Talk:LGBT themes in video games/Archive 1

Position paper?
Fixed links and titles. Didn't have a chance to read it all yet, but some of it sounds like it's a position paper, namely the title "what is missing". If this is the case, then please make it more encyclopidic. And thanks for taking the time to contribute. Slike2 01:31, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This article is a joke and should be deleted entirely not clean
This was in the article: "Street Fighter 2 (1993): Based on the popular arcade game. This fighting game came out for just about every 16-bit and 32-bit computer and video game system available. The super macho marine Guile has an unexplained deep affection for his buddy Charlie. He enters the fighting contest to get revenge on Mr. Big for killing Charlie. He wears Charlie’s dog tags with him always. A later Street Fighting Game [Street Fighter Alpha] allowed you to play Charlie who wore the same clothing as did Guile."

That is pure speculation. I don't see any homosexual link between these two characters when I had my Street Fighter addiction in the 90's. I was cleaning this article (Wikipedia Community Portal) just couldn't stop chuckling at the large amount of misinformation about video games in general. --Anonymous Cow 21:53, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the article seems to be in need of considerable attention, but the topic itself does seem valid. How the minorities are treated in games, the changes of attitude as time passes, etc. would make for interesting (if weird) reading. The monstrous title could stand some shortening, though, probably by using the clunky acronym GLBT. Shall we get cracking? -- Kizor 11:23, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If you feel a change is needed, feel free to make it yourself! Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone (yourself included) can edit any article by following the  link. You don't even need to log in, although there are several reasons why you might want to. Wikipedia convention is to be bold and not be afraid of making mistakes. If you're not sure how editing works, have a look at How to edit a page, or try out the Sandbox to test your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. -- AllyUnion (talk) 13:47, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The article has several discrepancies and errors. Just by looking in the paragraph mentioning Metal Gear Solid...MGS was not released for the Nintendo 64, there was no character with an incestuous homosexual relationship (the only incest ever mentioned was in the sequel, and even then it was not homosexual) and there was no character whose gender was questionable. --DA Roc 13:25, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Justin in Grandia
I'd just lke to know where it is stated, or even implied that Justin was Bisexual?

OK, well as I've had no response, I'm removing this quote (In 1999 Game Arts released the role playing game titled Grandia for the PlayStation 1; in this game a major character named Justin was bisexual.), as there is no evidence that Justin was bisexual.

I've also changed the number of female characters in Final Fantasy VII from two to three (Tifa, Aeris and Yuffie)

By HunterLionheart

Proposed Changes
Fifelfoo 22:33, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) To rehead the article into encyclopedically coherent entries
 * 2) To move sections around to achieve encyclopedically coherent sections ie:
 * 3) Systems of censorship in US video game production
 * 4) GLBT characters in the past
 * 5) Depictions of GLBT characters in current games
 * 6) Tropes used to depict GLBT culture
 * 7) GLBT gamers influence in MMORPGs etc.
 * 8) Working in the Industry
 * 9) Cultural comparison
 * 10) To trim original research, unsupported assertions and tendentious material one section at a time.
 * 11) To add encyclopedic introductions to concepts like heteronormativity, incl. use of wikilinks.
 * 12) To work on language and expression

Remove some templates
I don't see any POV problems or original research anymore; we should probably remove those two templates. (Some fact checking would still be desirable.) Ben Standeven 02:59, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * To be quite honest I still think there are significant POV and Original Research problems. POV problems: lack of discussion of bisexual or lesbian gaming issues.  Lack of critique of gaming from lesbian perspectives (violence alone ought to account for some feminist lesbian critiques).  There's also an Original Research problem in that this is still obviously an undergraduate/honours research essay, its tendentious, and it is still marked as someone's work.  The discursion into side topics alone ought to raise alarms.  I think this is a good piece of research work, I agree with the political issue of a GLBT (I prefer "Queer" myself) discourses, but the article is not up to an encyclopedic standard yet.  Fifelfoo 05:59, 6 May 2005 (UTC)


 * The reason there's a lack of discussion of bisexual and lesbian issues is that gay men are a far more discussed minority than either lesbians or bisexuals, in videogames as well as anywhere else. So a genuinely neutral informative article will probably remain slanted towards the gay male issues.  We could add new sections specifically focussing on bisexuality and lesbianism, but I think that would get confusing because the three go hand in hand in media so often.  Also, I just added a note about other sexual minority issues concerning one of my favourite games, Metal Gear Solid 3...should there be more about this, or is that something for a different entry?


 * I keep removing my name from the end of the article, but some one seems to insist on putting it back.  The article has a list of any bisexual or lesbian characters that I have been able to find.   (Posted by Edward TJ Brown)


 * I don't think we should be discussing GLBT gaming here; that would be a subject for a different article, say GLBT Perspectives on Electronic Gaming. This article should be focused on game characters.

Rename this, but don't delete it.
This page is really more about the general treatment of homosexuality and transgenderism in video games than characters who are GLBT as such. Also, I don't think having a character cross-dress strictly for comic relief (i.e. Cloud Strife) qualifies them as being worth a mention as a GLBT character, especially since male cross-dressing is so often used as a gag in anime and games. (Most cross-dressers in actuality are heterosexual men, who don't assume full-time female identities.)


 * Cloud doesn't just cross-dress, he has sex with multiple men in a hottub.

There need to be more sources cited here in general-- for example, are there any references backing up the idea that the Nintendo censorship code was adopted because the company worried about American racism, or is this fan speculation?

There are very, very few characters that I know of who are unambiguously gay (and "rumored to be by fans" isn't enough unless you can cite sources). As such, it would probably be better to rename it to something like "GLBT issues in computer and video games." I think it's a topic worth writing about and the article ought to stay in some form, but needs a lot of work to bring it up to Wikipedia standards.

--Sethrenn 21:09, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that "GLBT issues in computer and video games" is a title that better indicates the content of the article, and it's shorter to boot!

I totally agree that this article needs better sourcing and clean-up; additionally, the article should be shortened. What is worth considering is the notion of reducing the number of examples that has been used - it seems that currently the original author's intent was to list every instance of GLBT content and issues that s/he could think of. This is not standard encyclopedic practice. What do others think? I'm not going to go through and shorten the article drastically if others are against that notion. -Droman 04:29, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * If you look far enough back, the original article was largely speculative or just made up (Guile and Charile a gay couple?), but the current version seems to be aiming for a more comprehensive list. I think if you're going to shorten it, the first thing to go would be all the cross-dressing that has nothing to do with transgender.  Ohter than that, perhaps cut down on mentions of licensed games that came with ready-made gay characters.  Gay video-game characters are still rare enough that pretty much all of them are notable, though. Ace of Sevens 06:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I propose the title GLBT characters in computer and video games. Simple. BKmetic 02:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that "LBGT characters in video games" would suffice, or an alternation of something simpler. The current title is certainly overly long and would make it a bit hard for newer users to discover. --AWF

Ocarina of Time and Jolly Roger
First let me make it clear that the Banjo character Jolly is not gay; he is just a bit of an effeminate, that's all. Gay, effeminate, different things.

Second, you could add the controversy of Zelda in Ocarina of Time: Is Sheik transsexual or not (she stayed that way for seven years, which adds to the controversy)? Then why is that game rated E? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.52.188.239 (talk) 06:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

Because you people look to much into theses things Sheik was only there to hide Zelda true identiy from Ganon. And it is said that Zelda was a Tom Boy not a Transsexual. Rocks Lotus 06:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The tomboy thing is true, but the controversy lies in whether Zelda changed gender for seven non-stop years, or just crossdressed in some way.


 * "Is Sheik transsexual or not (she stayed that way for seven years, which adds to the controversy)? Then why is that game rated E?"


 * For one thing, a "transsexual" usually implies a sex change. Zelda is, at most, "transgender", in that she deviates from expected gender roles by dressing as a male.  But I hardly think she can be diagnosed with gender identity disorder or that she was looking into testosterone therapy or genital reconstruction.


 * Second, even if she could be identified as transgender, why would that be offensive and make the game no longer warrant an "E" rating? Was this in the article somewhere, does Nintendo have a policy of not giving games anything lower than teen if they so much as feature anything resembling a GLBT individual?  Or are you assuming the mere presence of a woman dressing up like a man, and for a totally explained reason which has nothing to do with gender or sexuality for that matter, is cause for controversy?  If so, that's a little sad.  Stil, I'd like to see some basis for this belief somewhere in the article.Rglong 05:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:FinalFight2.gif
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Fair use rationale for Image:Larry1.gif
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Fair use rationale for Image:Ash in Streets of Rage 3 screenshot.png
Image:Ash in Streets of Rage 3 screenshot.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 02:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Ash in Streets of Rage 3 screenshot.png
Image:Ash in Streets of Rage 3 screenshot.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 00:20, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Megaman
I noticed that Megaman Zero didn't get a mention under transgendered, as the game series has a character named Harpuia who appears to be a transgender of some description. In Greek Mythology, Harpuias were female, and s/he appears female, yet is called male.

Zero himself might deserve a mention, as he has a long history of been mistaken for a girl, or being gay(relationship with X). There's also Lumine from Megaman X8.


 * Isn't Harpuia one of those male characters that end up being changed to female for purposes of localization?--KefkaTheClown 00:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Updates
I am not aware of the Megaman issues, and if theey are truthful then they certrainly did not exist in the version outside of Japan. Please provide evidence on the Mega characters.

I did have Fear Effect 2, listed but some has removed it. Please tell me why "Flea" from Trigger/Chrono Cross belongs in the list.


 * Flea is a character whos sprite clearly depicts him as a female. However, Flea asserts quite vigorously that he's a man. He also seems to have a tendancy blow hearts, whether in the sprite or some of the text in the japanese version. None the less, Flea is either a textbook example of an effeminate male character as previously defined in the article proper. Or, Flea is a woman who appears to suffer from gender confusion.--KefkaTheClown 00:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

What about Phantasy Star II?
Here's a quote taken from a website about differences between the Japanese & English version of the Genesis game,

"In Japanese Phantasy Star II, the piano teacher, Ustvestia, is openly homosexual. When a male party member volunteers to be taught the Musik technique by Ustvestia, Ustvestia replies, "He looks cute." Ustvestia then proceeds to charge the male party member less for the lesson than he would charge a female party member."

DOA
"Gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender characters in video and computer games " don't forget the picture of Dead Or Alive!
 * &gt;x&lt;ino 09:09, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Shenmue II - What about Yuan?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the most obvious transgenders of the video game market was Yuan from Shenmue II, so I wonder why it isn't on this article..
 * According to Mobygames, Yuan was changed to a female in the English dub, which would also be good material for the article. Does anyone have a good source for this? Ace of Sevens 08:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

City of Heroes
City of Heroes has done nothing that any other MMORPG has done. Even Everquest and Ulitma Online when they first started had "Gay Guilds." Why not replace the City of Heros thing with something more about multi-player games in General? -Carados 05:06, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Another little issue is the idea that "The result is that some online gay guilds [should be teams or Supergroups] have been created where gay players will network with one other and have a gay pride parade, battling characters controlled by homophobes." It's a nice idea, but to be honest I doubt that anyone's been organised enough to arrange a battle between groups based on opinions about sexuality. PVP in City of Heroes (which wasn't really available anyway until the release of City of Villains in late 2005) is fairly uncommon and opportunistic in my experience. Unless you can cite an article or blog on the subject it would be better to remove the claim. Peyote koyote 04:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Final Fight/Streets of Rage 3
This article does not agree with the article on Final Fight on the genders, claimed or real, of Poison and Roxy. This article states that David Sheff refers to Poison and Roxy as being newhalf - which would be a "shemale" of some variety. The article on Final Fight, among other sites, states that Sheff refers to Poison and Roxy as transvestites - and apparently confirms that Poison (but not Roxy) was, in fact, a transvestite. Just a twitch in terminology for me. HDC@67.191.181.150

A second note: Ash from Streets of Rage 3 was not transexual - just extremely stereotypically homosexual. I've changed the two references to fix this. HDC@67.191.181.150