Talk:LGBT history/Archive 1

Currently no other country recognizes same-sex marriages as legally valid.
Should that line be deleted? It seems redundant considering the sentance two paragraphs above it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JONJONAUG (talk • contribs) 00:44, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

opener
First sentence does not make sense —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.13.140.27 (talk) 17:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC).
 * Thank you for your comment. It was very helpful pointing out how the first paragraph migrated into nonsense, though I would strongly recommend that you keep the comments on the Talk page itself.  Cheers.--Burzum 18:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Move
I propose a move to

nonheterosexual history

.100110100 05:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Oppose - in particular, "T" in LGBT has nothing to do with hetronormativity. Most transvestites are heterosexual men. Many transsexuals identify as heterosexual post transition. Additionally, by classifying LGBT as nonheterosexual, we are also excluding bisexuals who have heterosexual relationships. One more point - as a name, that would be more confusing to the public, and would reinforce rather than challenge hetro vs non-hetro thinking. Sorry to be so negative! HUG! Cheers!  Lauren  ♫/∆ 08:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

AIDS
I enjoy the article. Shouldn't it discuss AIDS, though? Durova 23:32, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. This article is woefully incomplete. A discussion of AIDS and the transformation of culture following the epidemic was suggested in 2005 and as of yet - nothing. 65.4.81.53 14:47, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Mistakes
Song, Ming dynasties and Heian period don't belong to ancient history are medieval and Qing dynasty is part of modern period.

Islam showed up in medieval ages then all gay muslim culture also belongs to medieval ages.--83.61.114.119 (talk) 00:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Politics
I was looking to see who the first LGBT politicians in the U.S. were, and I didn't see them in this article, or links to any other article that does. A lot of political history is missing, actually, including repeals of anti-sodomy and anti-homosexuality laws in various countries. -- Beland (talk) 05:02, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Huh?
"President Bill Clinton himself had a very pro-gay attitude." He signed and rallied for DOMA.

71.144.62.214 (talk) 05:04, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Btw, the link should be to Defense of Marriage Act, DOMA is a dab page--ospalh (talk) 11:36, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Section on homosexuality in popular culture
I feel this page desperately needs a section on L&G images in the media. If anyone can start it off I'd be happy to add in some material I have and wikilinks to pages already --Mapmark (talk) 14:52, 4 December 2009 (UTC)existing.
 * I don't think it does. Wikipedia has a flood of "in popular culture" sections tacked onto articles for little reason. In this case if a particular image is notable for its role in the development of LGBT History then it can be integrated into the relevant section rather than in a pointless subsection. Random trivia based on gay characters in any film, TV series or reality show would add nothing to the article.—Ash (talk) 15:02, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Hey Ash - I can understand your concern about the "flood of "in popular culture" sections tacked onto articles for little reason" - I would agree with that, but as it happens lesbian and gay history - particularly in the 20th century - has been enormously influenced by both negative stereotypes in the media and, recently, more positive portrayals. It would fit better than many other wiki pages. I'm not talking about a meaningless list of a few gay characters in movies etc but I think there are some quite influential moments (first gay kiss on Eastenders, Brokeback Mountain etc) that are extremely relevant to the progress of LGBT history. However if there is a general consensus that such issues do not belong on this page, I am more than happy to make a separate page on the subject :-)--Mapmark (talk) 15:46, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand your point, but as this article covers the entire span of History, popular culture seems a poor fit as it would realistically only span the last 25 years at most. A few choice images integrated into the 1980s and 1990s sections may work well but it sounds like what you would like to add might fit better on an article such as LGBT culture.—Ash (talk) 16:45, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Are pederasts LGBT?
The section LGBT history links to Pederasty in Ancient Greece as a main article and goes on to discuss pederasty. This appears to confuse LGBT history with man/boy love. Would anyone like to defend its inclusion in this article or shall I remove it?—Ash (talk) 09:35, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Based on the previous discussion at Talk:Timeline_of_LGBT_history I shall re-write the offending section.—Ash (talk) 12:53, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Homosexuality includes age-structured homosexuality, which ancient pederasty is a form of; check any book, e.g. Homosexualities by Stephen O. Murray. Banned user Haiduc's POV forks should be merge here and scrubbed appropriately. By the way, the term "LBGT" did not appear until the 20th century, so it seems inappropriate to name the article this way when it includes history way before that. Homosexuality has a main that points here. Pcap ping  23:40, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * This article (as with any Wikipedia article) should be written for the modern layman reader. English used should consequently be based on modern English rather than English as it may have been used pre-21st century or pre-20th century. Consequently use of the term "pederasty" can be assumed to mean its modern sense (and not in the sense that a specialist historian might understand it) unless carefully explained otherwise each time it is used. The same rationale applies to the article title. Ash (talk) 14:24, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Colors need to be changed, said the interior decorator
The 's colors are wrong. Light colors usually indicate freedom, while darker colors indicate lack or loss of same. I would suggest for the map a range of colors starting with White for the most liberated countries, i.e. those that have legalised gay marriage, and going to Black for the most anti-gay ones, i.e. those who punish homosexuality with death. -The Gnome (talk) 10:09, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

South Pacific Section
Re the Etoro and the Marind-anim…

I can't speak for the Marind-anim, as I never studied them, but I was given to understand the Etoro don't consider heterosexuality sinful; rather they consider it scary and dangerous. It's not taboo because they think it's morally wrong, it's taboo because a woman can steal your life force and you can die prematurely.

I'm not sure how the section should be edited since I cannot speak for the Marind-anim, but I feel like the section isn't wholly accurate.

Anyone who's a good writer, please chime in?

Batshua (talk) 07:08, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Decriminalization of Homosexuality (1961–2003)
This section doesn't seem to fit in -its too US centric. Up until Stonewall Riots, the article is pretty generic. it then starts to become the LGBT history of the USA with Decriminalization of Homosexuality (1961–2003). There is a lot more to LGBT decriminilisation than these US states.

If this section was removed it would become more of a generic LGBT History (as it's meant to be).

Other events which are significant to the world LGBT history (such as the Stonewall Riots) can remain. PjThompso 21:33, 18 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pjthompso (talk • contribs)

The difference between "Gay" and LGBT
From the article on the word gay: ''The term also sometimes includes transgender, transsexual, and intersexual. Some trans and intersexed individuals find their inclusion in this larger grouping to be offensive''.

It is my understanding that the other letters in LGBT represent groups who often find that their needs and issues have been overlooked by a majority in favor of exclusively male homosexual issues. Grouping all of these people under the banner gay cements this simplification in language.

I've changed the beginning of the article so as not to conflate these terms. Omphaloscope » talk 17:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

While on the subject of "the difference between gay and lgbt" this article is "LGBT history" but it almost exclusively only discusses gay men. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.135.92.225 (talk) 02:21, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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Organization and globalization
Some European history (i.e., Germany during the holocaust) has been put in the U.S. section. I've started moving some of it to the Europe section. Also, it would be great to see some more modern LGBT history about Asia, Africa, Latin America and other parts of the world. ABF99 (talk) 16:17, 8 November 2016 (UTC) I've reordered the text and some of the images. ABF99 (talk) 18:22, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2019
Do we have a source / citations for the following?: One ancient saying claimed that "Women are for business, boys are for pleasure." 67.174.217.47 (talk) 01:09, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting comment.svg Note: I've looked all over and the only thing close to reliable I've found is this opinion piece Breawycker (talk to me!) 02:56, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅ Nanophosis (talk) 04:43, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

When did homosexuality arise?
It should be pointed out that the term "homosexuality" did not appear before the mid-19th century. It is disingenuous to use it in discussions of same-sex behaviors before that time, as the term was unknown before then. It can also be argued that the concept of a person as "homosexual" was unknown before then. Before the homosexual label came along, it would have been impossible to label people as homosexual. There may have been other stigmatic labels, however, such as pederast and sodomite.Bdubay (talk) 16:41, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, the whole premise of this wikipedia page seems to be a rather desperate effort of finding general acceptance in US mainstream society and politics, through historical validation. Just reading the introduction is every historian's cringe: "LGBT history dates back to the first recorded instances of same-sex love and sexuality of ancient civilizations, involving the history of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) peoples and cultures around the world. ". The device of archaicization is all too familiar in the nationalist narration in Romania, Macedonia, Catalonia, etc. After all, the "LGBT" community did not come into existence until the 2000's: the acronym was coined in the 1990's, in the US (and adopted elsewhere on account of its cultural heft).

In most cultures and civilisations, people with same sex desires, who engaged in non-heterosexual behaviour, or those who simply wanted to assume the role of the opposite sex, did not merit a separate, social category, i.e. it was either too widespread in society to fit in any category, or it was considered a social, if not a religious calling (especially, in the case of transsexuality). However, there were social constraints in the expression of sexuality: e.g. a free, adult man would never allow himself to be penetrated, lest he risked to lose his social status, women could not assume the role of men, etc. The notable exceptions prove to be ancient Judea and, later, christianized Europe, which introduced the criminalisation of behaviour that did not affirm the divine order, ergo, sex for the sake of procreation was obligatory, whereas non-procreational sex (such as between two men, two women, humans and animals, masturbation) was severely condamned. It was only when European colonialism made its mark in the world, that non-heterosexual sex under all circumstances also became criminalized outside Europe. The adoption or imposition of European ideologies and law led to the introduction and definition of homosexuality, lesbianism, etc. in most parts of the world, so that they could be subjects of prosecution (well, in some cases, lesbianism was excluded in the law books, because Queen Victoria could not bear the thought of women becoming physical with each other). In fact, in many non-European languages (in Japanese, Chinese, Arabic, Persian etc.), new terms had to be coined for this purpose.

Fighting discrimination against gays, lesbians, transgenders (and all those who feel excluded from the heteronomative society) should not involve arguments derived from, often imperfect, similarities or precedents in history or other cultures. Arguing with religious people about the right or wrong of human sexuality is pointing out the irrelevance of biblical (mosaic, quranic) arguments in modern debates: there is no mentioning of lesbians in the holy books (nor dinosaurs for that matter), the fate of Sodom & Gomorrah is not because of gay sex, but rather of unbridled debauchery, the vagueness of those passages, etc.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB04:A87:6000:2020:367B:A18B:13D6 (talk) 17:15, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Prior to 1950s
What were transgender persons doing prior to when they became visible around the 1950s and early 1960s? Were all of them closeted throughout their lives? Human beings were around for thousands of years prior to the 1950s. Did they live their entire lives as the physical body they were born into while internally feeling/knowing that they were another gender? That means thousands of straight men throughout history were married to women (who were actually men but they just didn't know it, and also straight women married men who were really women)...something doesn't add up there. Shouldn't there be some mention of this in the article? 2604:2000:7FC0:1:FD92:EA42:D60D:45BF (talk) 04:18, 30 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't get your point. Apart from the fact that historically, many (secretively) queer people might have just not married, your scenario seems very plausible to me. --Yhdwww (talk) 21:17, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

"Pederasty in the Renaissance" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Pederasty in the Renaissance. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 July 8 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. ★Trekker (talk) 18:52, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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 * Lesbiche - 1928 - D- Die freundin 1928.jpg

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:41, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Lesbiche - 1928 - D- Die freundin 1928.jpg

Proposal for pages about historical (Pre-Stonewallish) LGBT culture and historiography of queer identities on the LGBT Studies WikiProject page
What it says on the tin. I think it's important to get as many opinions about these proposals as possible, so I hope it's okay that I'm "advertising" here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lexid523 (talk • contribs) 19:05, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Too many missing links
This article has sources that don’t go anywhere. Making it impossible to verify certain claims. Like source number [10] and source [25] don’t name any books or present links to anything. I mean come on it’s impossible to tell what book you are citing if you don’t include the name.CycoMa (talk) 16:59, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Proposal to reorganize the article in terms of geographical location instead of chronological order
The current structure of the article doesn't make any sense. All non-western content are categorized under "ancient history" for some reason, even through it talks about events set in the medieval era and early modern era. I feel like the article would benefit from abandoning the era system all together and categorize things by geographic location. I envision something like: etc. etc.
 * East Asia
 * Japan
 * China
 * Thailand
 * Western Word
 * Classical Greece and Rome
 * Medieval
 * Renaissance

TsunTsky (talk) 21:32, 21 March 2022 (UTC)


 * I took the liberty to reorganized the article myself since I don't see anyone also coming. Region divisions are made loosely based on world regions according to world banks.
 * TsunTsky (talk) 02:52, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:22, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Luic San Saorn 1933.jpg

Notification of incomplete information
The entire paragraph under the heading "Late 19th century" does not appear to address the topic, it only contains a specific example without broader elaboration. A user better-versed in this topic than I may wish to elaborate on LGBT history in the late 19th century. Jpianop (talk) 22:23, 27 November 2022 (UTC)