Talk:LGBT themes in video games/Archive 2

The Legend of Dragoon?
I do not know for sure, for I have just played the german version....But Lavitz and King Albert? Afair, Lavitz had an interest in rose, but were killed before he could tell her. And Albert felt in Love with this princess from the first city of the second disk? ôô

I'm also sure, that it was mentioned, that albert and Lavitz were close friends, since they were childs.

bully?
What about that newfangled Bully game? I'm pretty sure there's homosexuality in there. :D
 * Yup, it's there, and I added info on the Over the Rainbow achievement.VatoFirme (talk) 06:45, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I would like to bring people's attention to the fact that this information is now missing from the article. Wickedjacob (talk) 23:33, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It was moved to List of LGBT characters in video games, a content fork. Diego (talk) 07:02, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
 * gotcha. thanks.  Wickedjacob (talk) 07:59, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

First game made by a transgendered person.
The article says: "It appears that the first game designed by a transgender person was a racing computer game in 1978 titled Wheeler Dealer and it was for the Apple IIGS." This can't be right, as the IIGS didn't exist in 1978. There must be some mistake here; my guess is that the date is wrong. Ben Standeven 06:43, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * It seems I was wrong; according to MobyGames: "Wheeler Dealers (1978), published by Speakeasy Software. Apple II only." Of course, Dani Berry was still a man then... 76.215.118.137 (talk) 05:03, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Summer and Autumn from Outlaw Golf 2
Should they be mentioned?

No mention of Fear Effect 2. No mention of Flea in Chrono Trigger/Chrono Cross. Umm...

Pop Culture Query
''The game Donkey Kong was considered advanced in that it not only gave the hero a name, Jumpman (now known as Mario), but a clear ethnic background, gender, sexual orientation and career. The complexity present in Donkey Kong inspired Nintendo and Sega, two companies that recreated the video game industry with games that presented complex characterisations.''

In that paragraph, where it says that Nintendo and Sega were inspired by the complexity in Donkey Kong to creat their own complex characterisations, isn't worded right. Nitendo actually created the original Donkey Kong game. How they could be inspired by something they created themselves seems a bit off. If someone could word this differently, it would be great.

Fair use rationale for Image:GuyBrushCrossDressing.gif
Image:GuyBrushCrossDressing.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 14:44, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:PhantomOpera.gif
Image:PhantomOpera.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 16:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Birdo is transgender again
Just unlocked the Birdo trophy in Smash Bros. Brawl. It describes Birdo has having an "indeterminate gender", and that some say it wants to be called Birdetta - pronoun used to describe Birdo is "it". Added to article.VatoFirme (talk) 06:45, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * By the way here's one link for the SMB2 instruction manual: http://jarcas.dreamhosters.com/rdocs/Super_Mario_Bros_2_-_Manual_-_NES.pdf,

although this isn't the original one - the sentence "He would rather be called Birdetta" has been censored already in this version. I will keep searching for a scan of the original copy but this should help for now.VatoFirme (talk) 06:50, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay and p.s., I noticed an attempt to change the wording from "transgender" to "thinking he is a girl" was reverted, however the first edit was correct and the revert was not - the instruction booklet never uses the term "transgender", it literally says he thinks he is a girl. Using the term transgender implies the creators knew the term and understood what it means and intentionally created a cartoon character as having a transgender identity, which I think is very presumptuous and problematic, and not likely to be true at all.  It also implies the manual contained the word "transgender" which it did not.VatoFirme (talk) 07:01, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Sigh. P.p.s.  Just wanted to add that in case my link to the manual scan confuses anyone, you need to know that Birdo's and Ostro's names were mixed up in the early English translations, and obviously Nintendo fixed the problem since then.VatoFirme (talk) 07:15, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You should add that footnote into the text - "(Birdo's and Ostro's names were mixed up in the early English translations, Nintendo has corrected the problem since.)" Benji boi 18:51, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Shannara
Granted, it's been a few years since I've played Shannara, but I don't remember anything that implied he was gay at all...is this an accurate reference or is my memory just failing me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.198.241.62 (talk) 21:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't it NOA, not Nintendo?
Wasn't it specifically Nintendo of America that had all those rules, and not Nintendo itself? Belasted (talk) 01:52, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Gold and Mr. Silver
What, no mention of God Hand's first mini bosses? (Momus (talk) 01:26, 3 April 2009 (UTC))

Harvest Moon and Animal Crossing?
Should Harvest Moon be on this article,it isn't? If you play the japanese version of Cute,you can "Best Friend" a special girl. She has all the same dialogue as her boy version counterpart,all the romantic events are in,you pretty much get married,and you can have a child. In the japanese versions of Animal Crossing,Blanca,Saharah and Gracie are male. 98.14.15.12 (talk) 16:58, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Fox from Bloody Roar
Should Fox from Bloody Roar be included in this article? He was very effeminate and wore skimpy clothing that was quite clearly intended to be worn by women, or would generally be considered to be women's clothing. DeeJayDragon (talk) 02:07, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Wipe the page?
While the subject is structurally sound, the writing is not. It is effectively an OR essay. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 02:47, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Note that after one week, if there is no significant attempt to repair the article, I will go through and remove any uncited information. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 02:49, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Turn this article into a list?
As this article stands, it is essentially a list of LGBT characters in videogames, with small amounts of original research commentary. The issues with the article highlighted above could be best resolved by simply turning it into List of LGBT characters in video games, and removing the OR content. (It would still need more sources, though.) Robofish (talk) 00:42, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

tekken and grand theft auto 4: the ballad of gay tony
why is there no mention of that game in this article, i wonder ... 85.181.131.19 (talk) 23:37, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

i also think that 'violet' from the tekken series could be gay 85.181.131.19 (talk) 23:40, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

This is an old topic, but I have seen these games pop up in the edits -- but never with sources. The article is not a place for speculation or listing personal conclusions, and GTA's approach to homosexuality is particularly problematic enough that any "GTA says gay is ok" or "GTA hates gays" statements should NOT be placed in the article without proper citation. Wickedjacob (talk) 18:13, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Incorrectly labeled characters
Many of the characters listed here are not gay - they adhere to gay stereotypes, but are not gay. Cross-dressing is not gay. This list needs to be edited by actual gay people, not heterosexual teenagers who think that dressing in drag or acting like a woman makes a character gay.

```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.11.68.77 (talk) 02:56, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * There's certainly some work to be done here, particularly when it comes to actually citing this information, but editors don't need to be part of the LGBT community to help fix this article. Someoneanother 17:42, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Please resist the urge to spin
As a gay gamer who has been playing video games since the 1976 Fairchild, I can say that I have been FAR from impressed with the representation of gay identity in video gaming. I can tolerate ridiculous stereotypical depictions of gay folk, but what is worse is the systematic censorship. Classifying mere gay identity as "mature/sexual/adult" is one way of enabling retailers like Wal-Mart to de-gay their shelves and content creators to de-gay their products, citing sales concerns. It is patently discriminatory to act as if being openly gay is "more sexual" than being openly hetero, yet people blithely accept this double-standard all the time.

While there isn't much news coverage to be found about this, the Christian Right is driving quite a bit of this. Their scare tactics routinely include trying to convince parents that gays are after their children. Having openly gay characters in video games, especially when they're not villains and fools, is a threat to their system of using us as pawns in their quest for power.

The Sims proved people wrong who declared "only hetero males play video games". Besides, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy to make products designed to appeal to the taste of one demographic and proclaim that others simply have no interest in gaming in the first place. It's quite convenient. How much of this dearth of gay content (and I don't mean token content) is due to the fact that most developers are heterosexual men?

So, please resist the urge to spin the history of gays-in-gaming as being much rosier than it is. Even The Sims titles censor us, making us "convert" people into homosexuals (a very offensive thing to force a gay person to do, let me tell you) and force characters into romantic interactions. A token non-foolish non-evil gay character here and there does not equate to an industry in which people like myself truly feel there are products that are non-narrow. And, frankly, the phrase "the pink dollar" itself is rather offensive. The money I earn is green. When I touch it it doesn't transform due to "the gay". Historically-minded folks may also want to remember that pink was the color for boys and blue was the color for girls in the 19th century. I would hope that developers will start seeing an end to heterosexism and homophobia as being more about creative freedom than cash. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.133.101.211 (talk) 06:20, 2 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Refer to WP:SOAP and WP:NPOV. Anyone attempts to "spin" this (or any other) article are against WP policy, including homophobia/heterosexism as well as pro-LGBT advocacy.  Let's keep this article neutral.  OzW (talk) 01:54, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Guilty Gear: Bridget
The notion that this character "is maybe shown to have strong homosexual tendencies" is not corroborated by the game's script. The two instances in the script where Bridget (male) makes any request to do as much as spend time with another character are with Dizzy (female), which occurs in one of Bridget's endings in his scenario when he invites her to visit him at his parents' house, and with May (female), which occurs in one of May's endings when he asks her to teach him more about bounties. Just as most male crossdressers are straight, effeminate/feminine/girly males are usually straight as well, and while it may not be appropriate to presume Bridget is necessarily straight, there is no evidence to suggest he is gay. I am rewriting the entire excerpt on Bridget and moving it to the general 2000s section, as he is still notable for his non-normative expression. Kaelin Alvein (talk) 07:30, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Attempting POV cleanup
I've attempted to clean up some of the soapboxing and make the article more NPOV. If you have any questions or concerns regarding any of my edits, feel free to bring them up here for clarification/discussion. OzW (talk) 02:46, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Split section
Proposal to split "List of LGBT characters in video games" section into its own page. There's more than enough info in that section to warrant its own page. Both pages would still need serious clean-up and sourcing, but the separation should make clean-up a bit easier. OzW (talk) 04:10, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, List of LGBT characters in video games or List of video games with LGBT characters? The list's organization is inconsistent at the moment, so let's pick one and stick with it.  My vote is for List of video games with LGBT.characters, since it'd be less work to get to that point. OzW (talk) 04:37, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not really concerned whether it's split or not, but I think that the list should be removed from this article either way. Harry Blue5 (talk • contribs) 18:29, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I support splitting the list away. As for whether the list should be of video games or of characters, I think the current chronological order is best served by the list of video games, and a list of characters should be grouped by video-game anyway, so I support List of video games with LGBT characters. Diego Moya (talk) 10:06, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, someone here doesn't know the rules right. No one should make these types of lists. They're inappropriate.Bread Ninja (talk) 21:18, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
 * List section should be "REMOVED" without a SPLIT.Bread Ninja (talk) 21:19, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
 * So, anyone got anything else to say about this? What are the opinions on removing without a split? – Harry Blue5 (talk • contribs) 14:40, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Since User:Bread Ninja hasn't given a reason why content should be removed, his argument amounts to WP:IDONTLIKEIT and we shouldn't take it into account. Thus, per the other opinions there's cons::ensus to move the list into List of video games with LGBT characters (unless Bread Ninja wants to construct a more coherent argument, that is). Diego Moya (talk) 14:46, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * And if anybody has doubts that LGBT characters in video games might not be a notable topic, see . Diego Moya (talk) 20:13, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I highly disagree on splitting characters into a list for simply navigational purposes. Its not informative at all. A list of
 * I think it's fairly certain that LGBT chaacters in video games as a whole is a notable topic, the only problem that Bread Ninja has is a list of VG characters who are LGBT. – Harry Blue5 (talk • contribs) 22:09, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Lists of notable topics are legitimate. Diego Moya (talk) 22:36, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thats what we call "listcruft". A list of a notable topic relating to media is clearly not acceptable. If it was a topic of LGBT characters in media, than yes. But why only in video games?Bread Ninja (talk) 23:52, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Because LGBT characters in video games is a notable topic by itself? This list is a subclass of the list you propose. There are precedent in other lists of fictional characters classified per film, radio and TV, per modern written fiction and mythology; the list that will be created with this split is at the very same level as the others.
 * Besides, "listcruft" is not a reason to oppose the creation of the list; there are at least eleven criteria by which you may not like this list. Which ones do you consider that may apply to this case? Please give a reasoned argument, not just a general "we shouldn't have it" if you want your position to carry some weight. Don't just assert that your opinion is clearly true when there's nothing at all clear about it. Diego Moya (talk) 15:17, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I went ahead and made the split, since there's consensus to remove it from this article anyway. If someone still opposes, the list can be nominated for deletion. I finally changed my mind and used the name LGBT characters in video games after seeing the other related lists. Diego Moya (talk) 19:34, 15 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Could you wait until someone replies first? A list of LGBT characters in video game is best suited to be a category. They aren't connected directly, so making a list wouldn't really be defined as a notable topic. theres no strong consensus here either, 2 saying removed, 1 who proposed and 1 who supports it.Bread Ninja (talk) 20:37, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Basically theres no consensus to "split". it was to "remove".Bread Ninja (talk) 21:09, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a technicality, do you really want to argue about it? There was agreement to not have the characters in this article, and they are not in it. There was no agreement to lose the content and it's not lost (Harry Blue5 say that he didn't care, BTW). The situation is the same as before, but half the work is done. If you don't agree with my actions, well, this is a wiki so it's easy to revert. Though I would prefer that you instead discuss the reasons why you feel that Wikipedia would be better if it didn't have this content because, frankly, you're really far away from convincing me. (That content isn't suitable for a category, since there's not enough material to have a whole article for each character). Diego Moya (talk) 22:10, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * its not a technicality. When one says removing it, they don't mean splitting it.They aren't connected at all, the only thing they have in common is that they are LGBT and the type of media, but other than that, what else do they have? Why make a list of all the LGBT characters in video games? its just common sense not to do that. The list of characters that aren't in the same video game, not even in the same series go into this list just because they happen to be LGBT. And again, listcruft says it all.

You really need to learn the rules more. Just us isn't going anywhere. And you haven't notified the rest of the other wikiprojects to get a stronger consensus. We don't have a strong consensus for "split" like i said.Bread Ninja (talk) 23:04, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, comments were sought on WP:VG so.. I agree with splitting the content, but not with the speed it was done. It would have been better to seek more input and wait a little longer before making the jump. This talk page and the list page need split templates (see WP:SPLIT). This page needs renaming, or additional content needs to be spun out, it's currently about LGBT and video games in general, IE development by the LGBT community, not just characters within games. The new list should be named, IMO, List of video games with LGBT characters, since it's linking to video games rather than characters for the most part. Lastly I think the list is more appropraite than a category, categories are fine for when the subject of the article in its entirity matches with the category (IE 'banana' in a 'fruit' category), but in this case the LGBT characters are a small aspect of a larger work. The character details can be laid out in a list, but not in a category. Someoneanother 00:15, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, while we're on the subject of the list, I would strongly recommend converting it into a sortable table format like List of zombie video games, which would make it both more informative (additional fields for data on the game) and easier to read. Someoneanother 00:25, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I highly disagree on splitting it. Listing LGBT characters off video games is indeed rather trivial. 1) it's not notable at all, and i know it wont be. there is no general references about a general list of LGBT characters, and merely listing them here is the only thing that makes this about LGBT "characters" in video games. 2) This article is definitely more about LGBT content overall than specific characters. It also has a lot of original research. If there was any specific characters that made an impact in video game history about LGBT content, than its worthy of mentioning here but you have to verify it, merely listing them on here just because they're LGBT does not mean they deserve to be mentioned. But theres more to it, you're right about the article being poorly written. It only talk about policies and content about LGBT.Bread Ninja (talk) 00:56, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not the strongest list, because they're elements of a larger whole, but it's not a weak list either since the subject of LGBT depictions in video games does receive press, particularly in 'grown-up' gaming magazines like Edge and Games TM. I seriously doubt the list would be deleted if it was sent to AFD, which to me suggests that just removing the content would not be a good thing. It can and should be a relevant research tool. The major issue is verifying the information and weeding out "well this guy's kinda camp" entries, which is doable -  etc. Someoneanother 01:36, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The list is weak in the sense that it just merely lists LGBT characters that have been noted in the past. But overall, don't serve a specific goal in the article other than just listing them and splitting it wasn't the right choice as its not notable nor long enough. It's better to put each LGBT character mention in their respected series articles than to compile them together just because they're loosely related.Bread Ninja (talk) 05:29, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining which specific concerns you have against the list, that makes discussion far more productive. Now that you've explained yourself I can see the merit in your opinion. I could agree to place these characters in some other format instead of a list if the alternative was better organized; I will not agree to simply delete the information available as was first suggested. That said, I still think having this character list is the best option, either as a section in LGBT_characters_in_video_games or as a separate article-list. The topic of LGBT characters is notable, so having a list is coherent with policy (Wikipedia lists don't need that "LIST of topic X" be notable by itself; if it were, there wouldn't be lists at all). There are three major problems I find with your approach which a list can solve. If you propose reasonable solutions to them, I wouldn't mind having a different organization: In summary, I think the problems of not having a list that I've stated overweight IMO the problems you find in having it, which are mainly of compliance with some written rules that are not Wikipedia policy (listcruft) and some concerns about notability that I don't think have the importance that you give them. Let's work together to find a solution that solves everybody's worries. Diego Moya (talk) 11:04, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) There are characters that don't have a suitable article to be placed in. For example the gay barber in Silver Load should be deleted even when we have WP:VERIFIABLE information about it (the game content is the primary source where it can be found, which is enough for factual statements).
 * 2) The most important concern: placing a description of a gay character in the article about the game itself is likely to be a violation of WP:DUE weight and if the game article is short and the gay character doesn't contribute to the game's notability. Articles like Circuit's Edge or Moonmist don't have a place to describe LGBT characters, so we should delete them even though they are verifiable content that belong to a notable topic.
 * 3) Having the characters distributed in articles would make finding them more difficult. Sure, you could create categories to locate them but then you would miss all semblance of organization; the current grouping by decade ('80s, '90s, 2000s, '10s) and class (transgender, fighting games) would be lost unless you also create sub-categories, and there are currently too few of them so that would be Wp:Overcategorization. Moreover, with categories the reader should pogo-sticking back and forth between articles and trying to locate in which part of the article is the LGBT character described. Now you have a list that can be read in one sitting.
 * Not exactly. Unlike Batman, where the influences were strong enough to affect an entire section based on the study of batman itself . If one group only gives honorable mention, but doesn't exactly affect much than that one lil group, then what the point in having it? Listcruft has changed over the past, but the general idea is over-listing, and it is definitely NOT notable as a separate list. And it's not about being "organized" even though without this info, the article itself would equally organized. It depends on how much information and impact you can dig up from the characters. if its just a mention here or two, its not notable despite being verified. If the content is specifically bigger and impact and shows how LGBT content has changed. than it can be mentioned. But you would have to find information overall, than just individually. and that's the problem, making individual pieces appear as if it were overall, but its not. its just information put together and using original research. the major problem about this article is that it's not really about characters (even if you decide to merge it back)Bread Ninja (talk) 11:31, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you're making incorrect assumption there. The content of articles doesn't need to be notable by itself, as WP:N only applies to articles, not content. It's enough that the content is verifiable and related to the topic to have it in Wikipedia. As long as the characters are verifiable as LGBT, and LGBT characters is a notable topic, that's not original research nor it's against notability either. I agree that we should contentrate at characters for which there's more information than its in-game existence, for example critical commentary by game reviewers. But that's an argument to expand the list contents, not to remove what we already have. Diego Moya (talk) 12:49, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * P.S. However, if you concern is that we should find more information about the general topic of LGBT characters, I think that's doable too. LGBT is a big topic in gender studies and there are academic papers that talk about video games in particular. 13:01, 20 June 2011 (UTC)Diego Moya (talk) 13:02, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not true. that's like saying every stub-class article is notable just for what little is verified. And I'm 100% against a list article for LGBT characters in video games or any media. The point of the main article is to talk about lGBT content/characters in video games as a more informative way to show how LGBT has affected video games over time. the list of LGBT characters merely mentioned but don't really tell us how they affected the main article makes the list trivial. And splitting it isn't a good idea unless the main article was too long, which it's not. So unless you find notable mention and impact each character has done, it can be added in this article, however those that are merely confirmed as LGBT characters aren't notable enough. If this article just mentions these characters without any ground, it'll affect its chances of getting to C or B-class.Bread Ninja (talk) 23:25, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You can have mention of impact of notable characters in the LGBT characters in video games article to make it B-class, and then you can have not-notable but verifiable characters in the list, because notability is not required for content because Wikipedia is not paper. Read the Notability guideline. See the part where it states that "These notability guidelines only outline how suitable a topic is for its own article or list. They do not directly limit the content of an article or list". Meditate on it until you grasp its meaning, because this guideline contradicts everything you're arguing for here. Notability and WP:NNC also support my position. You're the one who has yet to learn about Wikipedia rules, young Padawan ;-) Diego Moya (talk) 06:50, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, its rather necessary for at least C-class. And again, just noting that a Video game character and verifying it, doesn't mean its actually notable. there are very little references in it either way, and its best not to split into a list. Why don't you meditate? a list of LGBT characters in VG isn't connected to LGBT characters in VG as List of Naruto characters splitting from "naruto" or etc. etc.


 * The list-article isn't directly connected as other main articles are to their respected list-articles. short mention of LGBT characters in VG history without properly connecting to its main-article? not really notable. Just loosely connected, only one or two sources that verified a couple characters. that's why I'm saying either make the characters on here work, or not really. A good example is LGBT themes in comics. At least other list0articles of other characters limit the number of characters for how often the character appeared or how much impact it gaved.Bread Ninja (talk) 07:27, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Limiting the number of characters would be a good thing if the list size was unmanageable. This is not the case now as the number of characters listed is relatively small. I say we should cross that bridge when we come to it, i.e. don't define a new inclusion criteria until the current one produces an explosion in size (which is not likely to happen soon). For now it's OK to keep all verifiable characters in the list as there aren't too many of them. Diego Moya (talk) 16:29, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You're missing the point yet again. Limiting the number is too show the most relevant ones. A list of characters doesn't always list every single one that appeared, and they don't limit them for space issues. The point is to merge it back into this article, but instead of a list we put it into prose with the history of LGBT themes in video games (if the characters are relevant enough. Just an empty mention won't do much help).Bread Ninja (talk) 22:40, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The fact is that I agree with you in this point you're making (I more or less said the same thing at 12:49 UTC, 20 June 2011 ), and if you want to expand this article with well-referenced notable characters I will support it. But then that doesn't imply the other point - that of deleting the separate list of verifiable characters; this deletion is the only point were we disagree, but your arguing style makes it difficult to get consensus even when we are both in agreement about the essentials, which is expanding Wikipedia with good content. You have to learn that the goal you want (in this case, describing notable characters) can be achieved in several ways; if you insist in getting things how you want them as the only possible option, you'll keep stumbling with other people's opinions. Diego Moya (talk) 10:33, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Not exactly. you see, i am making 1 point. you think I'm making 2 points. What i want can only be done one way. I'm saying we should merge the list, with only the essential characters, that really made the topic. No list whatsoever. My reason? 1) they're not connected at all by series, only by sexuality and media, but other than that, they don't have the same creator, nor appeared in the same series, and listing LGBT specific characters from a specific series would still be just as trivial as listing them in general. It will just be a list of characters that were verified that they were LGBT (but overall don't make up notability for the list). 2) Completely trivial. A list article only to support the main article we already have (which in this case shouldn't be about every single mention of LGBT characters that appeared in video game history). And again, just being "verified" as LGBT isn't the problem. Its the purpose of the "List of LGBT characters in video games" that makes the idea of this list completely bad idea. And don't think i'm not aware of the other LGBT-character lists aswell. I also plan to nominate those for deletion once i get proper consensus on this one. You need to understand what makes a true notable list than a list just for the sake of having one. And it is for that sake. Idk if this is out of LGBT bias or not, but the idea of a list of LGBT characters in Video games (or any media)is ridiculous.
 * Why not make list of Women in comics since there is an article about Women in comics? you see, you're idea of lists is really warped. these list are too specific and they dont mention what impact it did to Video game history. and if it did, then it'd be merged here, not stay as a list.Bread Ninja (talk) 11:06, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I perfectly understand all you said. I just simply don't agree. Diego Moya (talk) 11:53, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

then tell me on a scale 1 to 10. how relevant/useful/necessary is this list and why?Bread Ninja (talk) 11:59, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say 6/10. Tying all games 'relevant' to this article down into paragraphs is not easily done unless sources are found which do precisely that, in which case we're left trying to slot bits of gravel together to build a wall. A separate list avoids that, the bits of gravel are dropped on top of each other down a tube to form a different structure. With all lists of this type (to me at least) there are 2 questions: 1) can the contents be verified and 2) is it a relevant research tool and/or navigational aid. The content should be verifiable because magazines have published articles on this subject. The list isn't trivial because it demonstrates how LGBT characters are represented in games and to what extent. If the list was changed into a sortable table, cleaned up and cited then I can see researchers using it. I don't agree that the list is ridiculous, far less meaningful ones with less potential get past AFD, though at this point I would suggest that if you wish for the content to be deleted then it would be best to throw the discussion open via AFD, since there doesn't seem to be any agreement on redacting the content here and nobody else is joining the discussion. Someoneanother 12:30, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say that, as long as the section about notable characters that Bread Ninja is not in place, List of LGBT characters in video games‎‎ has the advantage that it's already written. That's an improvement over a Wikipedia with no list of characters. Diego Moya (talk) 16:11, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * A portrayal of characters of sexuality, gender, nationality in a specific type of media is one thing as coverage of the general will occur and examples will be mentioned. But making a general list of all of the possible examples (no matter what the quantity) is ridiculous. "A relevant research tool/or navigational aid" isn't a strong enough reason, especially if none of the characters have their own article (and if they did, it would be a category) and the research is best suited in this article. The list is 100% trivial to the general reader. those who are hung over LGBT content/themes/characters in specific media articles. Here's the thing, you're trying to use the same reason i'm using for merging the relevant characters onto here. I should probably just AFD the articles just to prove my point. And i really hate to make such a pointy show. But technically, it does fail notability and the content was to be removed from this article because it didn't belong. There wasn't strong enough consensus for a direct split.Bread Ninja (talk) 16:30, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The list doesn't need to be a list of all the examples of LGBT characters in video games; it can be the list of all characters that we have now. If the list grows to unmanageable size, there's time to revisit the inclusion criteria. And why do you think "being a navigational aid" is not a strong reason? Lists are created as navigation devices as one of their main purposes. If you think an AfD is the best way to prove your point, go ahead; I won't calll WP:POINT on you. But I think our effors would be best spent first trying to find reliable references for the characters already in the list; many of them are likely to have been discussed in media. Diego Moya (talk) 16:39, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * (And should I remember you that there wasn't consensus against split either?Diego Moya (talk) 16:40, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

BTW there's no reason why a list of all the known items in a group should be ridiculous; it may very well be extremely helpful ;-) Diego Moya (talk) 16:51, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You claim I'm wiki-lawyering, but you're clearly the one doing so by adding in technicalities and such. That didn't give you enough reason to split it. And i'm not the one who made the bold edit (which didn't give any chance to revert yours).


 * Here's the thing. it is a list of characters that aren't connected by series, only by media and sexuality. The list is far too restricting and yet and far too vague in purpose. Why isn't it strong enough for navigational purposes? Because actual list used for navigation purposes are list of other articles we already have. Things like List of Playstation 2 games are actual navigation list. this is clearly just examples of verified LGBT characters (and again, verified does not mean notable, and you know that), I say examples because that article only focuses on that aspect LGBT that happen to be in video games. Even if we verify every single character on there and trim out the others that couldn't be verified. What good would the actual list do? So we got some that are really important and then we got those just mentioned in there just because they're LGBT. It's just bias to think something like that is relevant enough for a list article. If we took the example of LGBT themes in comics and American mainstream comics, this article would look alot cleaner. They have "examples" put into the prose because there was enough to be able to verify something bigger than those characters.


 * You're also using WP:OTHERCRAP. That article you gave shows a table merged with the main article. Not only that, but each element has it's own article. you're not proving you're point, because it's rather short-sighted.Bread Ninja (talk) 17:14, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) "only by media and sexuality"? Why is this criterion not enough to have a list? (Do you have something against media and sexuality?) :-P Lists are supposed to link to elements in the list, irrespective of their respective notability. That's what the list would be good for. Yet again, notability is not a required criterion for content, please stop using it this way in your arguments.
 * 2) My arguments in this occasion are not even directly based in Wikipedia policy; I'm linking to them only to refute your arguments, to show that your opinions are inconsistent with some established guidelines (and that because you exhorted me to "learn the rules more", which is not entirely civil on your part). I'm not giving a to-the-letter attention to the guidelines against their spirit.
 * 3) And hey, the link to the elements table was tongue-in-cheek; don't take yourself so seriously, it's bad for your health ;-)
 * So, what are you going to do, or suggest we should do at the Article space in order to improve Wikipedia? Diego Moya (talk) 22:07, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

OK i think i'm getting no where with you. i'm just going to AFD the article if you clearly don't see whats wrong, or you do but disagree that its wrong.Bread Ninja (talk) 22:49, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Images for Roxy and Poison
There's have been some disagreements about the validity of the fair use rationale for files FinalFight2.gif ‎and FinalFight2Sega.gif at this page. Can user Hammersoft please explain here why you think the visual depiction of Roxy and Poison doesn't improve the reader's understanding of the characters? Diego Moya (talk) 16:17, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The images are not discussed in the text of the article using any secondary sourced discussion. While the characters themselves are mentioned, there's no discussion of the images themselves. WP:NFCC #8 notes that an image should not be used if its absence would be detrimental to understanding the article. The article reads the same with or without the images, as the text isn't tied to the images. Further, even if you could find secondary sources to support inclusion of one of the images, including both is wholly unnecessary. While the two images depict two different characters, the images are essentially identical in terms of any encyclopedic information that could be conveyed. As is, the images both fail WP:NFCC and need to be removed. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:22, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your clarification. You say that the article reads the same without the images, and I disagree. The text mentions the "provocative clothing" of the characters, and that they both were mistaken as females; the interested reader can't evaluate by herself to what level the clothing was provocative nor how people could get characters gender wrong without seeing an image of the characters-so in this case the image inclusion improves verifiability with a primary source that's self-descriptive (one image worth more than a thousand words); I've added a third party reference for the clothing anyway. You're right that both images are quite similar and that maybe only one of them are needed; the other one could be replaced with the Sid and Roxy in Final Fight.PNG image found at Final Fight, which depicts the replacement of Roxy and Poison with other versions of the characters, something that's also discussed in the text.
 * At which point do you consider that an image "increases readers' understanding of the topic"? Do you require that the image as a whole be discussed in text, or could it be enough that the text discussed some elements shown in the image? Where do you draw the line? Diego Moya (talk) 21:20, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Move to LGBT themes in video games
I propose changing the title to LGBT themes in video games, since this article is not specifically about characters. Company policies, marketing, industry and Asian culture speak more about game makers and players than about game characters, and the article could expand its coverage on them. I've found a wealth of references to explore at the Issue 222 of The Escapist, with four main articles and lots of external links.

The LGBT themes title is used by other similar articles; if there are no objections or some other alternate title, I'll make the move. Diego (talk) 16:08, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
 * No commentary, so I'll make the move today. Diego (talk) 09:53, 18 July 2011 (UTC)


 * support it.Bread Ninja (talk) 10:01, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

MIT Video Game Provides LGBTQ-Friendly Content
http://alum.mit.edu/pages/sliceofmit/2011/10/10/mit-video-game-provides-lgbtq-friendly-content ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  07:08, 19 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Good link. See also press coverage at Gamasutra Diego (talk) 07:33, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Links Removed July 2012
IP address 95.34.77.48 removed a large number of links on July 6, 2012. I can't tell if it was vandalism or if there was some reasoning involved, but I thought a note should be made here to make people aware of it. Wickedjacob (talk) 10:07, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Category:Video games featuring female protagonists
Category:Video games featuring female protagonists, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Liz Read! Talk! 11:45, 7 October 2013 (UTC)