I'll let this slide, but in general all facts need to be stated, even not very pleasant ones. Elvarg 00:49, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Perhaps consider creating "Future" section (one of the subsections will be Push to Uni), and another subsection will be all the planned degrees and other planned stuff. You can try doing that, or I'll do that once you are done editing. It is very good to separate facts from proposals, to make it really clear whats already there and whats just planned. Once again, remember, Wikipedia is a neutral encyclopedia, not a place to advertise. One should not manipulate the article to be most favorable to their point of view, and nearly all major articles have "criticism" section where alternative views are outlined (kwantlen may or may not need one, depending on whether there are editors who disagree with you or others yet present valid points from their own point of view. Elvarg 00:49, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with your point about advertising and the KUC thing - in fact I wanted to put something in about a criticism but didn't know how to do it at that time (still don't actually). But, within a year or so the "KUC" thing could be a moot point, as we could known as "Kwantlen Regional University" or "Kwantlen Univeristy" or "Kwantlen Community University" or some other variant. Further, based on your suggestion I changed the title of "bachelor's degrees" to "program offerings" and added a new section called "new program development." May be useful to perhaps highlight some of the more interesting diplomas / certificates offered under the "program offerings" section (certainly not all 100+ of them!).
 * I'd strongly reccomend to tone down descriptions of what is yet to come, and rather focus on what's already there. That will make the article sound much more credible and have less hype. Elvarg 01:16, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * the changes you made look good.

Pictures issue
Steve, we really need to do something about licensing the images. Wikipedia is VERY strict about this. The kwantlen article looks really good, and I want to propose it for a Peer Review (first tage towards Good article and eventually Featured Article status), but if we don't fix the images first, it's going to crash the attempt at best, and at worst someone will (rightfully) take down all Kwantlen pictures from Commons leaving the article with almost no pictures at all.

If you can, please send me an archive of all Kwantlen pictures that you took (and are willing to release your copyright to them). I can then take some legally available pictures for the article. Or try putting some yourself, as long as you replace all the pictures you borrowed from the Kwantlen websites or other non-your-own work. Use only your own work, and I reccomend uploading it to the English wikipedia rather than the Commons. Elvarg 03:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * How do we fix this? There are two things that can be done: 1. I can talk to kwantlen marketing and get them to post pictures to the common or english wikipedia area themselves, and they can put whatever copyright info on them and note they are ok to be used on this entry. MEGAN-KWANTLEN is a staff person from Kwantlen who edited the page and they never did anything about the pictures posted at that time. In my e-mail to Kwantlen officials about the site, I noted I added some of my own pictures and some pictures from the Kwantlen site. Never received any objections to that. 2. I have lots of other pictures and can upload them. But that leads me to my next question - How do you replace / remove the stuff that got previously posted incorrectly? It wouldn't let me do anything to the picturs I posted and won't let me delete them. If you can e-mail me or post info or a link on how to upload to the english wikipedia that would be appreciated as the help section when I looked at it awhile back seemed to only provide info on posting pictures to commons. If you can also send info on how we can request the removal of the originally posted files that would be good too. In terms of new photos, I won't be able to do it today, and probably not until end of next week, as the next few days being really busy for me (it being the holidays and all...). Finally, the Kwantlen crest isn't that sharp. I understand the fair use guidelines provided by Wikipedia for logos but we should try to get a better copy. I'll see if the marketing people can forward us one. The text and image is blurry. Kwantlen does let the logo be used elsewhere but doesn't allow modification to it. The KSA got into a lot of crap a few years ago when it printed a brochure called the "Kwantlen Survival Guide" which listed all the important numbers of Kwantlen services and used the crest on the cover. It was also a poor quality copy of the crest.

Oh, and I also need some references for your statement that Kwantlen seeks to be the member of that accreditation body. Elvarg 03:43, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The AUCC application is common information for Board members and senior administration & faculty at Kwantlen. The Kwantlen search page seems to be down.

http://www.kwantlen.ca/search_our_site.htm

From not doing a real search, because the site is down, found some references in minutes online:

http://plaza.kwantlen.ca/sites/edcouncil.nsf/pages/September02 (9)

http://plaza.kwantlen.ca/sites/edcouncil.nsf/pages/EdCoMinMar17-03 (1.5)

http://plaza.kwantlen.ca/sites/edcouncil.nsf/pages/EdcoMinutesSep13-04 (7)

http://plaza.kwantlen.ca/sites/edcouncil.nsf/pages/PRCMinutesSep28-05 (5.a)

http://www.kfa.bc.ca/kfacts/KFActs%20-%20June%2004.pdf (page 5, question 1)

http://www.kfa.bc.ca/kfacts/KFActs%20-%20January%202004.PDF (page 2, CAUT Censure)

http://www.mtroyal.ca/university/view.php?item=000257 (PROBABLY THE MOST CLEAR STATEMENT that Kwantlen is seeking membership. Has quotes by Skip Triplet, President about the importance of being a member and the plan to apply again in 2007. For now, I'll create a reference to this article until I can find something better on the Kwantlen site as I'm sure there are lots of references in various documents on the site. Unfortunately because the Kwantlen search engine is down, I can't find anything better.

Kwantlen had applied for membership in 2002 but was denied for a number of reasons - not enough degrees, small library, etc. That's why you now see learning centers on each campus, and that's why Building A in Surrey is being doubled in size. That's why we're greatly expanding the Bachelor degrees we offer across all our areas and that's why we launched the BA. The goals set in the strategic plan that was developed specifically looked at improving Kwantlen's weak areas so that when it applies again (in 2007 I believe) it will get in. Kwantlen is the only University College in BC that isn't a member. Strategic plan here:

http://plaza.kwantlen.ca/sites/ventures.nsf/7d18d2cab034a96c882568db006ec154/6dad3d7832f32faf882570460072366d/$FILE/ImplementationPlan-15-Sep-03.pdf

Links / References
Any links or references made on the Kwantlen Wiki page were to pages that are openly available to any visitor visiting the official kwantlen.ca website. If Kwantlen intended information that is on the "plaza" website to be private, then you wouldn't be able to access it.

Also, there are many parts of the "plaza" website accessible from other parts of the Kwantlen website, such as the Governance page and the Facilities page (if the Facilities page was private, then external people wouldn't be able to rent conference space). You can also perform a search on the Kwantlen search engine and get stuff off of the open areas of that site.

Kwantlen has been slowly updating its website, and there have been instances of dead links or stuff being moved out of plaza to other areas of the main site. It's not as smooth flowing as say sfu.ca or ubc.ca but it's getting there.

Finally, members of the senior administration, Board of Governors and Education Council are aware this page exists and have visited it and did not object or attempt to remove the plaza links that were posted. They did do some minor edits to the page(which is anyone's right to do so), but they did not remove any of the links that had been posted.

It's also been stated above by user Elvarg that:


 * "...on Wikipedia it is very important to identify and list ALL sources you use as data for your facts. Since Wikipedia is written by (often anonymous) volunteers, our words alone aren't good enough without references to back them up."


 * "ALL FACTS you state on the article must be SPECIFICALLY referenced. For example, you shouldn't state some specific details on planned degrees, and then as a reference give the link to the Kwantlen Governance homepage which has no direct info backing up the facts you stated. You'll need to find and link to the exact page that specifically supports your facts. If such a page does not exist, regretfully you shouldn't post the info. One of the Wikipedia policies is that "it is not a crystall ball", that is, it does not guarantee things that are not proven to exist."

In the end, if anyone can access anything on the Kwantlen website or any of its subsidiary sites, then it should be fair game for linking to from this page.

Pictures
If you do not have time or knowledge to fix the pictures issue, please send me a collection of Kwantlen pictures that you took yourself and are willing to release under the GDFL free license to elvarg@gmail.com. I'll sort it all out myself -- remove unfree pictures (and get them marked for deletion from Wikipedia), choose appropraite pictures from what you sent me to upload, and put them in article.

If I don't get new images in 2-3 days, I'll have no choice but to remove the non-free pictures anyways (what will be removed is the Kwantlen Richmond, Langley, and Surrey campus pictures that are currently on the site). The logo and kwantlen eagles qualify to stay under fair use, and as you have taken the gym picture yourself and I understand you are willing to release it under the GDFL, I have already it so and it will stay as well.

Other issues
Feel free to expand on the Kwantlen article. I have already got some advice that we have too many lists and too little text, and so some copyediting is needed (keep it encyclopedic though). Also you can expand or add many interesting topics:


 * Add info on Governance, Administration
 * Expand on History
 * Add Homestay info
 * Add Student Exchange programs info
 * Expand on offered courses
 * Add information on accreditation
 * If you want to do a neutral and objective comparison between Kwantlen and similar institutions, you can do that too.

And of course you can try copyediting some of the longer lists into paragraph format, or expand on them.

There are a lot of things that can be added! In fact, to gain featured status, this article should be expanded quite a lot.

The pictures remain the most pressing issue though, so please deal with it.

- Elvarg 01:06, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

The "scandal"
Do you think it's worthy of an article. It made the front page of the Vancouver Sun.... I don't know enough to make an NPOV statement on it though. It looks like the scandal was kind of big -ish. I don't think those election procedures pizza !bribes on election day, campgaining on election days etc are quite notable but the scandal itself is. -- Tawker 04:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC)