Talk:LGB Alliance/Archive 10

First sentence: opposed to transgender rights movement
I proposed this as a first sentence:


 * The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group founded in 2019 to exclude transgender people from LGBT Movements and to oppose the transgender rights movement.

For some months the first sentence has instead been


 * The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group founded in 2019 in opposition to the policies of LGBT rights charity Stonewall on transgender issues.

Obviously the high amount of attention to this organization is for one reason only: it "seeks to exclude transgender people from LGBT Movements and to oppose the transgender rights movement". There is not a disagreement or dispute here. The LGB Alliance exists for this purpose.

I am aware of previous discussions such as the one at Talk:LGB_Alliance/Archive_6. In this and other discussions I see various commentators saying that something is in error, but not identifying what it is. The error is failure to say what the organization does. I think this is it.

Does anyone here think I am mistaken in my interpretation of the consensus of the sources? Speak up!  Bluerasberry  (talk)  19:30, 3 October 2022 (UTC) s
 * "Exclude transgender people from LGBT Movements" is a nonsensical phrase; if the movements are defined with the "T" in them, they don't exclude them obviously. Forming an organization focusing on the "LGB" part of the acronym is merely stating the purpose of this particular organization, not excluding anybody from other parts of the greater movement, any more than organizations like Mermaids focusing on the "T" are excluding LGB from the movement. &#42;Dan T.* (talk) 20:30, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Sadly, the reliable sources seem to disagree with your reasoning about this. Newimpartial (talk) 20:32, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Then they probably aren't very reliable. It's an editor's job to call out obviously incorrect sources, regardless of their reputation, and contradicting basic logic is pretty damning. It's a shame that reliable-source status is so badly gamed right now.
 * This is why not having a subjects words in their article is actually anti-encyclopedic, because it makes the encyclopedia so easy to manipulate. From a cursory examination of LGBA's homepage (https://lgballiance.org.uk/) they only use LGB and no other variation. InverseZebra (talk) 20:19, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * If you prefer your own reading of WP:PRIMARY sources over reliable WP:SECONDARY sources, you might be more comfortable writing for an encyclopaedia with different policies than those of enwiki. Newimpartial (talk) 22:51, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * It's only painful when watching it be abused by people who game what's a reliable source to avoid actually addressing the subject's words, as is the case here.
 * I'm not saying we should trust the subject to write their own article, but if we're putting in a criticism section we'd better be sure it addresses words the subject has actually said and the best way to do that is to include their words directly, especially when it's a statement of intent. "We the LGBA feel X and will do Y". That, when archived and quoted, is what we're missing here. InverseZebra (talk) 15:36, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
 * , I think your interpretation of the sources is very much accurate and dislike the framing of the lead sentence as well. Loki (talk) 21:12, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
 * What sources support "exclude transgender people from LGBT Movements"? As far as I can tell they thought Stonewall, specifically, should have stayed LGB, and now think of themselves as an LGB movement, as a separate matter from other groups that are LGBT (or even basically just T). Crossroads -talk- 06:46, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I'd agree "Exclude transgender people from LGBT Movements" is confusing as a phrase, but the current wording is a bit vague about what they opposed. Instead of "...in opposition to the policies of LGBT rights charity Stonewall on transgender issues." maybe something like "...in opposition to the extension of the charity Stonewall's focus from LGB rights to LGBT ones"?. JaggedHamster (talk) 11:42, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * "Gay rights group was set up ‘to promote transphobic activity’, court told" - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/sep/12/gay-rights-group-was-set-up-to-promote-transphobic-activity-court-told Selfisekai (talk) 13:06, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * ‘Court told’ i.e. this is an allegation made by one side in a legal case. Therefore, it is not a suitable source. Wait until the case has been completely heard, and there has been a judgment. Sweet6970 (talk) 13:39, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree with the general gist of your proposed change but believe it could be better phrased along the lines of: The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group known for its opposition to the transgender rights movement and the belief that there is a "conflict between trans rights and the rights of [ cisgender ] LGB people". Primarily because their anti-trans advocacy should be the lead and that they attempt to separate trans people from cisgender LGB people is a part of that rather than the other way around.
 * Some scholarly sources to help plead the case:
 * Webster 2022: most recently, such public conflicts at the intersection of transgender and lesbian identities have manifested in movements and organizations specifically intended to separate sexual identities from gender identities (e.g., the British charity and advocacy group LGB Alliance).
 * Monque 2021: TERFs are not feminists, because they actively endorse the oppression of trans women (and sometimes other gender groups). Worryingly, some trans-exclusionary LGB movements have begun to form around TERF ideology (for example, the LGB Alliance in the United Kingdom and the Red LGB movement in Spain).
 * Simon 2021: LGB Alliance was founded in 2019 to oppose LGBTQ+ charity Stonewall's pro-transgender inclusion policies. LGB Alliance’s text (n.d.) is their official statement of their position against the GRA reform, in which they claim allowing people to self-identify “would spread confusion and would inevitably be a threat to our rights” and that there is a “conflict between trans rights and the rights of LGB people” which has “been exacerbated because of a radical change in the demands of trans people”. (Emphasis added)
 * Mackay 2021: These issues are taken up by the UK anti-trans-inclusion organizations like Get The L Out, Lesbian Rights Alliance and the LGB Alliance, for example, which I mentioned earlier in this chapter.
 * I'd also like to point out that here, admittedly in an opinion piece, the author states The plan to separate trans people from their feminist and LGB allies was initially conceived shortly after the Supreme Court made marriage equality the law of the land in 2015. A key document developed by the anti-LGBT group Family Research Council signaled the anti-queer movement’s effort to “drop the T” from the LGBTQ acronym. Since then, a British group called the LGB Alliance, which pushes an exclusively anti-trans message while claiming to be a charity for lesbian and gay people, has popped up and even received charity status in the U.K. That seperating the T from LGB is a far-right tactic is covered by the Southern Poverty Law Center in more detail here
 * At the risk of opening another can of worms, if someone collects the sources we could describe them as anti-trans in the lead. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 14:27, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * You reference Monque 2021 which is clearly an opinion piece, not factual, as it claims a specific view of feminism is incorrect which is obviously not a fact-based statement.
 * > TERFs are not feminists
 * Also, to use "TERF" correctly they'd need to establish that these people identify as feminists at all, let alone they have radical (academic meaning) beliefs. Using it the way they do is clearly a slur as much as any directed at transfolk and should show how "reliable" they are as a source.
 * You then reference Simon 2021  but it does not say what you say it does, despite you bolding it.
 * > there is a “conflict between trans rights and the rights of LGB people”
 * Your source doesn't claim they are opposing trans rights, only that they say "Stonewall's pro-transgender inclusion policies" conflict with homosexual rights. If there is a conflict then they're pretty clearly allowed to advocate for their rights.
 * Why isn't it enough to say "The LGBA opposes trans-inclusive policies because it feels they conflict with LGB rights"? Why advocate for poorly-supported straw men? InverseZebra (talk) 21:20, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * If you are going to dismiss a peer-reviewed academic source as clearly an opinion piece, the object of your ire ought to be WP's policy framework for reliable sourcing, and not the content of this article. Editors are not really supposed to factor in their original interpretations of primary sources in determining article content. Newimpartial (talk) 22:55, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm explaining to another editor how they should evaluate sources so that they may participate in this as well. There is no single definition of feminism and so a source that claims that feminism - not libfem, or radfem, or xyzfem, but all of feminism - feels a certain way, is wrong. Perhaps this source explains this elsewhere but if so to quote them meaningfully we need to include both pieces.
 * As for calling a source an opinion, I will do so whenever one ventures from the factual discussion of a source and goes into lala land. As I said earlier, other editors are gaming reliable sources for exactly this intent - that they libel someone without actually presenting enough facts for anyone to question their claim. A "reliable source" is an approved starting point, but that status does not mean every article on the site is reliable, even in a given topic, or that they will remain so going forward. Editor need to read the source critically and see if it's even saying what it seems to be, if it's properly sourced itself, etc, etc. You are actually explicitly wrong, because editors are expected to be the final, not only, judge of the fitness of a reference. The last line of defense. Read even the context_matters section, this could not be accomplished without the editor applying their own personal judgement.
 * For these purposes, these sources are clearly biased and thus unacceptable. InverseZebra (talk) 15:54, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Once again, stating that peer-reviewed academic work goes into lala land and should therefore be ignored as opinion is pure venting in your part; it is simply not the job of editors to determine whether a reliable source has properly sourced itself, and your POV axe-grinding on this topic is a perfect example of why editors are supposed to rely on policy rather than WP:OR to judge the fitness of a reference.
 * Of course there is no single definition of feminism, but that doesn't mean that scholars using a particular definition of feminism in a specific piece of work are totally unreliable. It is also unreasonable for you to conclude that RS cannot be cited when they include an argument that certain positions are contrary to feminist principles and values. The slight of hand you are doing between fact and opinion - essentially, accusing sources of being biased in service of your own biases - isn't based on WP policy and really ought to be ignored in determining article content. Newimpartial (talk) 17:53, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Nonsense. Editors vote on what sources are reliable so of course they're capable of judging which sources are reliable. If they weren't expected to use their judgement this voting mechanism wouldn't make any sense.
 * > Of course there is no single definition of feminism, but that doesn't mean that scholars using a particular definition of feminism in a specific piece of work are totally unreliable.
 * The entire topic, in which you accuse me of axe-grinding despite your hundreds of posts in, is disputed. So yes, when we both know that the definition of woman and feminism is up in the air, an "academic" attempting to define it for one side is obviously talking out their ass - unless they qualify which position they're speaking for. That source is no more reliable that Putin on the topic of Ukraine's borders.
 * A wise editor would skip using that article as a source because it's not reliable in this context, and move on to another. A wiser editor might even bring up the issue to initiate removal of the improper "reliable" status. InverseZebra (talk) 00:53, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Advocating the removal of content cited to academic sources because an editor happens to disagree with said content is simply not how Wikipedia works. Newimpartial (talk) 02:53, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Sign your comments in the future. You may find it easier to use the 'reply' UI rather than editing the page directly.
 * You're essentially lying to people about the rules here. Sources are re-evaluated all the time and this *is* the process. Advocating is how things are done here. Everything on wiki happens by someone noting a problem, calling it out, and getting people on side, then making community approved changes. It starts with little things such as pointing out that a source is saying something it can't know or which is logically impossible, and eventually triggers a watershed reevaluation of what we consider "reliable".
 * I'm specifically not going in and making unilateral changes, I'm explaining why some changes are needed so that we can discuss what those would look like and work on them together. You do want the page to best reflect reality, right? InverseZebra (talk) 16:19, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I want for this article to reflect reality according to the reliable sources on its topic, which appears to differ from your reality. If you believe you have pointed out that a source is saying something it can't know or which is logically impossible - well, I'm afraid you haven't done that. What you have actually done is to focus a hostile lens on a peer-reviewed, academic source and in so doing, misinterpreted it. That kind of WP:OR is out of scope even on Talk pages.
 * Meanwhile, your accusation that I am lying to people about the rules is both unsubstantiated and unWP:CIVIL - please don't do that. If you think you have identified a problem with the source, besides noting that it employs a specific definition of feminism, I'd love to hear it - so far you have simply laid down a barrage of WP:IDONTLIKEIT against a high-quality source without identifying any potential problem with the way it is currently used in this article. Disagreeing with a source and questioning its premises does not make said source unusable, regardless of the high stock you apparently place in your own Advocating work onwiki. Newimpartial (talk) 17:19, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
 * > That kind of WP:OR is out of scope even on Talk pages.
 * Saying that talking about the value of a source is unacceptable on a talk page isn't true and you should know that. If you don't mean to lie then stop and educate yourself. You're getting way too involved in sensitive topics and should probably step back for a bit. You're acting like we're in a revert war when we're merely discussing.
 * > without identifying any potential problem with the way it is currently used in this article. [...] What you have actually done is to focus a hostile lens on a peer-reviewed, academic source and in so doing, misinterpreted it.
 * No, I clearly identified a problem with how it's used in this article. It's all context dependent and it might be a fine source for another article which doesn't hinge on these fine points. If I had merely misinterpreted a source you'd simply debate it. You're trying to stop all discussion of sources because it's obvious I'm right.
 * > Disagreeing with a source and questioning its premises does not make said source unusable
 * No, the source being imprecise or biased in this area makes it inappropriate for this article. I'm pointing out problems with sources and their use in specific articles. If you can't refute this you should consider why. InverseZebra (talk) 19:40, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Re: the source being imprecise or biased in this area makes it inappropriate for this article - that is directly at odds with what WP:BIASEDSOURCES would lead us to conclude, and has simply been an unsubstantiated assertion on your part. If you want to argue that the article's stance that trans-inclusion is essential to feminism is not only wrong but disqualifies the source from being used in thus article, you have to actually make an argument rather than merely gesticulating. Newimpartial (talk) 19:46, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
 * > If you want to argue that the article's stance that trans-inclusion is essential to feminism is not only wrong but disqualifies the source from being used in thus article
 * To show their bias in claiming to speak for all feminists we need find only one self-identified feminist who is pro single-sex spaces. That's one of the LGB-A's stances. If you'd engage with the source material you wouldn't need to ask these questions.
 * > what WP:BIASEDSOURCES would lead us to conclude
 * No it actually supports looking at any source in a context-dependent per-article fashion to determine if it can be used. That's what I'm asking for here.
 * In opposition to your assertion that discussing sources is bad, it explicitly calls out that "editors should consider whether the source meets [requirements]". InverseZebra (talk) 17:54, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The statement in mainspace for which the Monque source is currently used (as one of two sources) is, The LGB Alliance has been described ... by articles in two scholarly journals as "trans-exclusionary". The idea that the article in question is not appropriate for this attributed statement in mainspace reads like special pleading not based in any of the WP:UPPERCASE to which you have gesticulated in this conversation.
 * As far as your claim that Monque is claiming to speak for all feminists, that is nothing more or less than a misinterpretation of the piece. Meanwhile, you assert that to discredit this caricature of the article, and thereby presumably to determine if it can be used, we need find only one self-identified feminist who is pro single-sex spaces. Discrediting peer-reviewed scholarship by means of our our own original arguments is exactly what WP:NOR/WP:SYNTH tells us not to do, and your convenient misinterpretation of the Monque piece in order to discredit it offers a perfect example of why editors are not supposed to do that. We are supposed to evaluate the fitness of articles for statements they could be used to support, but not by WP:POV-based exercises in OR debunking. Newimpartial (talk) 18:57, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
 * > Discrediting peer-reviewed scholarship by means of our our own original arguments is exactly what WP:NOR/WP:SYNTH tells us not to do
 * No. They directly tell us to raise the issue of bias or anything else that brings a source, or the whole article, into disrepute. For all your protestation you're doing your own original research too, to defend this source despite their obvious biases, as reliable enough. You seem more interested in keeping sources labelled as reliable than in their use in this context.
 * The Monque source uses the TERF slur while insinuating that "terfs" - trans exclusionary radial FEMINISTS - aren't feminists. Strong logic there. They took time out of their scholarly discussion of the topic to slur people they disagree with, right before deciding they can't identify as feminists. Very reliable indeed. The absolute picture of neutrality. InverseZebra (talk) 21:24, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Still haven't seen a single real reason not to include it. Still a peer-reviewed source last I checked.
 * Also TERF is not a slur lol, its an acronym which you literally spelled out. What exactly is a term for self-described "feminists" who oppose trans people? Particularly trans inclusion in public spaces? Does it stop being a slur if you say the whole thing instead of the acronym? What's next, "cis" is a slur? "Karen" perhaps? Not to mention, TERFS don't tend to care what other people want to be called, it's kinda their whole thing, so even if it was a slur, seems a bit like karma. But really though, a group who spend all their time shouting about how trans people don't deserve rights (in dehumanizing language most of the time) saying to call them "trans-exclusionary" is a slur is so ridiculous it's funny.
 * In terms of "TERF" being a slur as much as any directed at transfolk, I'm sure that TERFS feelings get hurt as much as trans people fear for their safety when they here "tranny" walking down the street. I'll be sure to tell all the trans people I know who've been abused, called slurs, or made homeless by their family that it's just as bad to call bigots making life harder for them TERFs. Totally equivalent... Not just bigots whinging at all... Reverse transphobia one might say, in the same vein as reverse racism.
 * To be fair, there's a valid debate on whether they're really feminists. I've seen some excellent papers discussing how it becomes a no-true-scotsman to say that bigoted feminists aren't feminists (suffragettes were often racist for example) and makes it harder to critically analyze bigoted trends within feminism. But the point raised that they actively promote oppression of trans women, who are women, still counts. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:39, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
 * > Reverse transphobia one might say, in the same vein as reverse racism
 * You're comparing a woman not accepting a male in her single-sex spaces with racial segregation? Hmmm.
 * > Also TERF is not a slur lol, its an acronym which you literally spelled out.
 * It is a slur, and what makes it clear is how much energy you go to in justifying it. And yes, so is Karen when used for women whose name is not Karen, to insinuate that her viewpoint does not matter because of her sex.
 * Cis is not a slur, but it is a label that not many people who it's used for identify with. It implies that they do believe in gender and agree with their "assigned" gender. That's not how most non-transgender people view themselves so cis is usually just inaccurate. I've seen feminists who've decried gender roles their whole life being called 'cis'.
 * > I'll be sure to tell all the trans people I know who've been abused
 * Right, by JK Rowling. We can see from the ongoing hateful and violent replies to her exactly which side is harmful.
 * > "feminists" who oppose trans people?
 * But do they, really? Or do they oppose the ability of any man to self-identify into single-sex spaces such as washrooms, sports, and prisons?
 * > trans women, who are women
 * But not the traditional kind of woman. You know, who birthed you and me. You can see how they, females, being smaller and weaker and at risk of sexual attack would feel strongly about this. They might feel that feminism implies female-ism, for, by, and about females.
 * > Still haven't seen a single real reason not to include it. Still a peer-reviewed source last I checked.
 * Their bias is reason enough. It renders their criticism meaningless. If you're pushing to make the whole article meaningless then of course you wouldn't see a problem. InverseZebra (talk) 23:03, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) Am I comparing people who say transgender people should be segregated from public spaces because just because they're trans to people saying other minorities should be segregated just because they're minorities? Yes. Also, TERFS oppose a lot more than the right to use the bathroom corresponding to your gender, but of course you didn't mention that. They also frequently attack transgender healthcare and nondiscrimination protections for trans people.
 * 2) Still literally an acronym and not a slur lol. To be fair, TERFs are usually so privileged they don't have experience with actual slurs directed at them, so it's easy to see why they might get confused between a derogatory term for a demographic and a term to describe people who are bigoted towards a demographic. And of course you went to karen is a slur and sexist, completely ignoring how it's primarily used by people of color to describe racist white women and their privilege. Funny, calling karen a slur is kinda a reverse racism argument. Also, people calling cis a slur are just as ridiculous as those calling straight a slur lol. Or should we go back to the good old days when instead of "cis and trans people" we have "trannies and normal people"?
 * 3) Ah yes, if someone says TERF they just don't like Rowling. Masterful argument. Wasn't talking about her and don't care to, others have covered the topic much better (but just as a sidenote, she's endorsed the Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine, an anti-trans think tank behind a lot of anti-trans legislation). In the real world, I'll be sure to tell my trans friends who've been harassed for using the bathroom, or just existing, or been kicked out of their home by TERFy parents, that a group of mostly upper/middle class white women who spend all their time calling trans people a threat are in fact just as marginalized.
 * 4) Nah, they oppose trans people, as much as your weird hypothetical begs to differ. In the real world, men harass women all the time without needing to pretend to be trans. And if they did, they'd still be legally on the hook for harassment. There's no "trans people can harass anyone" law.
 * 5) Moving on from 8th grade biology, define woman? Chromosomes, phenotypic presentation, sex hormones, organs, etc? Because their isn't really a definition of woman excluding trans woman that doesn't exclude cis and intersex women too. Trans woman are still women lol, cope. Also, nothing bigoted about arguments that women are frail and need protecting from any possible encounters with the big scary . Not to mention, does that make it ok for trans women to risk sexual assault? If cis women are in danger from cis men, why aren't trans women? At best we pass and are at just as much risk, and if we don't we're at more. Also, how do you know my birthgiver wasn't a trans man? Quick assumption to make.
 * 6) Your feelings that they're biased because they're mean to the poor TERFs isn't actually a reason to remove the article grounded in wikipedia policy.
 * In short, whole lot of dogwhistles and sealioning, little in the way of an actual argument. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 23:41, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
 * > [... feminists] oppose a lot more than the right to use the bathroom corresponding to your gender
 * Some sure. But women don't have to do more than lobby to keep single-sex bathrooms for you to slur them as TERFs.
 * > I comparing people who say transgender people should be segregated from public spaces because just because they're trans
 * Who is arguing that the grocery store should be segregated based on gender identity? Women just want single-sex spaces to remain single-sex.
 * > And of course you went to karen is a slur and sexist, completely ignoring how it's primarily used by people of color to describe racist white women and their privilege. Funny, calling karen a slur is kinda a reverse racism argument.
 * Right, it's a slur. But you think it's okay because white women deserve it.
 * > Wasn't talking about [JKR] and don't care to
 * It's okay, I wasn't interested in what you'd have to say. I was using her as an example of perceived harm versus real death threats. TERF is a word Antifa uses in its signs and online threats towards women. It's clear that it's a slur, and being used to stigmatize and call for violence like all slurs. You do so much work denying that it's a slur while using it as often as you can, and always to imply that people hold *even more* bad opinions rather than engaging with what you see as their argumentative errors.
 * > they oppose trans people, as much as your weird hypothetical begs to differ.
 * Or is it that you see any callout of the difference between sex and gender, and the differential impact on one sex, as opposing trans people in general?
 * > In the real world, men harass women all the time without needing to pretend to be trans.
 * Which is why single-sex spaces were created. So that women could go somewhere without males. And if a man got in it wasn't a complicated question of his identity to get him removed and arrested. Fwiw, many women make a distinction between trans women and men using their existence as cover.
 * > And if they did, they'd still be legally on the hook for harassment. There's no "trans people can harass anyone" law.
 * A male claiming to be trans won't be stopped when following girls into the bathroom, or have the police called on him for loitering in the shower, so of course any male aggressor - and there are enough to warrant the creation of single-sex spaces - is going to use this defense.
 * > nothing bigoted about arguments that women are frail and need protecting
 * No. Women are smaller and weaker and thus more vulnerable. Recognizing reality isn't bigoted, and indeed women were the first ones to call for women's spaces in recognition of this.
 * > the big scary 
 * Random street violence is 95%+ male perpetrated. Forcible sexual assaults are 99%+ perpetrated by people with penises, males. The risk of impregnation does make males quite scary. I don't know why you're so dismissive of women's time-proven fears.
 * > 8th grade biology [...] If cis women are in danger from cis men, why aren't trans women
 * Because males are on average bigger and stronger than females but trans women are males so there's no size or strength advantage. Gender is different than sex.
 * > Your feelings that they're biased because they're mean to the poor TERFs isn't actually a reason to remove the article grounded in wikipedia policy
 * No, because they make illogical claims such as calling these women "trans-exclusionary radical feminists" but also saying they aren't feminists. It makes sense that they probably can't tell supporting single-sex spaces from being anti trans. It shows that they aren't reliable, at least not here or in similar articles.
 * I'm only talking about terf and their usage of it as a red flag for a publication trying to slander and slur their opponents rather than present facts or engage with claims. It's not impossible but you'd be hard pressed to find a non-biased publication using slurs for the people they're discussing. InverseZebra (talk) 01:06, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * InverseZebra, I don't know how you expect your arguments to be taken seriously when you make new, completely unsubstantiated assertions at every turn:
 * Women just want single-sex spaces to remain single-sex - really? Women in general want to exclude trans women from spaces that are defined as belonging to women only? What is your evidence for this?
 * TERF is a word Antifa uses in its signs and online threats towards women - Antifa? Seriously? You are going to inscribe your conspiracy theory about persecuted "TERFs" within a broader conspiracy theory about Antifa, without offering evidence for either? That is really how you want to play this?
 * A male claiming to be trans won't be stopped when following girls into the bathroom, or have the police called on him for loitering in the shower, so of course any male aggressor - and there are enough to warrant the creation of single-sex spaces - is going to use this defense. You think that you can convince editors of the righteousness of your cause by recycling unsubstantiated transphobic tropes? This is where dog-whistle politics enters the realm of clearly-audible-whistle politics, IMO.
 * And then the reiterated assertion that "TERF" is a slur, without any recognition that the higher-quality RS do not actually support this characterization.
 * Re: trying to slander and slur their opponents rather than present facts or engage with claims - and this is exactly what you are doing in this discussion with your demonizing trans people as rapists. Are you sure you haven't previously been banned from discussing gender and sexuality on English Wikipedia? Because this discussion is starting to feel tediously familiar. Newimpartial (talk) 02:05, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * > this discussion is starting to feel tediously familiar.
 * When you don't read what people say I can see how that would happen.
 * > you sure you haven't previously been banned from discussing gender and sexuality
 * I'm sure you're juicy for another show trial regardless. I'm discussing the quality of sources. You're the ones muddying the issue by assuming my motives rather than engaging my points. You're demanding proof that terf is a slur and yet you object to that very proof as being transphobic.
 * I don't believe that there's any argument you wouldn't call transphobic.
 * > You think that you can convince editors of the righteousness of your cause by recycling unsubstantiated transphobic tropes
 * I was talking about males using trans policies as cover. As much as you want it to be, that's not transphobic. And it's one area of LGBA and other women's concerns about the conflict of women's rights and trans rights. It's clearly not a hate position and yet you try to make it into one.
 * > demonizing trans people as rapists
 * No, demonizing males as rapists.
 * > Antifa? Seriously? You are going to inscribe your conspiracy theory about persecuted "TERFs" within a broader conspiracy theory about Antifa, without offering evidence for either?
 * Yeah, the masked mob which assaulted the women protesting at the Wi Spa and later at the Port Townsend YMCA were largely antifa, and had put out calls online for other antifa to come help them beat up terfs. I'd post proof but you'd complain about the source, so search for it yourself.
 * > Women in general want to exclude trans women from spaces that are defined as belonging to women only? What is your evidence for this?
 * Well, that they call the spaces single-sex spaces.
 * > the reiterated assertion that "TERF" is a slur, without any recognition that the higher-quality RS do not actually support this characterization
 * That's the issue I raised, that you keep diverting from. That the high quality sources aren't high quality or reliable. I've already used the quotes given to show that Monque is fatally inconsistent within a single sentence. Of course they won't call out their own slurs, a quality publication wouldn't use them in the first place.
 * If they can't be trusted to state the issues correctly then how do you expect readers to believe that they can accurately represent LGBA's opinion enough to judge and criticize it? InverseZebra (talk) 03:04, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * So you are refusing to provide any RS support whatsoever that anything you have asserted in this discussion is based in any kind of reality? (Backs slowly away.) Newimpartial (talk) 03:08, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * > any RS support whatsoever
 * Being that this is a talk page and we're talking about the sources themselves I'm not going to be limited to providing sources that you've vetted.
 * But otherwise, what would you like proof for? How do you need proof that a sentence is self-contradictory when you can read it yourself? InverseZebra (talk) 03:23, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * You haven't even concinced me that you believe some specific sentence of the source to be self-contradictory, much less that there is some policy-based reason to think it unreliable for the claim sourced to it in the article. You have, however, convinced me that YOUDONTLIKEIT and that you demand a good deal of SATISFACTION from your interlocutors, although you have some difficulty remaining CIVIL as you pursue your POV. Newimpartial (talk) 03:39, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * > although you have some difficulty remaining CIVIL
 * You sure do love to post all the WP:LINKS but most of them contradict you, such as the ones about reliable sources and bias that say editors should use their own judgement to call out bad sources.
 * > You haven't even concinced me that you believe
 * Thankfully, as much as you portray yourself as a gatekeeper, convincing you has never been my primary goal. There are many editors and readers and you are only one.
 * > You have, however, convinced me that YOUDONTLIKEIT
 * Do you like bad sources? You make it seem like that's weird.
 * > you demand a good deal of SATISFACTION from your interlocutors
 * If you fail to engage reasonably or in good faith I point it out. InverseZebra (talk) 04:11, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I think several people here are violating WP:NOTFORUM by using this talk page to engage in culture-warring with only tenuous relation to the actual article. &#42;Dan T.* (talk) 04:22, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I've made a claim about the quality of sources and have been asked to explain myself. Until it became so clearly ill-faith it seemed reasonable to engage. InverseZebra (talk) 04:47, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Coming somewhat late to this. To Newimpartial: You refer to the Simon thesis as a peer-reviewed academic source and say the object of your ire ought to be WP's policy framework for reliable sourcing, and not the content of this article. But Sweet6970 (talk) 16:14, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I haven't referred to the Simon thesis even once in this discussion. Newimpartial (talk) 16:18, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I know it is a convoluted conversation, but Sweet6970 is wrong. It is Monique 2021 that is the source being discussed, and which was first cited here by TheTranarchist. -- Colin°Talk 17:31, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * No, I also called out Simon as Sweet6970 said. Monque was just more egregious so conversation settled there. InverseZebra (talk) 18:21, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Re: the TERF slur - and yet there is no agreement among scholarly sources that TERF is a slur. You are assuming the thing you purport to prove, once again. Newimpartial (talk) 23:03, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The Wikipedia article on TERF says it is "typically considered derogatory" (even though it was originally coined as a neutral description), citing Oxford English Dictionary. The article then gives citations on both sides of a debate over whether it is a slur, representing this as an open debate in which there is no consensus. &#42;Dan T.* (talk) 17:16, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't know what the correct wording is for the first paragraph but I also think the present wording is not an accurate description of who they are, just who they say they are. To repeat what I said in an earlier discussion I don't think that taking the LGB Alliance's website at face value is sensible. Like other groups that are considered by some to be a hate group what they say on their website and what they do are quite different. One example from their website; "We fully support trans people in their struggle, for dignity, respect and a life lived free from bigotry and fear.", this is not present in their opposition to making conversion therapy for trans people illegal in the UK.

What are the rules around this and where has this kind of issue come up before and been resolved well?

John Cummings (talk) 10:42, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * If someone has a source saying that LGB Alliance was founded to exclude transgender people from LGBT Movements and to oppose the transgender rights movement then they should (a) direct us to the source, and the quote saying this, and (b) explain what this could possibly mean. How could any organisation ‘exclude transgender people from LGBT movements’? The wording proposed by Bluerasberry, and inserted by them without gaining consensus for it, is nonsensical and is not supported by the body of the article. Sweet6970 (talk) 11:10, 4 October 2022 (UTC)


 * I put a notice of this discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies and also messaged Wiki LGBT+ groups in other channels.  Bluerasberry   (talk)  13:59, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, you put a notice with a very biased statement, "This is a transphobic hate group." Not "This has been alleged to be a transphobic hate group", or even "I believe this to be a transphobic hate group", but simply stating it as if it's an indisputable fact. &#42;Dan T.* (talk) 14:21, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * unambiguously a transphobic hate group The weight of the sources establish that the mainsteam LGBT+ community including almost everyone considers this organization to be a transphobic hate group. There is nothing controversial about saying that.  Bluerasberry   (talk)  14:26, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Feel free to name a single thing they've campaigned for that isn't transphobic. Considering literally all of their activism is centered around attacking the rights of trans people, and the majority of their press coverage covers that, they're matter of factly a transphobic hate group.
 * Not to mention, while they're mostly a transphobic hate group, they're homophobic as well. See their positions on LGBT clubs in schools, gay marriage, or even their repeated assumption that transgender people can't be LGB, an old homophobic and transphobic position. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 14:34, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

has suggested (11:42, 4 October 2022) as an alternative wording: in opposition to the extension of the charity Stonewall's focus from LGB rights to LGBT ones. Something along these lines makes better sense than the wording which has been promoted by. Is there any general support for JaggedHamster’s proposal, or anything similar? Sweet6970 (talk) 15:26, 4 October 2022 (UTC)


 * The use of "extension … from LGB rights to LGBT ones" implies that Stonewall was previously LGB-only and is now adding trans-rights issues to their focus. That is simply not true — while Stonewall used to be criticised for paying insufficient attention to trans people's concerns, they have always claimed to represent the LGBTQ+ community more generally. OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please &#123;&#123;ping&#125;&#125; me in replies) 15:35, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The terminology Stonewall use at https://www.stonewall.org.uk/our-work/campaigns/2015-stonewall-extends-remit-become-lgbt-charity-and-begins-journey-trans is that they extended their remit in 2015 to become a LGBT charity, would that be a better choice of words? Or https://www.stonewall.org.uk/vision-change has it as extending their "remit to campaign for trans equality alongside lesbian, gay and bisexual (LGB) equality"? JaggedHamster (talk) 16:08, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Given that the change was in 2015 and this group didn't form until 2019, I wonder if the wording should be a bit less suggestive of a change in Stonewall's mandate being the proximate cause of the rift. Maybe something like ...formed in 2019 in opposition to the LGBT charity Stonewall's advocacy for trans rights.--Trystan (talk) 23:25, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, this looks good to me. Crossroads -talk- 01:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
 * No, I oppose. The word "founding" should not be in the first sentence, nor should mention of Stonewall. The origin story is much less important than what the organization actually does. Find a wording that presents the consensus view of this organization's activities.  Bluerasberry   (talk)  11:59, 5 October 2022 (UTC)


 * No, I don't support the suggested phrasing "The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group known for its opposition to the transgender rights movement and the belief that there is a "conflict between trans rights and the rights of [ cisgender ] LGB people". It has the same issue as the existing introduction, it talks about why the say they were set up (taking their claims at face value), not what they actually do. What is an established process to review the existing reliable sources to come up with a definition? John Cummings (talk) 13:41, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Further proposals
Previous ideas are insufficient for failure to state what the organization does. Here is one option -
 * The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group which opposes the transgender rights movement.

Who has other ideas? If you oppose stating what the organization does, then explain why.  Bluerasberry  (talk)  11:23, 6 October 2022 (UTC)


 * My proposal for the lead paragraph is the following. It covers both the specific origin, which I think is important context, and has a clear emphasis on the details of their mandate. I don't find the current article's list of founders (only one of whom has an article) meaningful info this early on in the article, so I have left it out.
 * The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group formed in 2019 in opposition to LGBT charity Stonewall's support for transgender rights. The LGB Alliance advocates against gender identity education in schools, a ban on conversion therapy for trans people in the UK, medical transition for children reporting gender dysphoria, and gender recognition reform.--Trystan (talk) 14:04, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Would you be willing to reverse the order of your first and second sentences? I oppose emphasis on the brief time of the organization's founding and defining it in terms of another organization which Wikipedia's international readership is unlikely to recognize.  Bluerasberry   (talk)  14:12, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Personally, I would find it much harder to mentally digest in the reverse order. Explaining they broke away from an LGBT group over trans rights gives context for the list of stances.--Trystan (talk) 13:46, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I honestly think that their origin story is not really lead-worthy, certainly not in the very first sentence. It doesn't receive a lot of weight in the article itself, which is instead focused heavily on their activism, which is by far the main thing they're notable for. So therefore I propose:
 * The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group formed in 2019 to oppose transgender rights. They advocate against gender identity education in schools, a ban on conversion therapy for trans people in the UK, medical transition for children reporting gender dysphoria, and gender recognition reform. Loki (talk) 14:08, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * This version seems the best suggested so far. However, I think we should somehow include the fact they frame their opposition in terms of a (nonexistent) conflict between the rights of cisgender LGB people and trans people, followed by criticism of that position from relevant sources. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 14:40, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia needs to be careful to state the views of LGBA and its critics without taking a position on whose views are true or false, existent or nonexistent. &#42;Dan T.* (talk) 17:06, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Your preference here does not reflect Wikipedia policy - articles are to reflect the facts and conventional interpretations stated in independent, reliable sources - FALSEBALANCE is not ok where it departs from consensus reality. Newimpartial (talk) 17:23, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * There are other proposals which have been made - these are immediately above this section. It is confusing to have 2 discussions going on at once. Sweet6970 (talk) 14:48, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
 * You have my support and encouragement to WP:REFACTOR this section I started. Delete move rearrange in whatever way makes sense. In the end I suppose a list of options and a selection process would be ideal.  Bluerasberry   (talk)  15:20, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

, please can suggesters link to the sources that support their suggested sentences, this will make it easier to see that they're supported by sources. Thanks, John Cummings (talk) 17:32, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The lead should really just be summarizing the sourced material already in the article. Sources in the lead are the exception rather than the rule.--Trystan (talk) 13:46, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree, but the sourced material already in the article already gives a very strong impression that the LGB Alliance are in fact transphobic generally, and don't just oppose Stonewall specifically. Loki (talk) 14:03, 7 October 2022 (UTC)


 * The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group formed in 2019 that takes the position that a conflict exists between those who are lesbian, gay, or bisexual, and those who are transgender, and advocates for the LGB side of such conflicts. They were formed in opposition to LGBT charity Stonewall's transgender focus. (Sources: ) &#42;Dan T.* (talk) 14:37, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * This version doesn't reflect what the majority of sources say. Two sources from the Times, a paper that's notoriously anti-trans in its coverage, doesn't override the rest of the sources. Not to mention, they don't advocate for the LGB side of such conflicts, they say they do that, there's a big difference (since reality shows LGBT people have been fighting side by side for decades and transgender rights aren't at all in conflict with LGB rights whatsoever. Cisgender LGB rights I add, since people seem to keep conveniently forgetting trans people can also be LGB). They weren't founded in oppositon to Stonewall's transgender focus, but the fact they advocate for trans people at all. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 14:45, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * That's your opinion. Your opinion or mine don't matter here, but LGBA does have the (reliably sourced) opinion that such a conflict does exist, so that (stated as what LGBA believes, not as an objective fact) should go in the intro. &#42;Dan T.* (talk) 17:05, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Secondary sources trump primary sources, dawg. Random FRINGE beliefs do not belong in the lede where they are not consistently reported in secondary sources, per WP:BALANCE. Newimpartial (talk) 17:26, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * When it's an article about a specific organization, the beliefs of that organization are relevant, whether "fringe" or not. Apparently the Flat Earth Society isn't notable enough to have its own article (there is one for a band of that name, however), but if it did I'd expect its lede to state its beliefs, however wacky they might be. I see the ledes for Mermaids (charity) and Stonewall (charity) state the purposes and activities of those organizations succinctly, without reference to what critics say, and largely sourced from those groups' own websites. &#42;Dan T.* (talk) 18:38, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Here's a secondary source quoting a founder of LGBA as saying it was founded to "prevent the dissemination of the lie of gender identity". Is that better? &#42;Dan T.* (talk) 18:44, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, "to promote its view that gender identity is a lie" or "to promote its view that gender identity is a pernicious ideology", if you'd allow the paraphrase. Newimpartial (talk) 19:03, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree with Dan T. Also I don't see any evidence that scepticism about gender identity is a "fringe" view. Reading the coverage in a variety of media, it seems to me pretty mainstream. For instance in The Guardian there have been articles both for and against that view. And some quite respectable public figures, not only right-wing reactionaries, have shared that sceptical opinion. When several notable women (Joanna Cherry MP, JK Rowling) and gay men (Matthew Parris) say they don't agree with the Stonewall line on this matter, Wikipedia should give fair representation to that position. Alarics (talk) 20:20, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * While I understand that some WP editors believe that gender identity is a lie, this view is unsupported by the wide consensus of reliable sources in the relevant fields and is therefore WP:FRINGE. If quite respectable public figures dispute the scholarly consensus on climate change or on the Nazi Holocaust, we do not therefore present BOTHSIDES on the matter, nor do we present groups of climate change or holocaust deniers as taking any thing other than a FRINGE position. The same is true here. We never base WP articles on the range of opinion that is or isn't expressed in WP:RSOPINION sources and I see no reason why this topic would be different: no matter how many WP editors happen to take a view at odds with scientific consensus. Newimpartial (talk)
 * If we have to change it then let's just go with Bluerasberry's suggestion at the beginning. Succinct, and seems quite accurate and well-sourced, as well as unlikely to be as controversial as alternatives. Crossroads -talk- 20:26, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I disagree – the wording proposed by Bluerasberry (The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group which opposes the transgender rights movement) is very similar to the argument that it should not be a charity, because it is supposedly campaigning against transgender rights, rather than for the interests of LGB people. So this wording would make Wikipedia agree with Mermaids’ side of the current legal dispute.
 * The current wording is better than any of the new wordings which have been proposed. Sweet6970 (talk) 11:41, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * If most reliable sources support the claim that they oppose the trans rights movement, we write as much. If that makes the LGB Alliance look bad, that's their problem, not ours. Madeline (part of me ) 11:51, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * to Madeline: being in opposition to Stonewall’s policies on transgender issues is not the same as being opposed to transgender rights. Sweet6970 (talk) 12:39, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Indeed, which is why I predicated my claim with . I was simply rebuking the point expressed in the post I replied to, that using the wording would break NPOV regardless of sourcing. Madeline (part of me ) 12:50, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * to Madeline: The inf in the article is not that RSs support the claim that LGBA is anti-trans, but that various people have said that it is anti-trans. Sweet6970 (talk) 17:49, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Sweet6790, you offer a strangely backwards argument. If the RS on this matter present a reality that is aligned with the situation that has prompted the Charity Commission hearings, we are not supposed to present that reality in Wikivoice? That doesn't sound like WP policy... Newimpartial (talk) 11:52, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * to Newimpartial: You refer to ‘the situation that has prompted the Charity Commission hearings’. But it wasn’t a ‘situation’ which ‘prompted’ the Charity Commission case. It was Mermaids which instigated the case against LGB Alliance. The proposed wording which I quoted just gives Mermaids’ view. It is perfectly possible that LGB Alliance will win the case – we don’t know the outcome at present, and in fact the hearing has been adjourned, so it will be some time before we know the decision. Sweet6970 (talk) 12:41, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Right, but the language in question doesn't say anything about what the Charity Commission will decide - it talks about what the organization actually does. The sources supporting this statement are not primarily making attributed statements, "Mermaids says that the Alliance does X", but rather factual statements in their own voice, "the Alliance does/is X". The sourcing on "the other side" that would require an attributed statement in our article doesn't seem to exist, or if it does, it certainly hasn't been presented here. Your argument that we can't present what the RS say about the Alliance - not about the outcome of the Charity Commission case, but about the documented activity of the Alliance - unless there is a ruling against the Alliance in the case - well, I am unaware of any support for that (seemingly odd) position in terms of WP policy. Are some thought police censors being employed here that I don't know about? Newimpartial (talk) 12:59, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Please direct me to the RSs which say in their own voice ‘the Alliance does X’, and exactly what they say the Alliance does.
 * I don’t understand your reference to ‘censors’, but I don’t suggest you explain, because I think this would bring us into WP:NOTFORUM territory. Sweet6970 (talk) 17:50, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The best, most up to date source I could find says:
 * I think that's a pretty clear statement that 'the Alliance does X', where 'X' is campaigned to erode trans rights and paint the trans community as dangerous to women and children. Newimpartial (talk) 19:10, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Is PinkNews really the best source on this? We don't have a scholarly source, general media, none of that? Crossroads -talk- 22:01, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I am not aware of any consensus that general media sources are preferable to PinkNews in this context. Of course scholarly sources are preferable. Newimpartial (talk) 22:21, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I am not aware of any consensus that general media sources are preferable to PinkNews in this context. Of course scholarly sources are preferable. Newimpartial (talk) 22:21, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

PinkNews is an obviously biased source, and the article quoted is more of an opinion piece than a factual news report. Sweet6970 (talk) 09:55, 11 October 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't see any evidence for either element of that assertion. Newimpartial (talk) 10:30, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Let's turn it around. Is it your position that PinkNews is not a biased source, and that the above quoted article does not express opinion? Crossroads -talk- 02:07, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * In that article in particular, I don't see any statement that would qualify as the writer's (or the publication's) opinion, as opposed to factual reporting. Newimpartial (talk) 02:13, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Could you please answer the first part of my question as well. Whether we agree PinkNews is biased or not would help in future discussions... Crossroads -talk- 02:21, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I am not aware of any sources on this article's topic that are free from at least the potential for bias; PinkNews strikes me as less biased than most of the sources currently used in the article. WP:BIASEDSOURCES reminds us: When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control, a reputation for fact-checking, and the level of independence from the topic the source is covering. In terms of those criteria in particular, I think PinkNews stands up well as an Independent, Reliable source on this article's topic. Newimpartial (talk) 02:30, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * PinkNews is listed as a reliable source for factual reporting in the list of Wikipedia perennial sources: Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources. No sources are entirely free from biases. That is why it may be good to attribute statements and provide readers with all relevant views from the reliable sources available. Hist9600 (talk) 18:53, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Founded in Britain, now international?
The article now lists chapters in Ireland, Iceland, Australia, and I have a source for a new one in Vermont. Wouldn't it be more apt to open with saying the group is International, founded in the UK (or specific UK country), with several chapters worldwide? - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 20:46, 9 October 2022 (UTC)


 * While some of the international offshoots are real, others seem to be little more than Twitter accounts. (There are also a lot of other Twitter accounts that may be genuine attempts to start a group or just be astroturfing or parodies.) The LGBA doesn't claim direct affiliation with any of them, even the ones listed on their website. That is why the "International groups" section is carefully worded as it is. I'd be inclined to leave it as it is. If any of the other offshoot groups have any actual activities, covered by reliable sources, then they can be added to the section. The main thing is that we let our readers know that there are some other groups and I think we already have that adequately covered. DanielRigal (talk) 21:38, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

List of proposals
I think this is everything proposed above. Did I miss any, or does anyone have further proposals?
 * 1) The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group founded in 2019...
 * 2) in opposition to the policies of LGBT rights charity Stonewall on transgender issues.
 * 3) to exclude transgender people from LGBT Movements and to oppose the transgender rights movement.
 * 4) in opposition to the extension of the charity Stonewall's focus from LGB rights to LGBT ones
 * 5) to promote its view that gender identity is a "lie
 * 6) to promote its view that gender identity is a pernicious ideology
 * 7) The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group known for its opposition to the transgender rights movement and the belief that there is a conflict between trans rights and the rights of cisgender LGB people.
 * 8) The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group which opposes the transgender rights movement.
 * 9) The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group formed in 2019 in opposition to LGBT charity Stonewall's support for transgender rights. The LGB Alliance advocates against gender identity education in schools, a ban on conversion therapy for trans people in the UK, medical transition for children reporting gender dysphoria, and gender recognition reform.
 * 10) The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group formed in 2019 to oppose transgender rights. They advocate against gender identity education in schools, a ban on conversion therapy for trans people in the UK, medical transition for children reporting gender dysphoria, and gender recognition reform.

Does anyone see a way to get consensus here, or should we do an RfC? Ideas for what's next?  Bluerasberry  (talk)  14:06, 16 October 2022 (UTC)


 * I support a mixture of 4 and 5, with the first sentence reading The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group formed in 2019 to oppose transgender rights and LGBT charity Stonewall for it's support of them Thank you for laying them out, I think that helps us look for a consensus here more informally. If we can't moving it to an RFC seems the best move. Also, I prefer transgender rights to transgender rights movement since they aren't critical of a movement but the rights themselves, with attacking organizations that support trans people being a part of that. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:04, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I support 1(1) i.e. The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group founded in 2019 in opposition to the policies of LGBT rights charity Stonewall on transgender issues. This is the current wording. Sweet6970 (talk) 11:29, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks very much Bluerasberry for supporting this discussion.

I don't think that 1 is sufficient, again it just talks about their history and who they say they are, not what they actually do, I don't think that any of these options are incorrect, just what we chose to emphasise. I agree with the above comment about clarifying they are against the rights themselves, not the movement. My suggestion would be to leave the founding information until after a description of what they actually do:


 * The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group which opposes transgender rights. They advocate against gender identity education in schools, a ban on conversion therapy for trans people in the UK, gender affirming care including puberty blockers for children reporting gender dysphoria, and gender recognition reform. It was founded in 2019 in opposition to LGBT charity Stonewall's support for transgender rights.

If this is taken to an RFC my suggestion would be first to agree on what whould be included and then which order we put the information.

Thanks

John Cummings (talk) 12:47, 17 October 2022 (UTC)


 * I like 1.2, 2, 3, 5, and 's mix of 4 and 5. These are all pretty direct about their actual agenda and don't get bogged down in their history. If I had to support one over the others, I'd say I like 2 best, because I think saying they're "known for" opposing transgender rights is a little easier to get from the current sources than saying they were founded specifically to oppose transgender rights. Loki (talk) 22:03, 21 October 2022 (UTC)


 * I like 3 or 5. And I honestly think Stonewall should not be mentioned in the first sentence. The founding circumstances of an organization may seem extremely important to its supporters but as time goes on it becomes less and less relevant, and is not the main thing that defines it anymore. After all, any political party or movement started off as a very small local reaction to some other existing thing, but we don't make it defining. --Dan Carkner (talk) 15:27, 22 October 2022 (UTC)


 * 4 or 5 are good or John Cummings version. The more descriptive options are better in general. Silver  seren C 16:46, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * So far it's very much seeming like 5 is the option with the most support. We currently have 3 or 4 people (depending on how you count TheTranarchist's proposal) supporting something including 5, with only two people supporting something else. Loki (talk) 04:27, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Is there any source which actually supports {{tq| ..formed…to oppose transgender rights…’? Sweet6970 (talk) 11:44, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
 * 2 seems best of these possibilities, more neutral and is more informative. It needs support from sources though. Crossroads {{sup|-talk-}} 21:14, 23 October 2022 (UTC)