Talk:Léon Degrelle/Archive 1

Problems I have with this version
There are a few things that need correction, I think.

1) the fact that both Mussolini and Hitler subsidized Rex is mentioned, but not to what amount. There are numbers mentioned in the Dutch version.

2) "Drawing its major support from Wallonia, Rexism had a Flemish counterpart in the Vlaamsch Nationaal Verbond." Dubious sentence. There was a Rex party in Flanders, and the party got seats there in 1936. After occupying Belgium, the Germans forced Rex Vlaanderen to integrate into the Vlaamsch Nationaal Verbond, which was a Flemish Nationalist movement. An exact Flemish counterpart of Rex would have been the Verdinaso movement of Joris Van Severen, which started as a Flemish Nationalist movement but gradually turned Belgian nationalist in the Rex style as Van Severen came to perceive German Nazism as a threat to Flanders, the Dutch language and its culture.

3) "He was arrested as an active collaborator, and evacuated to France, being released by the Germans when the Occupation began." The beginning of the sentence at least suggests that he was an active collaborator already, while he was actually arrested as a possible collaborator on the first day of the German attack on Belgium. Others arrested were Joris Van severen (the secret police had not yet noticed the remarkable shift in Verdinaso policies) and the leaders of the communist party. Joris Van Severen and some on communists were executed by French soldiers who had run amok at Abbéville. Degrelle escaped that massacre.

4) The war record does not mention his paticipation at Cherkassy (he got wounded there) and his involvement (by mail) in the murder of several personal enemies of his in Bouillon after his brother was killed by the resistance on July 8th 1944.

5) Saved by ODESSA? Come on, let's get real. After Hitler's death, Degrelle with some friends escaped through Denmark and Norway, found an abandoned little plane, which he flew over liberated Western Europe to crash land on the beach of San Sebastian in Northern Spain. A well known anecdote. No ODESSA involvement.--Pan Gerwazy 21:45, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Having myself expanded the article, I have to point out that I have little expertise on this particular topic (namely, Degrelle). I have merely translated stuff from the Spanish version. Dahn 22:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explanation. I see now how some small inaccuracies may have crept in: the Senate-Chamber switch, the fact that Degrelle was no collaborator yet when he got arrested, and this thing about ODESSA (actually, there is a rumour that Degrelle played an important role in ODESSA, but he was not saved himself by it). I am not sure about Speer and this story about a lookalike, by the way. It sounds rather strange that Speer, who had become an opponent of Hitler by that time should have helped Degrelle. But if you have a source... --Pan Gerwazy 20:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I cannot confirm anything in my version. I just relied on what the Spanish wiki had a time (without removing things already in the article), thinking that someone was to check the information for accuracies &mdash; thank you for doing just that. In my view, you are welcome to delete that part and all others you find inaccurate, or ask for citations if you feel like it. Dahn 21:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

With regard to 20.01.1945 SS-Standartenführer d. R. der Waffen-SS Degrelle was never made a SS-Standartenführer ! In fact, there's no such entry in the official records. SS-Obersturbannführer is the accurate rank. Eddy De Bruyne


 * Since no one counterdicts you, and you seem knowledgeable, I have edited the article to conform to your affirmation.--Pan Gerwazy 12:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Afraid I am going to have to. I have seen photos of him in the uniform of a Standartenfuehrer.  It appears he didnt have time to change his insignia to Brigadefuehrer, as the uniform he wore all the time in Spain still had his Standartenfuehrer collar tabs - see this photo of him in his elderly years - http://www.libreopinion.com/members/leondegrelle/degrel1.jpg  user:PZG Ratzinger
 * Once again, the rank of SS-Standartenführer is usurped. Degrelle claims he received the rank from Himmler on May, 2nd but omits to mention that by that time Himmler had been kicked out of office by Hitler. Thus, that promotion is not valid. But it is true that Degrelle, once in Spain, continued to parade in an SS uniform wearing the SS-Standartenführer rank. Eddy De Bruyne.


 * Hm, After looking around I cant disprove it. The history of the Walloon division is murky and there are not many photos of him.  I'll have to do some digging, Im sure he saved his soldbuch and perhaps allowed copies of it done during his conferences he did from 1970-90s. user:Pzg Ratzinger

Before the War
The first paragraph seems derived from the apparent English translation entry in Metapedia.org (or vice versa). The meta and wiki translations are inconsistent with each other, and differ substantially from the French Wikipedia article: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9on_Degrelle. (English Google translation of article: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%25C3%25A9on_Degrelle&ei=tGU5T8LOOsi30gGc1OHWAg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDcQ7gEwAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25C3%2589ditions%2Bde%2BRex%26hl%3Den%26prmd%3Dimvns)

Will modify first paragraph per information in French Wiki entry as temporary improvement. Article REQUIRES more work by knowledgeable person(s) who, unlike me, can cite better than questionable secondary sources. RaqiwasSushi (talk) 20:11, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Lawyer?
The article says in one part that he unsuccessfully studied law and in another part that he was a lawyer. Which is true?--Sjharte 04:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * According to the French Wikipedia, he failed. According to Dutch MSN Encarta, he did become a lawyer. I did find a number of French language websites which claim he did indeed become a lawyer: (check the word rexism) He may never have pleaded, since immediately after leaving the university, he was asked to become Director of the publishing firm of Action Catholique. A possible problem with a Bar career may also have been a student prank he pulled at the time of the Petliura trial in Paris. He wrote an anti-Jewish piece in the student's magazine and then impersonated (or had a friend impersonate) the lawyer defending Petliura's murderer to file a defamation complaint against the magazine. Complaint he then called "an attack on the freedom of the press". Le "Beau Léon" eventually got off lightly, but perhaps the incident did make a legal career a bit difficult. Personally I believe he got the degree, but never practised. --Pan Gerwazy 00:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Degrelle failed to get his degree as he abandoned his law studies at the end (1927) of his 1st doctorate at the Louvain university. EDB (Eddy De Bruyne).


 * Nice find. But that is about a doctorate. I wonder: could he exercise as a licentiate in those days? In 1975 it was definitely possible. This one mentions both doctors and licentiates at law:. If that was also the case in 1927, you have in fact proved that he got the law degree, because in order to enroll for the doctorate, he had to have the licentiate degree first!--Pan Gerwazy 17:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, what you found probably explains both the claim that he "unsuccessfully studied" and the fact that he was a lawyer. If you can source your thing (give a link on the WWW or a book with page number), we should definitely put it in the article! --Pan Gerwazy 00:05, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * After checking the link at the bottom of this talk page, I think I should tell you (but of course, you probably already know - so I should not perhaps do this) that the reference cannot be anything you wrote yourself, even together with others. And of course, extended thanks for collaborating here. --Pan Gerwazy 16:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Some more?
Having written that last answer, I notice that the article passes over 1)that Degrelle was considered an attractive man by the ladies (did not help him electorally, however, Belgium still had male suffrage) - and 2)that he was excommunicated by a Belgian RC bishop because, wearing a uniform in church, he had assaulted the priest who came to tell him it was not allowed. -search for Degrelle. Interesting enough to add? --Pan Gerwazy 00:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't know about the first one, but the second one seems very relevant to the article IMO. Dahn 02:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Excommunication
That Degrelle was indeed excommunicated, cannot be doubted. It is also clear that this did not happen because his party cost the Catholic Party votes (as claimed eg by this one, search for "Degrelle"). What is unclear is whether his excommunication was later removed. The Wikipedia Excommunication article states a) that what Degrelle did, fell under automatic grounds for excommunication (grounds 4 and 5, desecration of the eucharist, molestation of a representative of the Pope) and that only the Pope could remove the excommunication. The fact that Pope John Paul II later blessed him (implying at the same time that he did not receive communion on that occasion) does not necessarily mean that the excommunication was removed. Excommunicated Roman Catholics are even encouraged to keep contact with the Church and attend Mass (without receiving communion, of course). So we are left with one source - heading 289 - which claims it was removed rather quickly. Excommunication in July (according to this August 19) and removal of it in December 1943. With the intervention of a German priest (necessary for the accompanying confession - see our excommunicationarticle), of course (Degrelle being on the Eastern front at the time). The problem is of course that neither Degrelle nor the Belgian Church ever advertised the removal of it. Which may be normal - because of the personal confession involved, or ... just so happens to be convenient to the Roman Catholic Church as they have indeed said "Well, whatever we failed to do about the Jews, we did excommunicate Degrelle" (and yes, even the excommunication itself is hardly ever mentioned by the Belgian Roman Catholic Church, except when its attitude towards the persecution of the Jews gets under fire). Which is almost the point this source tries to make. The source also says that the excommunication was not removed but nullified, which sounds rather strange, since Degrelle's actions constituted an automatic excommunication.

Under these circumstances, I think I will delete "by the Roman Catholic church" in the sentence related to the excommunication. I cannot reasonably replace that with "by the Bishop of Namur", because what Degrelle did (he even seems to have sequestred the priest) was an automatic excommunication offense. --Pan Gerwazy 12:48, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

In his memoirs the catholic chaplain of the Sturmbrigade Wallonien (Fierens : C'est un journal, ce n'est que cela, p. 40 - CEGES - Brussels) explains, given the fact that the unit was about to go to combat, he had the authority to remove the excommunication, which he actually did after confessing Degrelle. Eddy De Bruyne.

Degrelle got wounded at Chanderowka during the retreating battles of the Cherkassy Kessel breakout. In fact, the roof of the isba he had been sheltering in fell down hurting his shoulder (some plaster according to Marcel Lamproye, one of his his officers, witness of the accident). If Degrelle had been severely wounded he would not have been able to cover the 15km distance as far as the Gnoi Tikish river on foot, which he actually did. Eddy De Bruyne

SS-Standartenführer ????
I do not share the view that Degrelle was promoted to SS-Standartenführer on April 20th 1945. The truth is that a number of Walloon officers were actually promoted to a higher rank, more particularly those who had held the same officer's rank for at least one year. This was not the case for Degrelle as he had been promoted SS-Obersturmbannführer in January 1945 and thus was not entitled to another promotion. In fact, more than likely Degrelle promoted himself to the rank of SS-Standartenführer on May 2nd 1945 after he had met Himmler, who, by then, had been kicked out of office by Hitler! Eddy De Bruyne
 * Look also: one source Postl Michi 11:33, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi, Eddy, someone keeps putting Standartenfuehrer back and now has a book to prove, he says. Source: "Generale der Waffen-SS und der Polizei 1933-1945", Biblio-Verlag 2003, Bd. 1 "Degrelle" (ISBN 3-7648-2373-9) (Note: ADALL gives the title of that ISBN number as "Deutschlands Generale und Admirale Tl V. Bd 1. Abraham - Gutenberger" by Andreas Schulz) Please contact me on my talk page to find out what we can do about this. Do you have a source for your sentence "The truth is that a number of Walloons ..."? I do not like edit warring. Too bad you do not have an account here, by the way. --Pan Gerwazy 14:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)--Pan Gerwazy 14:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

The Full title of my source: "Deutschlands Generale und Admirale, Teil V: Die Generale der Waffen-SS und der Polizei 1933-1945", Band 1, P. 210-213. -- Postl Michi 20:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Degrelle.jpg
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WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008
Article reassessed and graded as start class. --dashiellx (talk) 19:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Death date
Date of death is march 31, check: http://www.ww2awards.com/person/8721

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/156009/Leon-Degrelle

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0214837/bio —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.248.89.72 (talk) 21:58, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Decorations and Awards
Levels, colors, and dates are mixed up for the Nahkampfspange medals: the earliest should be I. Stufe (bronze), next II. Stufe (silber), last III. Stufe (gold); opposite of the Iron Cross: 1. class is higher than 2. class.

From Wiki: "The Close Combat Bar is designed by Wilhelm Ernst Peekhaus of Berlin and it was instituted in three grades. The bronze grade (I Stufe) was awarded for 15 days close combat, the silver grade (II Stufe) for 30 days and the golden grade (III Stufe) for 50 days close combat." 141.155.26.254 (talk) 11:51, 2 November 2011 (UTC)