Talk:Kyo (musician)/Archive 1

Kyo of Deg
Saka: We were talking about this at Batsu's Jrock Forum (batsu.org), and whether it was a good idea to do or not(create listings for each member, that is); but now that you've already created his page by yourself, I'm sure people will help instead of delete. :) I'll give it a mention and maybe it will spark some interest? I'm satisified with the Deg page for now, so this may be nice to work on.

I see some spelling errors and maybe a lil pov here and there; but also some other things; the first line, actually; (Kyo is the stagename of a popular Japanese artist.) >>> (Kyo is the stagename of a popular Japanese artist belonging to the group Dir en Grey). Or something like that instead. :) And concerning his name, I don't think that it is a good idea to say AS FACT that it is tooru/anything, because I don't believe anything official has been published that says it is; it's simply accepted canon, you could say. ^^ Anyway, once I go through the whole thing I may make some changes. Thanks for taking the time to write this, Saka.

tp 21:34, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)

Kyo's not my favorite or anything, but I felt he needed a bit more explaning. After all, he's the only member that's done much of anything beyond the band, and considering it's been published and all, I felt it he should be explained more. As far as I'm aware, there's not much the others have done outside of the band (and their past bands). As a solo artist I felt he deserved a little credit. I thought about adding more about the poetry and less about the lyrics, but none of the poems came to mind at the moment I was writing it. They're still pretty new for my mind. Maybe you'd have something more to say about them?

Feel free to change it as you feel is best. I'm sure you're better at this stuff than I am ^^

Saka 6:54pm 04.01.2004

I want to remind people, after checking older versions of this article, that wikipedia entries are not supposed to contain opinions. Please respect that people's opinion about kyo's talent and style differ, but that the article is not to contain any valuatons such as awesome or horrible singer. Even if it is your primary aim to make people angry by titling him 'a horrible singer' (and can't even use correct grammar), keep in mind that you're also violating the rules of wikipedia. For further details, please check Neutral point of view, which states that it's an official policy of wikipedia to keep an objective point of view for every article.

Mistoline 11:56pm 06.01.2006

Article cleanup
I chose the copyedit tag instead of the npov tag because I think that it can easily be fixed by some thoughtful editing, and hasn't reached the point of 'controvery' yet. However, edits should deal with that as quickly as possible. -Lhall 07:33, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
After numerous tags have been in place for some time, I've finally opted for a thorough cleanup, with some trivial and a lot unsourced information going overboard for now. It is quite a shame actually, as this was the only article about a member of Dir en grey which sported sort of an actual biography. Alas, information like this needs to be sourced nonetheless. - Cyrus XIII 22:55, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Real Name?
I know Kyo's real name is Tōru Nishimura and it clearly says his real name on the Japanese Interwiki site for Kyo. I do not know what to do now. I am totally not sure on adding his real name, but one the BLP rules state that real names must be included with a reliable source. Is there any reliable source for his real name? I feel that it is necessary to add that on the page (also with a reliable source). If there is, let me know. Sjones23 20:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Never mind. I actually found a reliable source. It is VULGARism, an approved DEG fanlisting which shows the information about their history and I think it is a reliable source. Sjones23 20:49, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I also think it is also really important and necessary to list the real names of all the band members of DEG. Sjones23 20:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Fanlistings make questionable sources at best, and the boys of Dir en grey have not, to my knowledge, ever released their given names to the public, so it would probably be in everyone's best interest to leave the names off until some kind of official source comes about. It would be nice to have real names to add to the articles, but nicer to have a solid source. Lithiumflower 20:57, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, I am fully aware that they also released their names to the public after discovering who they really are. I think it is really necessary to add them, if there is a solid source. To my knowledge, the boys of DEG however have actually released their given names to the public (including fanlistings as well) Sjones23 21:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with Lithiumflower, it is important to keep any supposed given names out of Wikipedia until a reliable source comes along. WP:BLP and WP:CRYSTAL are pretty clear on this and I have encountered multiple instances of widely accepted "facts" that upon closer inspection either had no solid source to back them up (and never received one after the information was challenged) or were downright wrong (i.e. Gauze being Dir en grey's major label debut album). - Cyrus XIII 21:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I must also agree with Lithiumflower. Plus, if you find the reliable sources, let me know. Sjones23 23:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC).


 * Also, if ther are facts that have no solid source, I must add a "citation needed" tag. Sjones23 00:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the "citation needed" tag would be unnecessary, as the unsourced 'real name' claim was not added as per what I thought to be the conclusion of this discussion. Or am I misunderstanding? Lithiumflower 00:35, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * To my knowledge, I am a fan of Dir en grey and since Kyo and the boys at Dir En Grey has never did confirm their birth names to the public, it very well might be offensive to them for these things, but any fan, including myself, would have their birth names anyway. I feel citation needed tags could be necessary. I apply them whenever an article doesn't cite their references and/or sources. Sjones23 00:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * (random un-indent) I'm afraid I don't understand at all, then. How would fans have indisputable, 100% certain knowledge of their names without some sort of official release? Wouldn't it simply be speculation and popular belief, rather than fact? Without 100% certainty, I can't see how such information would work its way into the articles, and if the information is not present, "citation needed" tags seem completely unnecessary. Lithiumflower 00:55, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, to tell you the truth, Lithiumflower, the boys at Dir en Grey actually keep their personal information secret. That misunderstanding comment that I put earlier was a huge mistake. Sorry ^^! If you look on Talk:Hyde (singer) and Hyde (singer), you can actually see why he keeps his personal info secret. No offence, but unfortunately, you sounded a little bit flustered in your previous comment. Sjones23 01:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * And I also quote from you: "Fanlistings make questionable sources at best, and the boys of Dir en grey have not, to my knowledge, ever released their given names to the public, so it would probably be in everyone's best interest to leave the names off until some kind of official source comes about. It would be nice to have real names to add to the articles, but nicer to have a solid source." I am really sorry about the misunderstanding comment that I accidentaly put up their, Lithiumflower. Sjones23 01:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, I'm quite aware of what I said earlier; a simple scrolling up provides the information. ^.^
 * Now, perhaps I'm the only one who sees it this way, but you seem to be changing your opinion with each addition to the discussion. Not that there's anything wrong with this, but perhaps you could, at least for my benefit, summarize your thoughts on the whole issue once more? I have a feeling that if everyone is clear on everyone else's position, the discussion might find a quick and efficient end, satisfactory for all involved. Lithiumflower 01:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that the men of Dir en grey have not had an officially printed source that says their names are what everyone assumes they are. If there is one from the bands early days (Missa, Gauze) it has yet to surface.
 * The closest we've got is that Kyo has actually written "Tooru Nishimura" (Not "Niimura", as some sources quote. The kanji cannot be read any other way than 'Nishi', though I beleive the other two in the name can be read different ways, leading into further suspicion over what the name really is.) on several documents - one from the band's early days, and more recently it appeared in drawings his second poetry album (I could provide personal scans of this document). However, Kyo is not known for his personal reliability, and furthermore, an artists doodles are not a reliable source even if they are in an 'official' release. The name hasn't appeared in print.
 * I personally to not see the incredible importance to prove or provide what band members birthnames are. They will always be recognized by their stage names. Joey Jordison's real name is Nathan... but everyone still calls his Joey. Slash's name is Saul, but everyone still calls him Slash. Birthnames are essentially just trivia, not neccesarily who a person wants to be or is. Saka 15:14, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * One more thing. I quote from Cyrus XIII: "WP:BLP and WP:CRYSTAL are pretty clear on this and I have encountered multiple instances of widely accepted "facts" that upon closer inspection either had no solid source to back them up (and never received one after the information was challenged) or were downright wrong (i.e. Gauze being Dir en grey's major label debut album)." Also, the Internet Movie Database usually contain real names and could be a reliable source. Lindsay Lohan's full name, Lindsay Dee Lohan, is attributed to a reliable source on the article. Birthnames are usually important in most cases, but I must strongly and respectfully agree that "the men of Dir en grey have not had an officially printed source that says their names are what everyone assumes they are. If there is one from the bands early days (Missa, Gauze) it has yet to surface." Sjones23 03:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC)