Talk:LGBT themes in speculative fiction/Archive 1

I propose to merge the pages Gay science fiction and Lesbian science fiction, creating a merged page called "LGBT Science Fiction". The new page would have sections for science fiction featuring gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered characters and/or themes. An additional section would cover the many types of "alternative" sexualities that crop up frequently in science fictional settings. If the merger occurs, I will take some responsibility for editing and maintaining the resulting page.


 * An article on alternative sexualities in science fiction is a good idea, and it could link to these articles, but I think some people might be offended with lumping all these into one article. -- Kendrick7 04:37, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Offended or not, I would suggest we focus on the merits of merger/separation. : Of course gay & lesbian SF are both part of the larger movements of independent and identity-focused presses, and the transformative LGBT-identity movements in the 70s. Similarly, it may be the case that the majority of gay sf & lesbian SF are published by mainstream or SF publication houses, or by GLBT houses that do not distinguish between gay & lesbian SF.


 * But one point for keeping them separate might be their distinct histories. Both lesbian and gay SF have their own distinct publishing houses with their own histories. Lesbian science fiction published by Naiad Press and other small feminist presses has been subject to the vicissitudes of feminist presses in the 70s-90s. And while that affected gay presses as well as lesbian presses, that's not the whole story: changes affecting the broader women's movement (which included women's music festivals, women's bookstores, women's presses, etc.) were also a significant part of that history for lesbian sf. These publication histories may reflect substantive differences in the categories as well. For instance, there doesn't seem to be a lot of lesbian sf/hardcore porn cross-over, while I would suggest that's not an insignificant portion of the independently published gay sf.  Finally, another major concern for me in combining them would be that the entry would become a de facto "gay sf" entry with insufficient balance. LQ 12:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I can see the merits of combining the Gay science fiction and Lesbian science fiction pages, but the arguments by LQ make a lot of sense. The two categories do have different histories, and I agree that combining them may tend to favor Gay vs. Lesbian. And there hasn't been any discussion for nine months which suggests that there isn't a strong move to make any changes.  However, even more importantly for me, I don't know if there are many Wiki writers that are sufficiently familiar with both categories to write authoritatively and with balance for a merged page, something that would be very necessary, I think. For example, I know a lot about SciFi (having been a voracious reader since my age was measured in a single digit) and a lot about being a gay male, and even a fair amount about gay SciFi. But I know very little about Lesbian culture, or Lesbian SciFi. So if I had to vote, I would vote for keeping them separate with an overview page on LGBTQ Science Fiction that points to them both, and in that way, it's easier for people to write about just what they know. Anyway, just my gay $0.02 Becksguy 04:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Some of the examples and external links on this page were for lesbian books / discussion. I deleted them for now, but i think merging would be the best idea - the lesbian article is basically a stub with a list. I think a combined article, with a seperate list article would be better. If lesbian SF has such a different history, i would expect there to be more written about it. As it stand, the couple of points made in the lesbian article (specialist publisher, lesbian seperatism) could easily fit into the combined one.Yobmod (talk) 15:01, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Missing Image
I'm not sure why the pulp cover uploaded here was deleted. While I've not seen this specific pulp, all my research on the early pulps shows that almost none where actually copyrighted, which makes images of their covers available under 'fair use.' Is the image available for upload again? I think its important to include the covers of the earliest notable GLBT scifi pulps here.
 * What leads you to believe they were not copyrighted? -- Orange Mike 02:35, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I probably used the wrong word here. They would likely be copyrighted as an original work belonging to a person if there was a way to track down the publisher, publishing company or author.  But many of these were written in small batches by people who used pseudonyms and printed in places that had to hide.  The books often have no ISBN number or any other information to identify them specifically (sometimes they don't even have a publishing year, rarely have I seen an actual copyright symbol).


 * Even if they are copyrighted, and someone could actually support a claim of owning them, I would still assume that using the cover would constitute 'fair use.' Though I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know for sure.  Qvamp 19:53, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Criteria for inclusion
How was the choice made to include some of the books in the main text? It is unclear if they are meant to represent the first of their kind, or be seminal, or widely held to be the best. Some of them feature only minor gay characters, which hardly makes them "gay SF"

Eg. Julian May in The Milieu Trilogy has two gay characters — Luc Remillard and Ken Macdonald — and features their gay marriage. However, although they are both related to major characters, their role within the novels is minimal.

I've read this, and hardly even noticed their sexuality. Why is in notable for this article? I cannot believe they are the first example of a gay marriage in SF, they are not even that old. I'll remove if no-one objects... Yobmod (talk) 13:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Gay SF is...?
Does SF here include fantasy? The lead sentence says not, and i followed the link from the SF subgenres page. I would like to remove the fantasy (eg Last Herald Mage's 2 entries), but there is no "gay fantasy" page. So maybe the lead and categorisation should be changed? I will remove for now - someone who wants to change the pages focus can revert... Yobmod (talk) 13:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Science fiction is used here in the broader sense that incorporates both science fiction (narrow sense) and fantasy. GAY SF is not really a subgenre; you can find gay elements nowadays in anything from high fantasy to military SF. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  13:38, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, ok. So i'll change the lead for now, and re-add the fantasy. Catergories i still have to learn to change :-)Yobmod (talk) 13:45, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed they are not subgenres - so should gay and lesbian SF be removed from the subgenres of SF list?Yobmod (talk) 14:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it'd be fitting if gay and lesbian SF be removed. After all, they are not subgenres... --DavidD4scnrt (talk) 09:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

What is needed?
I think i've removed everything i definitly think shouldn't be here. So now time to think what is needed:

There are a few award winning gay Sf anthologies to go into the bibliography:

Decarnin, Camilla; Paleo, Lynn; Garber, Eric - Worlds Apart: An Anthology of Lesbian and Gay Science Fiction and Fantasy (2nd edition is out) Eighner, Lars and Clay Caldwell - QSFx2: Queer Science Fiction Elliot, Jeffrey M. - Kindred Spirits: An Anthology of Gay and Lesbian Science Fiction Griffith, Nicola & Stephen Pagel * Bending the Landscape: Fantasy (anthology of 22 queer-themed stories) - winner Lambda * Bending the Landscape: Science Fiction - winner Lambda * Bending the Landscape: Horror (forthcoming 2000)

and more is needed about early gay SF, or important writers. any ideas? Atm thinking Varley and Sturgeon and Ryman and Kushner, but have to think more.

Finally: I think a section on the increased possibilities in sexuality in SF would be good. ie, is it gay to have sex with a time-travelled version of oneself, or with a clone, or with a man that is your sex-changed wife, or for male vampires / werewolves to be biting men.....Yobmod (talk) 17:34, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Compton, D. G. Farewell, Earth's Bliss (1966) [homosexual protagonist]

1974 	Joe Haldeman 	The Forever War 	Homosexuality becomes universal, originally adopted as a form of population control but later becoming the norm by convention

1975 	Naomi Mitchison 	Solution Three 	Privileged homosexuality in a future society used as meditation on privileged heterosexuality

1978 	Elizabeth A. Lynn 	A Different Light (novel) 	Gay sexual relationship 1979 	Diane Duane 	The Door Into Fire 	Gay sexual relationship; high fantasy 1979 	Elizabeth A. Lynn 	Watchtower 	Gay sexual relationship; high fantasy

David Gerrold!!!

Tags and undo
After one day of editing this article that has been untouched for a year, it gained three (3!) tags, even though i added absolutely no new material. Which i guess is good, as it means somebody is actually reading the thing. But trying to help re-write or reference it would be nice too - my Clude encylopedias and Uranian worlds are in a different country and too heavy to ship.

Also i undid the complete removal of the early SF section. I'd named it "alternative sexuality" to match with the title of a later subsection, and so as not to offend Bi people by caling a character gay (when he was more a "man-who-has-sex-with-men"). Completely removing it doesn't help to illustrate that gay sex was strongly implied in some stories even in the pulp era, which is why i think it should stay, at least until someone can come up with a better example (earlier, less ambigious, in one of the pulp magazines etc).

I've shortened the Odd John para anyway - his other sexual activities are not so important, and i have no idea how influential the book was. and re-named the section as "Homosexuality in..." as that can refer to specific acts of gay sex, and not such orientation.Yobmod (talk) 08:41, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I concur with your actions. Thank you. --DavidD4scnrt (talk) 09:25, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Source? Delaney on Sturgeon
"According to an anecdote related by Samuel R. Delany, when Sturgeon first submitted the story, his editor not only rejected it but phoned every other editor he knew and urged them to reject it as well. It is nonetheless regarded as a classic by many."

I removed the above from the article. I think it would be great to have, but the 4 interviews with Delaney in which he mentions this story didn't say this. Anyone else recognise it? I know Delany also wrote an intro to a sturgeon collection, which i don't have... Yobmod (talk) 11:17, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Plagarism accusation
''MUCH OF THIS PAGE HAS BEEN PLAGIARIZED FROM Joseph Marchesi, "Science Fiction and Fantasy," in Claude J. Summers, ed. The Gay and Lesbian Literary Heritage(New York, Henry Holt, 1995), 638-644''

The above was posted to the top of the article. Although i didn't create this article, i know the accusation to be untrue, as i expanded and cited almost all of it, and i have never read this book. The majority of information comes from the Encylopedia of Homosexuality by Percy et al. (1990) (see references). I altered the text sufficiently to avoid copyright violation imo. Let me know if you think otherwise. Whether Marchesi plagerised from the earlier encylopedia is another matter. Yobmod (talk) 08:54, 26 June 2008 (UTC)