Talk:LGBT rights in Lebanon

ILLEGAL but NOT PENALIZED!
It stays that it's illegal, but not penalized! What do they mean with this? How is something illegal when you can't be punished? --188.113.91.110 (talk) 17:47, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

- It is penalized: fines and/or up to 1 year in prison! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.105.92.20 (talk) 13:40, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay, folks
Did Lebanon really decriminalize homosexuality? As far as I know, it did not: http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Lebanon-News/2014/Mar-05/249261-landmarkruling-rubbishes-anti-gay-lawin-lebanon.ashx#axzz2v5wovriX this case was an individual one, like the 2011-2013 same-sex marriages or the non-op trans people's legal gender changes here in Brazil, not a landmark case that scrapped the legal validity of such laws. Police officers can still harass the LGBT population based on these, just as it is possible for them to do so in countries that don't have a recent history of using these to criminalize LGBT people, but it might be a possibility.

Before you change, you will need a reliable source stating how exactly this case is a precedent. I'd expect a binding case such as these to be presented by people of higher ranks in Lebanese justice. It isn't said it was decided by any entity like a higher court. Otherwise, police officers will still have power to use them at will, and a different judge in a different region of the country might have a different opinion. So, it would be harmful to present people something that can actually not be wholly true and possibly bring them into detention. Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 01:08, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 01:17, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 08:44, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Your infos aren't really correct
I think that you aren't Lebanese, or at least you aren't a resident of Lebanon. As per the Lebanese law, such ruling as well as the ruling of 2009 of Batroun court that use the citation of the LPS as a support to these rulings are enough to make Article 534 ineffective in that case. The decisions clearly say "Homosexual acts aren't against the norms, even if considered as an exception to the norms" while Article 534 only can be used in case of " sexual activities contradicting the laws of the nature", so it cannot be used at all in that case, and no judge can take a different decision ( Batroun court's ruling comes from a high court that makes it used as a reference for all judges). Any action took by the ISF will be deemed illegal and dismissed by courts. (Please show me any case of arrest that happened after January 2014) and thanks. <: Jean Bassil 112 > — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jean Bassil 112 (talk • contribs) 16:15, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clarifying, the reverts make more sense now, but do you have a reliable source for that info?
 * The sources you added say nothing about Batroun court's ruling coming from a higher court that sets precedence. Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 23:38, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

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Blacklisted Links Found on LGBT rights in Lebanon
Cyberbot II has detected links on LGBT rights in Lebanon which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may request that it is white-listed. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist locally or globally. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the help desk.

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the issue of understanding the precedent set in 2014 by a Lebanese judge
Mae1983 I do suggest you all check the Lebanese penal code and the ruling itself before vandalising this page! The article in question makes sexual activity that goes against laws of nature illegal... What the judge has done in his ruling is that he clarified that homosexuality, despite being exceptional to the laws of nature, does not actually goes against it like zoophilia! In this case, the precedent set is more than enough to render the article invalid when it comes to homosexuality. If you may bring any evidence or counter-arguments to prove your claims, it would be greatly appreciated.But, any further unsuported edits will be flagged as vandalism in the future. Thanks Mohammad Abulhassan (talk) 16:19, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Mohammad Abulhassan, we appreciate your input. As mentioned, one judge claiming a law unconstitutional does not automatically decriminalize homosexuality. As one of the many homosexuals mistreated, jailed, and abused by government officials within the last year (after the efforts of the judge Dikwayne Judge), is a great evidence of how the law is still in effect. Please feel free to support evidence of the parliament passing the law to decriminalize homosexuality in Lebanon prior to making changes to this page. In fact Lebanon has been without a President and a temp government for a long time now, which unfortunately in our eyes makes it impossible to pass the law in the near future.. Check out 2015's UPR submission: https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/04/01/lebanon-upr-submission-march-2015. Again thank you for your input Abulhassan. Mae1983

Mae1983 Good evening dear...What proves that you don't actually "understand" the ruling is that the judge did not at all claim the article was unconstitutional, he only rendered its use invalid for the case of homosexuality. Your statement about abuse is actually incorrect, ever since this ruling, not a single person has been charged for homosexuality, which proves that this judge DID set a precedent. And in Lebanon,a single precedent of that sort is more than enough, especially that it's backed by a more general ruling in 2009 by a judge who was not actually looking into a specific case, but discussing homosexuality in general. There is plenty of evidence supporting that, but not a single reliable source to back your claims. And while I do really appreciate your work, I did feel obliged to revert your edits. Thanks for understanding Edit: I have extensively examined the report by HRW. It does not point out to the fact that LGBT people that may have been abused by security forces were arrested for being LGBT. It rather claims that they might have been subject to abuse because of their sexual status. In conclusion, it's safe to say that it does not represent the official policy/stance of the Lebanese government, nor its laws which ban the use of torture to the strictest extent. It seems to me that these cases tend to be isolated ones.

Mohammad Abulhassan

Thanks again for your input. I am not sure how involved you are with the gay community, but feel free to ask around. Also now your saying he didn't say it is unconstitutional which contradicts the whole point to why we are even having this discussion right now. I do not see how a judge rendering the validity of article 534 for the case of homosexuality, makes homosexuality legal in Lebanon. With the increase in extreme conservatism in Lebanon there have been more and more reported cases of abuse. As I mentioned feel free to look into the UNHCR Report for 2015.Also, although I believe your action to revert my edits is not credible (and threatening to report for vandalism), please provide the most recent penal code that explicitly removes article 534 or that states that the penal code does not apply for the case of homosexuality.In fact we reached out to Helem and confirmed that as of today the law is still in effect. As humans we have the right to reach out to the rest of the world.. If you can provide the following, I suggest we hear the opinion of other active members of this page including the page creator. Out of curiosity, by your repetitive threatening and lack of evidence to your claims you seem to me a little aggressive about the issue .. mind expressing why? Mae1983 Hello, I would like to apolgise for that but I did never intend to be aggressive or rude. Firstly, there is no need to declare the article unconstitutional, since the judge didn't actually intend to invalidate the whole article, however he did only touch on the way it was unfairly used to prosecute homosexuals. Secondly, do you know what that article literally is all about? Well, I would like to inform you that there nowhere is the word "homosexuality" available, neither in this specific article, nor in the whole penal code. This article is still perfectly valid for cases of zoophilia for example, but absolutely not homosexuality. Thirdly, yes I do actually reach out to gay people,and while homophobia is still encountered, I can reassure you that it is not on the rise, rather declining to levels never reached before. Your statement about growing conservatism in Lebanon is blatantly incorrect, and the Lebanese society has always been known to be the most liberal of the Middle East, and that reality is here to stay. Finally, I've warned you only because I sensed vandalism occurring, and especially with the way you have been editing this page, which does raise suspicions. On a side note, I am still waiting for you to find a single proof of a person having been tried post the date of this ruling we're discussing, and I am pretty sure you will find none, as far as I am aware. And yes, I've done my research pretty well. Thanks again. Check these credible sources.

Mohammad Abulhassan

As I said I am a great example.. I have been abused by the system. But to your point that you need proof, I do not have access to police reports. But I can do some research and provide yet another article : http://whereloveisillegal.com/country/lebanon/ Although we all dream of the beautiful Lebanon to treat everyone equally, this unfortunately is not the case. Yes, it is seen as the most liberal country in the middle east, this doesnot mean its perfect.. Again unfortunately certain groups are in fact becoming more and more conservative.. I am sure that excludes many locations in Lebanon, but have you driven through the streets of Beirut and the suburbs lately? Similarly I am asking you for credible resources showing that the penal article code 534 explicitly says it does not apply for homosexuals. At the end of the day we can keep going back and forth about this, so we need to agree on something.. I feel it might be helpful to hear different opinions, so as I said I reached Helem and they did confirm that homosexuals are still bring persecuted. Protection of homosexuals and legalizing homosexuality would require a change in the constitution that states homosexuals to be treated equally compared to any other individual in the country. Last time I checked, this was not the case. So if you think this is the case, please provide your source from the Lebanese Law.

To resolve this issue I suggest we make the following changes to the page:

We mention that homosexuals are still being persecuted since the government has not officially address this. In its turn you Mohammad Abulhassanwill elaborate on what you mentioned by going in detail about the 2014 judge ruling. Do you agree to that? Onel5969 and Jean Bassil 112. What do you think? Mae1983 Sorry to hear that. Actually, being persecuted by the society or even by some policmen is different from being legally tried and punished by court. Additionally, it is not the constitution that addresses such issues, but the penal code. Have you minded checking the links I've provided?? They state the article and explain the ruling, and this explanation is perfecty compatible with my argument, which is based on some legal understanding. I would agree to add that the fact that LGBT people still face prejudice and that's already stated in the first sentence of the page, but from a legal perspective, it is technically legal, and if a gay persn were arrested and referred to the judiciary, the natural procedure would have the case dismissed for the aforementioned reasons.

Mohammad Abulhassan

Yep I did. Daily star one did not work.. They all state the ruling of the judge which simply doesn't mean legalizing homosexuality. I understand where you are coming from by stating that you believe that the article does not apply to homosexuality and similarly to the judge's ruling (in the case mentioned above), but I also want you to be open about the fact that based on the Lebanese law (compared to the U.S. Federal Constitution for example), there is nothing that states homosexuals are protected by law. Therefore based on the UN Human Right reports and the fact by law homosexuals are not protected, how do you suggest we resolve this depute? Mae1983 If this one didn't work for you, I suggest carefully reading the article published by the Huffington Post (UK) which is quite clearer and straight to the point. I do agree about the laws not offering protection for LGBT people, but also insist on the fact that they still can't be tried for their homosexuality as per this ruling. So I would suggesting removing the part saying Yes (de facto) as an answer to whether LGBT people are protected against discrimination, as well as adding the notion somewhere that LGBT people might still encounter wide prejudice and forms of hate-speech, mainly by conservatives. Hope this settles down the"dispute" and somewhat solves the confusion.

Mohammad Abulhassan It sounds that your intention is to keep this image of great Lebanon. Which is something I truly appreciate.. per in many aspects it is a great country indeed. But unfortunately as we agreed, we do not have protection by Law. Therefore after many efforts of trying to dig into this and discussions with Helem, I believe the answer to "Same-sex sexual activity" should be reverted back to illegal. Mae1983 While we do always work hard to maintain the glorious image of our country, I think that wikipedia is far from being a place for subjectivity. So when I based my argument, it was actually founded on objectivity and research. Helem was by the way one of the NGOs that rejoiced and strongly welcomed that ruling hailing it as a historic step. I am still looking for any piece of information showing that anyone has been tried for homosexuality ever since the ruling was issued and found nothing, and that clearly supports my claim. I am thinking of making it "Technically Legal" for now, at least until someone can counter it with a proof of such conviction taking place.Mohammad Abulhassan feel free to reach out and confirm with Helem tomorrow morning BST, what your are asking for is simply not something I have access to. If you have access to records of all police reports and you can go throw them one by one showing that there was a dismissal of a SINGLE case against a homosexual filed by a family member or any citizen of that matter, please feel free to share it, otherwise by Tomorrow 8:00am EST I will revert my changes back. If you would like an extension by adding a Wikipedia administrator to this, please do that by 8:00am EST. Mae1983 You shall understand that court rulings, especially similar ones, are always made public. Previous sentences have been accessed easily by the people, and are known to the public. The biggest proof to this is what yo may find on the relative wikipedia page. I'm sorry but your argument makes absolutely no sense to me. Any disputed edits made on wikipedia shall be based on evidence and proof, and since you are basing your argument on assumptions only, not having presented one single piece of evidence, I fear it is as per community standards here considered vandalism. In addition to this, placing timeframes goes against wikipedia community standards as well!

Timeframes are set for you to verify your changes.. reading back, you said that same-sex sexual activity is seen "against the act of nature".. Since you cannot provide the law which states protections to homosexuals, I believe as a community the page should be updated to reflect that stating homosexuality in Lebanon is illegal and not "technically Legal" Mae1983 I quoted the judge saying it is an exception to the norm but NOT AGAINST THE LAWS OF NATURE!! And the absence of protection from discrimination is not the same as the legality of same-sex relationships! And as the community shall be updated with authentic facts, only well sourced facts are to be shown! I hope this serves as a last warning. Mohammad Abulhassan I would have to agree with Mae on this one.

Mohammad Abulhassan I must have misread the "not against nature part" so apologies for that. How about for now we leave it blank and from your end may you please add a Wikipedia admin to figure this out? Mae1983 Mohammad Abulhassan We had this same discussion once before. Looking deeper into the matter we realized it is legal

As for the edits, I was changing the edits to what is technically true. Homosexual activity is still illegal; although I see the articles say that some courts and growing attitudes seem to point towards legalization. Jean Bassil 112 Jean, based on? Helem is saying that's not the case..
 * Mae1983 Mohammad Abulhassan Based upon trusted reports and legal analysis. Jean

Jean Bassil 112

Please share..

As for the edits, I feel like we should keep the article saying it is technically illegal to do LGBT activity. Homosexual activity is still illegal at least on paper and in the books; we should list it that way until it is completely changed and is 100% legal aka the law is completely gone. I see the articles say that some courts and growing attitudes seem to point towards legalization but until then it's still punishable technically by 1 year in prison. 2605:A140:2044:7474:0:0:0:1 (talk)

GayLebanon.info
is porn/spam, can be removed, thanks. -- Emdee (talk) 09:21, 27 September 2018 (UTC)