Talk:LAPA Flight 3142

Siniestrada
This word repeats several times and I wanted someone to tell me the correct translation of it so we keep consistant. Thanks. Gadig 14:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think there's a good direct translation for Siniestrado, Siniestro on the other hand has a couple of good ones.
 * Siniestrado
 * fateful airplane
 * accidented plane


 * Siniestro
 * disaster
 * catastrophe


 * There might be other options. Mariano (t/c) 15:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Doomed, ill-fated, unfortunate. However, in some or all of the places where it's used in this article, it could be left out with no loss of information. We already know the plane in question was in an accident. Rodney Boyd 16:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Disaster and catastrophe both have direct equivalents in Spanish. I would suggest using one of them for the title (I prefer disaster, in this case) on the sub-heading, and then omitting it throughout the rest of the article, unless particularly necessary in some circumstance.  Terms like fateful seem overly dramatic for an encyclopaediac entry.Gershonw 22:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Tough translation, made tougher because it's a section heading. In addition to ya'lls suggestions, I see siniestrado also used as a synonym of "wrecked" like el vehículo siniestrado, but "wreck" isn't a strong enough word in English to describe what happened to the plane. In the Spanish article, it's used more in the sense of The aircraft that was destined to be destroyed, but that's too verbose for a section heading. Since we're sure to fail to find an exact translation, I would actually suggest a different title entirely, one based on the actual content of the section, like Service history - Draeco 15:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi, That is quite sensible in my opinion. When there is no ambiguity about which plane is being talked about, I see no problem with omitting the word. And short titles are better anyway. Regards, Rodney Boyd 16:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Despachante
Anyone knows what the heck is a es:Despachante de aeronaves? What about Comisario de a bordo? Thnx.Mariano (t/c) 10:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The article's description is...confusing. The dictionary defines despachante as customs officer, and I was getting the sense of maybe mission control or something of the sort?  Gershonw 13:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Customs Officer is a "Despachante de Aduana". Despachante by itself means nothing, though it is usually used for Customs. Despachar means a lot of things, among them: dispatch, expedite, conclude and resolve. Perhaps we should ask for help at some WikiProject related to aviation... Mariano (t/c) 14:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good idea. Oh, and by mission control, I meant traffic control ;-) Gershonw 14:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I would guess despachante is an anglicism of dispatcher (like many aviation terms), and that article has a "see also" link to air traffic controller. It should be the former, but I'll ask a Latino today. - Draeco 15:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * My Latino co-workers concur, air traffic controller. - Draeco 01:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Excuseme, I am the original writer of the Spanish article. In Spanish "el despachante" is the person that is in charge of the plane loading, distribution of load into the plane (people also), and the person in ground that signs the authorization for the departure of the plane. The text says "Según el despachante, al Comandante se lo veía muy bien y tan enérgico como de costumbre, al Copiloto también se lo veía bien. El Copiloto, la Comisario y las Auxiliares de a Bordo arribaron al avión en primer lugar." The "despachante" is an employee of the airline or the ground handling compañy, it is present in all flights. But I'm pretty sure it is not a customs officer nor an Air traffic controller, please note that HE declared that he SAW the pilot. Barcex 09:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, it is "Aicraft dispatcher" the correct translation, see http://www.flightcontrolacademy.com/dispatch.htm Barcex 09:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Just a comment about the word etymology, despachante comes from the verb despachar and this from the ancient French despeechier. What is interesting is that M-W dictionary says that the English word "dispatcher" comes from the Spanish despachar or the Italian dispacciare, and these from the French word. So, it is not an anglicism. Barcex 09:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * :o) Mariano (t/c) 11:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that te correct translation is "FLIGHT DISPATCHER" or "FLIGHT OPERATIONS OFFICER". That's all! Mariano —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.89.161.35 (talk • contribs)

Cockpit conversation
I noticed the original transcript included both English and Spanish. Should we include which parts were translated and which not? I don't know anything about it, but it seems interesting that someone would have been speaking English on an Argentine flight radio... Gershonw 16:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it would be a good idea to note which pieces of dialogue were originally English, as opposed to translations, yes. -Fsotrain09 17:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * English is the official language for radio communication between airplanes and control towers. Plus, the controls on the plane are probably in English, so the pilot was actually just reading them. I would use another format for the in English, say with like this1? Mariano (t/c) 06:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * In English in the original.
 * We could use, but that's not the purpose of the icon, plus it's unlovely. I vote for Mariano's suggestion, with the footnote at the end of the section. - Draeco 15:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * In a short text such as this, a footnote may be overkill. I think the way it stands is actually ok. Regards, Rodney Boyd 16:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I would like to correct the statement that English is the official language. This is a popular misconception. English is merely the common language. Aviation airwaves are full of other languages. A Spanish speaking pilot and a Spanish speaking controller can use Spanish, officially. bobblewik 22:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

El intento de rotación -- translation?
Does this refer to the rotation of the engines, i.e. "turning over" the engine? Gershonw 02:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Could you put it in context? - Draeco 05:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * "Falta de disciplina de los tripulantes, que no ejecutaron la lógica reacción de abortar el despegue y de comprobar la falla ante la alarma sonora que comenzó a escucharse al dar motor, y continuó sonando hasta el intento de rotación."


 * Probably it refers to the rotatoin of the engines. I left a message at the talk page of the original Spanish language article hoping someone will stop by to clearify some points. Mariano (t/c) 07:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Again me ;) In this case "rotate" is to pull-down the aircraft controls in order to take off. The rotation time is the moment when the aircraft raises it's nose to depart. So what the text means is that the alarm beeped from the moment in which the pilot gave power to the engines (to start running) (in spanish "dar motor" means give power to the engines in order to start running) beeping until the moment in which htey tried to rotate (intento de rotación). In short, the text says that the pilots have not aborted the take off, which would have been the logic reaction to an alarm that beeped so much time (from the moment they applied power to the engines, till the moment they tried to rotate). Excuse my poor english, I hope this helps to clarify the concepts so you can make a good translation. Barcex 09:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Great, we were way off! Thanks for your help, and be ready for more questions. Mariano (t/c) 11:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I advise you to read the Takeoff article, because it introduces many concepts related to the take off that could help you with the termilology of the translation. Barcex 11:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Borde de ataque
Here is another phrase that I am not sure what it means. Here is the context: "También se hizo un estudio especial sobre los filamentos de las lámparas pertenecientes a los indicadores de flaps de borde de ataque." I also saw it elsewhere. Gadig 13:09, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * "Flaps de borde de ataque" are commonly known in English as slats (in this article you have a good picture that shows what flaps and slats are). The phrase means than an special study was conducted on the filaments of lights (in the cockipt panels) indicating if the flaps/slats are extended or not. Why this study? Because if the lights are on when the plane crashes, the shock breaks the filaments (like if you shake a light bulb while turned on) but if the lights are off, the filaments are expected not to suffer any damage. That helps the investigators to determine if the light was on or off at the moment of the crash, then knowing if the flaps/slats where extended or not at that time. Barcex 14:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC) PS: It was quite importat to know if the flaps/slats were extended or not in this accident, in fact, the primary cause for the accident was that the pilots forgot to extend the flaps and the plane was not able to take-off.


 * Wow, thanks for the explanation. You seem to be very familiar with the subject. Are you a pilot or something? :) Gadig 14:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No, just aficionado to aircraft technology. I'm IT engineer. Barcex 15:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

More
Excuse my Engrish. someone should clean up the slopy translation I left. Some more doubts:


 * reversores de empuje (reverse thrust diverters?)
 * tornillos sinfín

Mariano (t/c) 10:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Reversores de empuje = Thrust reversers, see: reverse thrust

I don't know the translation of "tornillo sinfín", it is not an aeronautical but a mechanical term. Barcex 21:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I found it, "tornillo sinfin" means "worm gear", see  and  Barcex 22:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

cleanup
I just realised I wasn't logged in for the cleanup edits I just made. If anyone has any suggestions or wants to get back to me, please do through my talk page. Thanks! --GoAround 20:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Estrago culposo
My legal terminology is weak... does anyone know the translation for the charge of estrago culposo seguido de muerte as it is used in the first line of LAPA flight 3142? Thanks - Draeco 20:18, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * There's somethig in Criminal negligence, but I'm not sure. Estrago in this case is catastrophe. "Negligent catastrophe followed by death"?. Mariano (t/c) 10:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Criminal negligence sounds good, even though it doesn't include the "catastrophe" part of the charge. We could say "criminal negligence resulting in death/manslaughter;" that is pretty bulky, but so is the original term in Spanish.- Draeco 21:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * "catastrophic criminal negligence leading to death"? - Jmabel | Talk 00:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know about law terminology, I know that culposo means negligent (i.e. homicidio culposo = negligent homicide)
 * The penal law says, under the title: Delitos contra la seguridad pública (crimes against public security):
 * Art. 189.- Será reprimido con prisión de un mes a un año, el que, por imprudencia o negligencia, por impericia en su arte o profesión o por inobservancia de los reglamentos u ordenanzas, causare un incendio u otros estragos.
 * Si el hecho u omisión culpable pusiere en peligro de muerte a alguna persona o causare la muerte de alguna persona, el máximum de la pena podrá elevarse hasta cuatro años.(Nota: texto conforme ley Nº 25.189)
 * It seems that the key here is incendio u otros estragos (fire or ¿?¿?¿?) it could be another kind of damages, to wreak havoc.... In fact I found this http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=34148&dict=S&lang=E
 * That's my little contribution to the topic, unfortunately I cannot help too much this time. Barcex 06:35, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well we seem unlikely to do the translation justice. As much I hate to make an inaccurate translation, just leaving the Spanish term alone is uninformative. So, I've compromised by leaving the Spanish term in italics and explaining the term parenthetically, thus "estrago culposo seguido de muerte (similar to criminal negligence leading to death)." - Draeco 05:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I have a feeling you may be looking for Culpable Negligence causing death, in some jurisdictions known as manslaughter or culpable homicide. Might be simpler just to translate as manslaughter, rather than transliterate as you seem to be attempting.

Thanks
Thanks everyone for all the hard work. It was a tough article with a lot of jergon, but I think the result is more than good. Thanks again, and good wiking. Mariano (t/c) 08:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Cámara Federal
I see that you translated Cámara Federal as Federal Congress, which looks as a legislative body while Cámara Federal is a short name for Cámara Federal de Apelaciones which is very very different from 'Congreso de la Nación Argentina which could be translated as Federal Congress. Barcex 22:31, 18 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe that would be the Federal Court of Appeals, so I changed to that. Mariano (t/c) 10:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Update
Hi
 * I have updated the Spanish article with the up to date info about the judicial process. See

Regards, Barcex 08:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Done, though someone that actually knows something of English should check it out. Mariano (t/c) 09:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Austral 2553
Someone should make an article about the Austral DC 9 that crashed in Fray Bentos in 1997. --Wesborland 00:53, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Pagina/12 quote needs translating
Could a bilingual editor please translate the extensive "Pagina/12" quotation into English? It is quite beyond my abilities.Writtenright 00:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)Writtenright

Causes of accident
I believe that the modification is not an act of vandalism. It actually describes the underlying causes of the pilot error, it wasn't a simple negligence from the pilot it was the toxic corporate culture that made them negligent in following safety protocols as a accepted practice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.191.222.206 (talk) 18:28, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

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