Talk:L.D. 50 (album)

Miscellanea?
"Many of the songs on the L.D. 50 album include clips edited intricately into them of which are brought together to create the song L.D. 50 which is featured on the The Beginning of All Things to End album, along with other clips which are not featured in other songs." lol what? i dunno who wrote this, but apparently they never heard TEOATTC "The song LD 50 featured on the beginning of TEOATTC"??? this whole part makes no sense, so i'm deleting it.69.218.199.100 01:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

This could really use some notes about themes (occult/alchemical, death/redemption), individual songs, and techniques. Unfortunately, I do not know any sources for this and fear that my notes would be "original research."71.50.30.172 00:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Cover Art
Is that supposed to be a baby on the cover? If not, what is it? Typhoid Orchid 00:41, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes it's a baby on the front. Removing magic mushrooms from the list of substances on the cover, I don't believe this is correct. Any thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.1.149.18 (talk) 00:13, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

Genre change
I went ahead and changed "Math metal" in the infobox to "Technical metal," as "Math metal" now redirects to Djent (which Mudvayne is not) and this album is pretty much the only one described as "Math metal." I kept "Technical metal" because it better captures the complexity of the album more than just Progressive metal. Takava Nirhii (talk) 05:51, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Experimental metal in the infobox perhaps? because that genre is kind of an umbrella term for genres like technical metal, math metal and djent. I call the big one bitey (talk) 07:48, 27 December 2012 (UTC)


 * This has been performed on other articles, but the infobox should only include cited material or information cited in the article. So far, the only thing cited in the article is "The musical style of L.D. 50 has been described as heavy metal[9][11][12] and alternative metal.[13][14]". No other genres are mentioned and genres that are "influences" do not count. Not much more to add. If there are no further discussions, we should keep it to the material referred to in the article. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:37, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Actually there are sources for nu metal and progressive rock which someone randomly removed a while ago, i'll try to get around to re-addding them later. I call the big one bitey (talk) 7:40, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Sure, just add them soon otherwise they should be removed. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:57, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not entirely convinced by the "future prog" citation from Spin. What does it mean? Prog metal? Prog rock? I don't think it's strong enough to just interpret what they are saying like that. If you can't find a better more specific source, I think it should be removed as it's not specific enough to what is being stated. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:54, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm still not really content with just linking to an article (or rather, a disambiguation page) for the link for progressive music. I think for this article, we should shorten it down to genres that are related the most to this article per WP:UNDUE. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:17, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Well i would be content with "alternative metal", "nu metal" and "heavy metal", but i'd really like to see progressive metal stay, since this album definitely draws from the prog genre, and there's even a source proving this, even if it may not directly call the album progressive metal. If i had to choose which one Mudvayne album sounded the most like progressive metal (a genre critics have categorized them as multiple times) then it would be this, since it's full of tempo shifts, odd time sigs, strange interludes and Tool like moments. I call the big one bitey 13:17, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not that I don't disagree that it's influenced (this doesn't sound like Papa Roach or something from the similar era), but perhaps we should include the main genres you mentioned int he infobox and leave the others in the description per WP:UNDUE. If you can find more sources for prog metal, go right ahead but the Spin one is a bit weak now and probably could be expanded upon. It's not really anyone's fault, but I find journalists often say a genre or make a wacky hybrid like Spin did when they really mean different things. Wikipedia sadly doesn't take this stuff into consideration. I'll take a stab at cleaning out the infobox. Get back to me if you think there still is problems. Andrzejbanas (talk) 13:57, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, i'm not convinced by this citation either. " yet oddly progressive in their overall musical goal." is not clear of what is claimed in the citation (namely prog metal). Andrzejbanas (talk) 11:35, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Well i'm pretty sure the ip that added that is a sock of a long term abuser who has a history of adding iffy/unreliable sources. Just looking at all the Mudvayne articles you can see him edit warring over the genre, often citing spurious sources. I call the big one bitey 11:40, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah. I thought it might've been you not signed in. :) Whups! I'll remove it for now and refer to the talk page. Thanks for clearing that up. Andrzejbanas (talk) 11:54, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

There's nothing more spurious than the sources claiming Mudvayne as nu metal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.42.92.110 (talk) 19:36, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid it's up to the sources for specific albums. The band has been described as several genres. We can't hunt and pick at the ones we find 'acceptable' or true. Please do not remove cited material, or material that's backed up by cited prose. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:07, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Listen to your own advice. The sources claiming Mudvayne as nu-metal are minimal and irrelevant. There's greater sources for progressive metal. ProgGuy (talk) 19:24, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Can you get the sources discussing this as progressive metal? Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:23, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
 * "It is still being discussed"? Really? It was a dead issue until you decided to throw a temper tantrum about it. And stop removing sources. This is not a nu metal album, it is a progressive metal album. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.96.198 (talk) 23:05, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi Anon. There was no real consensus for the genre of this album, but we do not have a source for progressive metal anywhere in the article. The Sea of Tranquility site appears to be a fan site. I'll ask WP:ALBUMS about it shortly. Do you have anything to back up Sea of Tranquility? Andrzejbanas (talk) 23:35, 10 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, there was a consensus. Stop lying. Also, Sea of Tranquility is one of the most well respected progressive rock magazines out there. 64.134.96.198 (talk) 16:56, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I've read through this page and despite consensus we still need sources to back up. We can't just choose what is or isn't' the genre.
 * For the record, the Post Bulletin article doesn't specificly discuss this album being in that genre. It states "Mudvayne, the Grammy-nominated progressive rock and metal band, is helping keep rock on a roll in Rochester." and "Mudvayne rose to fame in 2000 with the single “Dig" from the debut album “L.D. 50." Since then they’ve staked claim as one of the most creative and distinctive bands in the aggressive rock world.". We need specific sources discussing the sound and style of this album. Here we do not have them. As for Sea of Tranquility I'll make a post about it on WP:ALBUM/SOURCE to see if it should be considered a notable source or not. We still have a source for nu metal however, so we should not ignore it. Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:36, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Discussion of Sea of Tranquility can be found here. Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:38, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Just as a note, the new Revolver citation states "With ‘L.D. 50,’ Mudvayne took critical flak for their gimmicky image, but the album’s prog-rock experimentalism and virtuosic playing hold up amazingly well–even if the rapping on tracks liek “Under My Skin” binds ‘L.D. 50′ more to nu-metal than to the math-metal tag Mudvayne (now free of face paint and pseudonyms) prefer.". So it's still not calling it a prog metal album, but it is good for describing it as nu metal. Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)


 * You have one source claiming LD 50 as a nu metal album. You have MULTIPLE SOURCES saying that it is a progressive album, alternative metal and heavy metal. Also, NO, REVOLVER DOES NOT CALL THIS ALBUM NU-METAL. Stop making up claims for what the sources say when they clearly identify this as progressive metal. 64.134.96.198 (talk) 17:36, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Before removing tags that bring people attention to the talk page, please note the Revolver article is titled "10 Nu-Metal Albums You Need to Own", the entire citation itself says that "With ‘L.D. 50,’ Mudvayne took critical flak for their gimmicky image, but the album’s prog-rock experimentalism and virtuosic playing hold up amazingly well–even if the rapping on tracks liek “Under My Skin” binds ‘L.D. 50′ more to nu-metal than to the math-metal tag Mudvayne (now free of face paint and pseudonyms) prefer.". So there is no mention of progressive metal, but one describing the album as "nu-metal" and a second referring to at least one of it's tracks. [[User:Andrzejbanas|Andrzejbanas] (talk) 17:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The source is WRONG. Sea of Tranquility is an authority on progressive rock. Revolver is an industry promotional tool. Stop cherry picking sources.64.134.96.198 (talk) 18:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * If you want to take up the verifiability of Revolver, I suggest taking it up on WP:ALBUMS. Please stop removing the entire genre field until we reach some sort of conclusion here. If you have an issue with a source, tag it, but don't just remove everything until we can at least give it a fair discussion. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:19, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I have a problem with you taking Revolver at their word rather than doing the research. Their is evidence against Mudvayne ever playing "nu metal" and these sources cited claiming this album as such don't hold the weight required to bow down to their false premises. 64.134.96.198 (talk) 01:06, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * If you don't like the source, then find a better one. If you want to find more specifics for the genre, that is your burden. If you have issues with Revolver, bring it up with WP:ALBUMS as WikiProject_Albums/Sources finds it's an okay source. I'm more upset by you claiming I've added false information, and I've had to copy + paste information here for you, and after that you thought it would be better to drop genre all together. Please look for research on what people are saying, not to find the ones you want them to say. Andrzejbanas (talk) 01:22, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * This is Wikipedia. We go by what can be proven by sources. We don't go by your person opinions or conclusions. I'm pretty certain Revolver isn't the first reliable source to call them nu-metal. Please don't let your personal opinions cloud your view here. Sergecross73   msg me  01:38, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Take your own advice, Sergecross. "Don't let your personal opinions cloud your view"? How about the fact that Sea of Tranquility is an authority on progressive rock? That Mudvayne is NOT a nu-metal band? "Don't let personal opinions cloud your view"? These are FACTS. Mudvayne is not nu-metal. This album is not nu-metal. What you really are demanding is that the sources and facts aren't to cloud my personal view. Calling Mudvayne "nu-metal" is an OPINION, not a fact. Mudvayne is progressive metal - fact. Sea of Tranquility is an authority on prog music - FACT. LD 50 is not nu-metal - FACT. 64.134.96.198 (talk) 21:40, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it took me all of 2 seconds to do a search to find Rolling Stone (magazine) referring to them as nu-metal - http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/album-preview-mudvayne-reinvents-itself-says-nu-metal-will-be-back-20081023. It doesn't say this album in particular, but it's clearly referring to them, and their earlier material. I'm not suggesting it be used in this article, but rather just as something showing that it's not nearly as far-fetched as the IP is making it out to be. Sergecross73   msg me  01:42, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I've found that too. I think the Revolver articles does the trick honestly. Andrzejbanas (talk) 02:12, 13 September 2014 (UTC)


 * REVOLVER AND ROLLING STONE ARE INDUSTRY PROMOTIONAL RAGS. Sea of Tranquility is an authority on progressive rock. Nu metal should NOT be in the infobox. This is not a nu metal album. Mudvayne is a progressive band, not a nu metal band. Facts are facts. Sea of Tranquility trumps the other sources. 64.134.96.198 (talk) 21:40, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * "REVOLVER AND ROLLING STONE ARE INDUSTRY PROMOTIONAL RAGS." - Source? "Sea of Tranquility is an authority on progressive rock." - Source? "Sea of Tranquility trumps the other sources." - Source? SonOfPlisskin (talk) 22:12, 13 September 2014 (UTC)Y
 * Son of Plisskin, this is intentional baiting. You've previously called me a "troll" and revert my edits without reason, which shows that you should step away from this discussion until you can participate civilly. Multiple citations back up Sea of Tranquility's authority here:       and one of SOT's writers also writes for PopMatters:  "Jordan Blum holds an MFA in Creative Writing and is the founder/Editor-in-Chief of an online literary/multimedia journal called The Bookends Review. He specializes in progressive rock and also writes for Delusions of Adequacy, Examiner, and Sea of Tranquility" - Ergo, Sea of Tranquility is an authoritive site. 64.134.96.198 (talk) 22:58, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Also, Rolling Stone article misquotes the band. Mudvayne has not described themselves as nu-metal. 64.134.96.198 (talk) 22:59, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that asking for sources supporting such claims was completely fair on my part. And I don't that one person having an MFA and writing a lot of articles about a particular genre, automatically means that the site is "authoritative", and it still doesn't mean we ignore other sources even you claim that Sea of Tranquility is the only site ever that's driven by honest journalists with big hearts and loads of integrity. Also, I don't even know why this is being discussed here, since that review doesn't even mention that album. The quote from that is completely useless to the article and I'm getting rid of it. The Postbulletin one also doesn't mention the album's genre, but I'll leave it for until this thing has cooled down. SonOfPlisskin (talk) 00:26, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Just for the record, I went through your links Anon:
 * just is using the review to promote his material. That's not enough.
 * again, this is a blogspot account, and fails per WP:USERGENERATED.
 * appears to be a record label quoting the site for promotion, but I don't see how that helps either.
 * also just quotes it, but doesn't suggest what makes the writers at Sea of Tranquility notable.
 * appears to be a record label quoting the site. Again, just because other sites quote things, doesn't make them a great source. We don't know the relationship these things have and we can't measure any integrity because the sea of tranquility site doesn't appear to show it itself.
 * This one is just a Wordpress site, but it actually does have something vaguely useful, it says at the bottom that "Jordan Blum recently received his MFA in Fiction and he currently teaches at several colleges. Outside of that, he writes about music for Delusions of Adequacy, Examiner, Sea of Tranquility, and Popmatters." Examiner is no good, no clue about Delusions of Adequacy but Popmatters makes it a bit more promising. Maybe bring that up WP:ALBUMS if you want to help your case at all? Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:58, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Otherwise, it would be good if you actually posted the context of what you are linking to to back it up. Next time, I'm not surfing through links to find one that is decent. Because this case sounds like the one with About.com, where we may accept reviews from some readers of a site, but will ignore them otherwise if they don't come from a published source. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:58, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


 * All of tbose sources you claimed are unreliable are actually very good sources. Also, referring to Mudvayne's music as "nu-metal" is opinion and not supported by the sources. 63.155.164.33 (talk) 04:20, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Can you explain how major sources in the music world, like Rolling Stone (magazine) or Revolver (magazine) are not qualified to deem them nu metal and then reconcile that argument with Wikipedia's definition of a reliable source? Sergecross73   msg me  18:57, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Pretty much what serge said. You can just keep saying "uhh it's not good actually", but you fail to back it up. I'm considering this behaviour as a vandal, expect your edits reverted unless you actually want to explain why they are good quality sources. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:23, 27 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The categorization of nu metal is inconsistent with the style of music being played on the album as defined by the sources. Why not have alternative metal since the majority of sources list that? 63.155.164.33 (talk) 07:15, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * That response is your own personal observation on genre, which isn't useable, and conpletely dodges my question. Sergecross73   msg me  10:47, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No, it isn't. I'm addressing the sources, which you aren't. 63.155.164.33 (talk) 14:37, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Genres and sources
To avoid debate, let's go with heavy metal, considering that the most number of sources cited in this article describe the album as this. Also, Melody Maker, which was contested as a source since there's no link to read their review of the album, was used as the sole citation for progressive metal and nu metal has been removed, along with references to the album being progressive metal or nu metal. There - now the article reflects the sources. Stop complaining. 63.155.164.33 (talk) 08:26, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Do not remove items that are tagged. We are to assume good faith when additions like the Melody maker article are added. If we don't have a page number, it will be added once it can be found. Until then, I'm restoring that section. Andrzejbanas (talk) 11:55, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with heavy metal's use, but that's not a reason to discount other sources. As I stated in the section above, we've got two very prominent reliable sources calling them nu metal, and no valid reason given for discounting them. I'm going to add that too unless valid reason is given against their use. (Personal claims that its false is not a valid reason.) Sergecross73   msg me  13:40, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No, we don't. Most of them don't say exactly that the album is nu-metal. Revolver is questionable (see below) and descriptions of the band, not the album being "like nu-metal" without exactly describing them as nu-metal don't make for L.D. 50 being called a nu-metal album, especially when examples of the album clearly being identified as progressive rock are dismissed for the same reasoning, despite actually calling the album prog, unlike the nu-metal sources which tiptoe around the categorization, and it conflicts with the description of the music, other than a Revolver blog (which may be a questionable source) describing some vocals as being "liek rapping". 63.155.164.33 (talk) 14:33, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * As I've said below, Revolver is a useable source, but also, there's also the Rolling Stone article, where it appears both the Rolling Stone writer and a band member refer to the band as nu-metal. Sergecross73   msg me  15:27, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I've discussed this before -- it's a misquoting. Stop being contentious for the sake of being contentious. Mudvayne is not a nu-metal band. Evidence contradicts opinion. 63.155.164.33 (talk) 19:48, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Please assume good faith. I'm informing you of the websites stance on source reliability, and their content. Nothing more. Sergecross73   msg me  20:01, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Revolver
I have some serious reservations about this citation. There isn't any information about the Revolver company, other than it being owned by NewBay Media. Moreover, I'm not sure if the writer is a staff member of the site, paid as an employee, or if this is part of a fan blog, since there's a spelling error of "like" as "liek". 63.155.164.33 (talk) 14:29, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Sources tied to a hard copy magazine, like Revolver (magazine) or Rolling Stone (magazine) are almost considered reliable, because what it takes to create a product that is nationally published. There's a strong consensus that its a usable source in music articles. There's no indication that this list was created by a blogger. Its posted in a news section, not any sort of blog section. Sergecross73   msg me  15:00, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Is it really, because I haven't seen any evidence that this wasn't a fan post. Many websites of this sort have sections where readers can sign up for an account and post blogs on the site that are not connected to the paid staff. Plus, professional copyediting would have caught the word "liek". A basic spell checker would have caught the word "liek". 63.155.164.33 (talk) 15:09, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The typo is surprising, I do admit, but quite the opposite, I don't see any evidence of Revolver having a user-blog section where random bloggers submit stories. Do you? If not, then a minor typo like this hardly discounts the source as a whole. Sergecross73   msg me  15:23, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Typo is weird, but happens. The author has written other articles with Revolver, as well as Alternative Press. Not that this source should be taken as a realistic wiki source, but his linkedin profile states, he has been a journalist from 1996 to 2013 "specializing in music, video games, new products, and modern parenting, I’ve had 2,000+ credits in major media outlets such as SPIN, Rolling Stone, Disney’s Babble.com, The Onion A.V. Club, Blender, eMusic, Revolver, Guitar World, Alternative Press, and the Phoenix New Times.". Good enough for me. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:06, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Quick google search also shows his work with Spin. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:08, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Good searching. Yeah, that's all more than enough to be considered usable/reliable. Sergecross73   msg me  16:52, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It's an opinion, but it still conflicts with evidence. Stylus magazine calls Rammstein a nu metal band here, so should we ignore all the conflicting evidence and label Rammstein as nu metal? 63.155.164.33 (talk) 19:47, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * This isn't a court case, where "evidence" points to "one true answer" on who murdered someone or something. Its a subjective thing. So we go by what sources say. Multiple reliable sources say its nu metal. I'm sorry you disagree, but the word of reliable sources trumps editors personal opinions. It's not like we need to limit the genre we use. There's no limit is space. It can be added in there right along metal and prog just fine. Sergecross73   msg me  19:59, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * If you ignore the evidence and go by random whim rather than the sources against nu-metal, you cannot possibly be operating on good faith. Reliable sources DO trump your opinion. You can't pick and choose which sources you like -- look at the overall picture, which clearly goes against your opinion. 63.155.164.33 (talk) 20:02, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * That argument only makes sense if I was trying to say they were only nu metal, and nothing else. I'm not trying to replace all their genre and just have "nu metal". I'm saying its one of many genre. Multiple reliable third party music sources state it clearly. Sergecross73   msg me  20:10, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Other genres shouldn't be ignored, but like most things, genre is subjective, it's open to interpretation and it's not written in stone. Nu-metal has a good chunk of sources here, but we're of course accepting of other views here too. Just dig them up from good sources. Andrzejbanas (talk) 01:10, 31 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Stop adding nu metal. The sources calling Mudvayne nu metal are fringe opinions. there are more sources for Mudvayne being a prog band. 71.215.181.115 (talk) 22:23, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * No, they are not fringe, they are given by some of the most mainstream sources available - Rolling Stone and Revolver magazines. There are multiple reliable sources that support it, do not remove unless theres a consensus to remove.  Sergecross73   msg me  22:33, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * There is a consensus to remove it. You're pushing an opinion because it suits your needs when the sources don't support it. This is not a nu-metal album. Mudvayne is not a nu-metal band. Wikipedia is not your personal blog. 71.215.181.115 (talk) 22:38, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure where this consensus is supposed to be. The only other person supporting its removal is another IP that is personally against the genre, and has no valid counterpoint to the fact that there are multiple reliable sources directly and literally supporting it. The other IP also said that the sources don't support it, when they clearly do, which makes me pretty certain that this is just 1 person writing from 2 different IPs. Both the writer and the band refer to the band as nu-metal here, and this article directly lists this album in particular as a nu-metal album. I have no idea why you'd try to reprimand me about this "not being my blog" - I haven't contributed to this article at all other than to re-add sourced info being removed for an invalid reason. the sources obviously and directly support the content. It seems you cannot separate your personal opinions from what sources say, which unfortunately for your stance, is not how Wikipedia works.  Sergecross73   msg me  22:46, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The sources do not support the genre. You are the one who needs to separate his personal opinion from the sources. Mudvayne is not a nu metal band, and L.D. 50 is obviously not a nu metal album. The lad searches the night for his newts (talk) 22:56, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * See comment above. Can you explain how exactly the source doesn't back the content? You and this IP keep saying this, but it doesn't make sense. How so? Sergecross73   msg me  23:03, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Per your recent edits, both sources are considered notable from WikiProject Albums/Sources. If you have issues, I'd bring it up with them. Otherwise, your edits will be considered vandalism. Andrzejbanas (talk) 00:58, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Progressive metal
It's pretty clear that this album is progressive metal. Why fight the sources? --68.185.2.134 (talk) 20:50, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You need to find more reliable sources, not these obscure blogs. See WP:RS to see how Wikipedia defines reliable, see WP:ALBUM/SOURCES for some examples of commonly accepted sources. Sergecross73   msg me  21:48, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Horndog Studios is not a blog, it is a corporation. --68.185.2.134 (talk) 22:39, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * It appears to be a comic book company either way. Why are you using a source that self-publishes comics as a serious source for a music genre? Andrzejbanas (talk) 01:03, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Regardless, they are not an authority on music genre. They do not meet WP:RS. Sergecross73   msg me  01:04, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Andrzejbanas, It's not self-publishing. It's a corporation. They predominately publish other people's content. The founder makes some videos and comics for the company, but they mostly put out other people's content. 68.185.2.134 (talk) 01:23, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Sergecross73, How is a progressive rock musician not an authority on progressive rock? 68.185.2.134 (talk) 01:25, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You are ignoring my points. Even if this comic book group was Marvel or Dark Horse or something, that would hardly make them strong sources to comment on something like music genre. Nothing on their page indicates that they have the qualifications or respect or information to be writing about music seriously. Have the writers worked for other music media outputs? What is their background in that area? Find a better source, or take it up with WP:ALBUMS. Also, don't add projects or the genre again until we reach a conclusion. Andrzejbanas (talk) 01:33, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Because they don't meet Wikipedia's definition of a reliable source. There's many things to check for. Does the source have an established set of editors/staff? What are there credentials for writing? Have the written for other, more mainstream sites? Does the website have an editorial policy? Editorial staff? History of fact checking? You need to make a better case for using this source other than "They're prog musicians, they'd know." Sergecross73   msg me  14:44, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, they have an editorial staff and policy. They don't just publish anything. They're very selective in what they publish. 68.185.2.134 (talk) 22:05, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You see, you aren't showing proof for this information. And you seem to be ignoring our comments about this site is a) not about music. and b) nothing on the site suggests it should be used a s a high quality source for music articles. It is your Burden to find a source that is appropriate and currently what you are saying about how they don't publish anything or are very selective is not backed up by research and is against WP:OR. Unless you have new content to show us, or have specific information regarding the site, I don't think this conversation can continue as you are ignoring our statements, and repeating yourself without showing us where you are getting this information. Andrzejbanas (talk) 00:02, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You seem to be going through all these albums and adding/removing genres based on an agenda. Stop that. JuggaloProghead (talk) 00:10, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * This is clearly a progressive metal album. Look at the sources. 74.32.173.236 (talk) 23:27, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Please read the proceeding comments, which explain the requirement of having a source. Sergecross73   msg me  00:43, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Please stop removing progressive rock. It has a source. Please stop dismissing sources because you don't agree with them. 74.42.44.222 (talk) 21:45, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Who are you talking to? No ones removed it for that reason. People removed progressive metal because the sources provided were not reliable. Sergecross73   msg me  23:58, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

- I'm confused. Who are you accusing of what agenda? Sergecross73  msg me  03:04, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The agenda of pushing nu metal when the sources clearly say progressive. Are you fucking dense? 74.42.44.222 (talk) 22:04, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
 * What kind of "agenda" is that? What would the motivation of such a thing be? Is the Nu Metal Association of America going to pay me every time I add it as source? There's no agenda, it's just following what sources say. Many call it nu metal. Sergecross73   msg me  22:21, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Progressive rock

 * I'm tired of going around in circles with a group of people who claim that Andzejbanas doesn't have an agenda despite removing sources to fit his own opinion. I have to go look for sources on the genres of Uriah Heep (band) - if the sources end up saying that U.H. is a heavy metal band rather than a progressive rock band and I have to change the articles to reflect the sources, I don't want to see any of you changing it back after I make my edits. Just find something better to do than argue about albums that are at least 10 or more years old. I don't care how convinced you are of your opinions - if the sources predominately describe an album by The Clash as a reggae album, that's what we go with. Even if it's agreed that the Clash are a punk band. Same way in that it's agreed that Mudvayne and Uriah Heep play progressive rock, not every album by either group is progressive rock, but if the sources describe an album that way, that's what we go with, not "IT'S OBVIOUSLY NU-METAL". Just stop. Please. JuggaloProghead (talk) 20:30, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm puzzled by this edit and edit summary by you here. You claim that the source is calling the band, not the album, "nu-metal" drivel, but that doesn't make sense, one, because, its an album review, why would they be talking about an aspect of the band that isn't relevant to the respective album, and two, if you look at the sentence that refers to nu-metal, there's no reason to think its in reference to just the band. The direct quote is Despite titles like "Internal Primates Forever," "-1, Nothing To Gein," "Pharmaecopia" and "(K)Now F(orever)" nothing can improve this pathetic nu-metal drivel.  There's no subject or pronoun that references the band at all. The article just says "this" after listing off a ton of song titles from the album. There's nothing to suggest they meant the band and not the album. Sergecross73   msg me  20:56, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The sources don't justify the genre's inclusion in the Infobox. Besides, there's only two sources and far more for prog. JuggaloProghead (talk) 23:13, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * That is a cop-out answer. Completely invalid. If a reliable source says it, and that's all the explanation you have, then you are completely in the wrong for removing it. Sergecross73   msg me  23:59, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * We've gone through these sources before, NME is not specific, Spin says Future-prog which could mean anything so we can't interpret it, and the Revolver source is talking about the certain parts of the album calling them prog like. There is no doubt in my mind this band digs prog, but we don't have a real source calling them a prog band. The Modern Drummer review really needs a quote as neither you or I can read that page. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:08, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Prog is shorthand for progressive rock. Stop nitpicking. Also, there are numerous sources describing them as a prog band, and the sources you've tagged do identify this as a progressive rock album. Now stop taking me away from my research into Uriah Heep. Not in the mood for continued shenanigans. JuggaloProghead (talk) 21:12, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * My issue isn't that they are saying "prog", it's that they don't say the album belongs to the genre. They say things like "future-prog" which you haven't told me what that means and we can't just change what they said either. If you want to keep your edits, then deal with the situation. Otherwise, they will be removed. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:32, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, they are saying that the album belongs to the genre. You're being ridiculous. How does describing the album as having a prog sound -- which is shorthand for progressive rock, not classify the music as progressive rock? What in all manner of fuck constitutes a source then? Does every source for Rush have to say PROGRESSIVE ROCK BAND, PROGRESSIVE ROCK ALBUM? Shorthand isn't conclusive enough for you? You don't know what "prog" means? Prog redirects to progressive rock, ergo, the sources are classifying the album as progressive rock. And how the hell does describing the album as having a prog or progressive sound equal describing progressive rock as an influence? Your edits don't make any sense. NME is very specific, future prog equals progressive rock, and Revolver directly describes the album as progressive rock. Modern Drummer also calls the album a "thinking man's prog" album. JuggaloProghead (talk) 23:13, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * "Does every Rush album have to have a source?" Yes they do. For someone not familiar with the group, it's not obvious to them. Andrzejbanas (talk) 03:40, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Incidentally, I very strongly feel that Uriah Heep is a progressive rock band. That's not what the sources say, so I had to change it against my own opinion. So whether you think Mudvayne is nu-metal is irrelevant. You could try heavy metal as a generalized classification, but there's significant sources for progressive rock. JuggaloProghead (talk) 23:16, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Except there aren't. I've brought up several times that these sources are vague, non-specific and one neither your or I can see the prose and the others don't claim what you are saying and you re-interpret it. You have to match the source, not say "future prog? yeah that's prog rock, it's definately not neo-prog or progressive metal" or any other genre. Unless you address the points I'm giving, I'll assume your next edits like this are not being made in good faith. Andrzejbanas (talk) 03:39, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Look at Prog. What is the redirect to? Progressive rock. Ergo, the source is calling it a progressive rock album. Why do I have to explain this repeatedly? Why can't you accept what the sources say? JuggaloProghead (talk) 19:50, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I completely agree. "Future-prog" could refer to any of the variations of progressive music. This source is not good enough to prove "progressive rock", and "Future-prog" isn't a real genre, so this source isn't really usable. Sergecross73   msg me  12:17, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Look at Prog. What does it redirect to? Progressive rock. End of story. JuggaloProghead (talk) 19:50, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Ditto. A good example of extraneous genre naming that doesn't match actual terms can be seen on the article I worked on about Glass Swords by Rustie. Take a gander at all the "genres" that are listed. Listing them all in the infobox would not help anyone, not matter if it had 1, 5 or 50 citations behind it. The better the prose and detail a source goes into describing a genre the more prominence it should have. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Except this isn't an album that has a million genres cited for it, this is an album that has several sources for heavy metal and several sources for progressive rock. JuggaloProghead (talk) 19:50, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Additionally, the last consensus was that nu metal was applicable, because 2 very reliable sources (Revolver (magazine) and Rolling Stone (magazine)) stated it as such. Please read WP:CONSENSUS and WP:NOCONSENSUS - if there is no consensus for removal, then it is not removed. Unless there is a consensus for removal, according to policy, it belongs in the article. Sergecross73   msg me  12:50, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Except that Revolver doesn't explicitly state the album as nu-metal. Where's the Rolling Stone source? And what the hell does user consensus have to do with what the sources actually say? Why does it make sense to keep removing progressive rock despite the sources justifying it, but going with less definitive sources for another genre? JuggaloProghead (talk) 19:50, 28 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm tired of the shenanigans. STOP REMOVING THE PROGRESSIVE ROCK SOURCES. They verify what is cited. End of story. JuggaloProghead (talk) 19:54, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, stop being so antagonistic towards me. I'm only asking that you work with the sources instead of against them. JuggaloProghead (talk) 20:10, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * On that note, just how closely are you checking your sources. I mean, come on, the Revolver article here is literally titled "10 Nu Metal Albums You Need to Own", and LD 50 is on the list. It doesn't get any more direct than that. Slow down and actually read all of the sources presented. Sergecross73   msg me  23:28, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * How closely are you checking the sources? You have to actually read the articles, not just the title. JuggaloProghead (talk) 23:29, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, please stop removing sources instead of discussing. That is vandalism. JuggaloProghead (talk) 23:31, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Alright, if you don't start explaining yourself, you're blocked. You haven't answered a single question, you just throwing baseless accusations. Look at the page history. I haven't removed a source. I haven't even edited the page since you've come and started making your bogus edits. My last edit to the article was last June, to protect the page from vandalism/poorly sourced edits. Sergecross73   msg me  23:36, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * They are NOT "baseless" accusations - they are facts. And if you have a problem with facts, you lack a basic understanding of what an encyclopedia is. An encyclopedia is supposed to be an objective summary of facts and hard information -- not Andrzejbanas' sandbox for vandalism. Andrzejbanas is pushing the poorly sourced edits and you are protecting him to keep the poorly sourced edits because they fit your bias. I have better things to do than listen to this crap. If either of you want to stop behaving like children and accept the sources, come talk to me, otherwise reconsider your path in life. JuggaloProghead (talk) 20:30, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * They do not because they don't explicitly state what you want them to say. Can you explain how you are not breaking the rules WP:STICKTOSOURCE which states " each statement in the article attributable to a source that makes that statement explicitly. Source material should be carefully summarized or rephrased without changing its meaning or implication.", saying "future-prog" means prog rock is very much against this rule, ditto with the others which don't explicitly discuss how the album fits the genre you want. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:05, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Andrzejbanas, do you even pay attention to my edits at all? My edits work with the sources, not against them. I don't "want" any genre. Prog redirects to progressive rock. Until you stop being an idiot and understand how sources work, you should cease from editing. The sources clearly back up progressive rock's inclusion. JuggaloProghead (talk) 20:30, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I removed the sources which were tagged with Template:Notinsource, because the infobox looked like this. Should we really include the sources tagged like this until a conclusion on the talk page is reached? (Note that stuff like "future-prog" and "prog-rock experimentalism" were deemed vague in previous discussions.) Myxomatosis57 (talk) 16:09, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It's not vague at all. Prog redirects to progressive rock, and the sources clearly identify the album as progressive rock. JuggaloProghead (talk) 20:30, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think Andr just added the tags on an attempt to not edit war, which was good on him. But in actuality, you are correct, the last consensus was that those sources, and per WP:NOCONSENSUS, it shouldn't be changed until a new consensus to add is formed, which certainly has not happened. So you did the right thing. Sergecross73   msg me  16:19, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * TWO PEOPLE IS NOT A CONSENSUS. First rule of sourcing: The source has to state that the album or band is a "[genre] album/band" or for the album/band to have a "[genre] sound" for it to count. And Andr was clearly removing sources that identify the album as progressive rock. JuggaloProghead (talk) 20:30, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter how many people were there to figure out a consensus as not all articles are going to get that amount of traffic. I believe I went around and asked various groups projects for opinions, and as many people came. You keep suggesting these rules, and I've read your articles (and quoted them) several time. You need a more specific source. Just because you find the term "prog" in an article, doesn't mean it gets the okay. It's not strong enough because it either a) doesn't talk about the albums style as a whole or b) do not specifically state the genre. Spin said "future prog", should I add the following genres "Post-dubstep, Tropical house, Sci-fi trance, and Ecstatic techno" to the article for Glass Swords or can I just pick and choose what the author wanted? No, I have to find a specific source. Two other users here do not seem to have trouble understanding this. The only person stumped by it is you. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:43, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

JuggaloProghead preferred sources appear to be Revolver, NME, Spin and Modern Drummer. None of these are good enough to call the album prog rock or prog metal. The NME quote is ridiculous ("Think prog-rock bollocks, baby!") to use as a reason to categorize the album as prog rock. JuggaloProghead has misrepresented the Modern Drummer piece, quoting only a portion to give the wrong impression. The quote is not about the album as claimed ("thinking man's prog"), but about the band King Crimson who are reviewed on the same page ("These newly remastered early '70s recordings show that King Crimson, beyond their rep as brilliant, thinking-man's prog-rockers, were remarkably creative and original, and have not been matched in rock circles..."). Apparently Google Books' snippet view has led astray our genre-warring friend. I'm going in to correct the problem, removing all prog from the infobox, and all misrepresented sources from the article body. Binksternet (talk) 05:55, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * You're obviously making the wrong decision. Prog is well sourced, and you're contributing to the destruction of Wikipedia's credibility. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.86.186.171 (talk) 20:56, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Please provide sources that prove progressive rock. The current consensus is that the ones presented so far were not good enough. Sergecross73   msg me  21:40, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
 * WHY ARE YOU IGNORING THE SOURCES WHEN THE SOURCES CLEARLY SAY PROG??? AND THE "NU METAL" SOURCES AREN'T GOOD ENOUGH. YOU'RE PUSHING YOUR AGENDA INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON THE FACTS. 74.42.44.222 (talk) 22:03, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Your comment already outlines the issue. The sources say prog. Not prog rock. Not all prog music is prog rock. I don't recall for sure, because you're reviving a discussion over a year old, but most sources didn't say prog rock. Sergecross73   msg me  22:24, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on L.D. 50 (album). Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20081012051208/http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2003/04/04-09-03tdc/04-09-03darts-02.asp to http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2003/04/04-09-03tdc/04-09-03darts-02.asp

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 03:42, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Influences VS. Inspiration
Are they the same? There's a part in the second body paragraph that has a problem. If these two words have the same essential meaning, I think we have a contradiction problem, because Obituary is CLEARLY metal. If they're different, clarify that for me.  danny music editor  Speak up! 20:14, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Looking at the source, (here) its from 2003, and honestly, seems to be about The End of All Things to Come. In fact, unless I'm missing it, L.D. 50 isn't mentioned at all. The source is also used to source a few of the band's they mentioned as inspirations - like Porcupine Tree. It looks like anything sourced to this reference should be removed from this article altogether. That would fix the contradiction too. Sergecross73   msg me  20:28, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Consensus?
Facts are not a democracy. There is no evidence of Mudvayne being a nu-metal band or of this album belonging to the genre. 68.185.2.34 (talk) 19:49, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? There are several sources present in the article's infobox right now that cite it. I'm pretty sure there were more presented in discussions above too. EDIT: Yes, just as I thought. Rolling Stone calls the band nu-metal, while Revolver magazine and Exclaim call the album nu metal. All three are considered reliable/usable sources on Wikipedia per consensus at WP:MUSIC/SOURCES. Sergecross73   msg me  20:00, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Evidence contradicts the sources. Technical playing and mixing progressive rock/jazz with metal is called "progressive metal". Nu metal is where rhythmic playing is combined with hip-hop, grunge and groove metal. Can you show me this consensus you're talking about? Scientific consensus is where the facts point to a provable truth. And what users of Wikipedia THINK is the truth doesn't equate to truth. There could be a huge amount of sources saying that the Earth is flat. That doesn't make the Earth flat. 68.185.2.34 (talk) 20:37, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia goes by what reliable sources say. That's websites like the ones listed above. Many reliable sources directly call the band and album nu metal.
 * Wikipedia does not allow for original research, which perfectly describes your stance. Editors are not allowed to synthesize various ideas together with their subjective observations in order to formulate an idea.
 * Please read WP:VNT - we don't argue about perceived truths, we go by what sources say.
 * So, the short version is, on Wikipedia, we don't write about how editors (you or me) perceive the music, we write according to how sources classify the music. We've got multiple reliable sources directly stating the genre, and we've got your argument, which revolves around your personal views of how "technical" or "rhythmic" the music is. We go by sources every time, which is why nu metal is used. Similarly, the reason progressive rock isn't used is because no one has been able to provide a reliable source that directly states "L.D. 50 is progressive rock". Sergecross73   msg me  20:57, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Sources won't ever make the Earth flat. 74.42.44.222 (talk) 20:34, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:VNT. And even disregarding that, thats not a good comparison. The shape of the Earth is an objective fact. Applying genre classification is extremely subjective. Not the same at all. Sergecross73   msg me  17:54, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The difference between nu metal and progressive rock IS objective fact. 74.42.44.222 (talk) 20:13, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * But we're not talking about music genre definitions though, we're discussing the application of a genre to an album of music. You listening to music and coming to a conclusion on what genre it is based on your own observation is subjective. You taking your knowledge of a genre, and your knowledge of a band's music, and combining that knowledge to apply a genre label to the music is subjective. It's a clear cut case of original research, which is not allowed on Wikipedia. Sergecross73   msg me  20:32, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

There can't be a consensus because consensus means that everybody agrees. So since there is disagreement about the genres, why not just remove the genre sections from the biography and albums and it will stop discussions like this? 74.42.44.222 (talk) 20:34, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually, consensus is possible despite disagreement from a few people with outlier viewpoints. The nu metal genre is widely connected to Mudvayne in reliable sources, so that's why we list it. Binksternet (talk) 23:29, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * How is it on here when there's no consensus for it to be on there? 74.42.44.222 (talk) 20:13, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Consensus is not the same as voting. Consensus (on Wikipedia) discounts invalid arguments. Arguments in favor of nu metal include reliable sources directly stating it. Every single argument on this talk page against nu metal has violated Wikipedia's original research policy. It's also hard to discount a genre once you've found multiple reliable sources that support. You could find 100 sources that say "progressive rock", and while that would warrant adding progressive rock, it wouldn't necessarily warrant removing nu metal - it could hypothetically be both. Sergecross73   msg me  20:39, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I think you're confusing the word unanimous with the word consensus. How Wikipedia defines consensus does not require "everybody to agree". Sergecross73   msg me  04:32, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Do you also need a consensus that the moon landing happened, JFK was assassinated, and that the Earth is round? 68.185.2.34 (talk) 18:27, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
 * If there was a good-faith dispute, sure. Sergecross73   msg me  18:33, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
 * In case he tries to argue further, I'd define what a "good-faith dispute is" here.  danny music editor  Speak up! 18:36, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I'd also point out the comparable arguments stating that "so if this happens, can this be the case toO!?!?" are kind of Straw man arguments. Genre for the most part is going to be in the eye of the beholder and labels like genres are mostly useful or music journalism and your own personal tastes. If we really wanted to get specific, we'd state "the NME listed the album as one of the best nu metal" or whatever is happening here. At this point though, even if there was a source for prog, it'd have to be a pretty strong one because it seems like an Outlier at the moment. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:02, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I'll give more detailed answers if I get questions from someone who actually cares to listen, but I kinda had the feeling that this was just the same guy who's been playing games for the last couple years and doesn't particularly seem interested in following policies whether they're explained or not. Thank you both for your continued assistance though. Sergecross73   msg me  19:53, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
 * CONSENSUS SAYS PROG-ROCK/PROG-METAL, IDIOT. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.42.44.222 (talk) 21:07, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on L.D. 50 (album). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20040822061147/http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/showreview.aspx?reviewID=13 to http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/showreview.aspx?reviewID=13

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 06:23, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Another nu metal source
Stumbled across a new source in my newsfeed today. Another very reliable source, Kerrang, clearly and directly calls it nu metal. Just in case that disruptive editor ever returns... Sergecross73  msg me  20:46, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Oops, I used another website originally because it was only in the Kerrang magazine. It’s on the Kerrang website too, here. Sergecross73   msg me  21:10, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

Recording timeframe
An IP keeps adding "December 1999 – April 2000" and I keep removing it because it's unsourced. Is there any source for this? Sergecross73  msg me  01:08, 1 December 2022 (UTC)