Talk:LMS Coronation Class

Photos and copyright
LOL....You crafty git!!!!! :-) ChrisRed 10:06, 29 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I beat you to uploading those photos you mean? Yeah, you get the credit for finding them. Dunc|&#9786; 11:37, 29 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I do like a bit of the old black-and-white; dont you?. Very moody.  BTW, nothing heard from 'Ron Healey', re the Duke pic.  How do we stand if Mr Healey is no longer with us?. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChrisRed (talk • contribs) 13:38, 29 September 2005‎


 * If he's passed away, copyright of works published during his lifetime is inherited by his next of kin or to whomever he gives it to in his will. His work then becomes public domain on the next first of January 70 years after his death.  So if he died yesterday, it'd be 1st January 2076 before that happenned.  This is because of the corporate thieves oppressing the right of the people to their work, etc, etc, etc...


 * However, there is a market for photographs like this, and you might be in luck £2.50 for an anonymous 1955 photo of the Duke, (assuming that copyright is also bought, though i'm not 100% you wouldn't be in trouble if the original author did by some miracle turn up, but I think it'd be fairly safe if you explained that you assume in good faith that you do buy the copyright when you buy the image.  It might be an idea to ask at Wikipedia talk:Copyrights, though everyone will probably be clueless. Dunc|&#9786; 14:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Fairy Nuff. I absolutely hate nitpickers, but isn't that the South end of Crewe station?.  Memory fades, but I'm sure that wall in the background runs along the east side of the station.  Also there's a tiny typo in your text (bath/batch) I didn't want to appear a smartass by correcting it. I'll sit tight for a few days for Mr Healey.  Somebody got the e-mail, because it would have bounced back otherwise.(ChrisRed) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.213.215.153 (talk) 14:36, 29 September 2005‎

Yes I tried to email John Griffiths at two email addresses that are on his websites but got bounced back. Just what did you say though? We have boilerplate request for permission letters which might help. Dunc|&#9786; 20:04, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I got bounced by John Griffiths' address too, but I managed to dig out another address for Ron Healey. Perhaps it is 'a' Ron Healey rather than 'the' Ron Healey, time will tell, although he was definitely a rail buff living in NZ. (ChrisRed) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.213.215.153 (talk) 06:58, 30 September 2005‎


 * I got through to John Griffiths through his mates. I think Ron Healey is ignoring me.  Never mind, I have others in the pipeline. Dunc|&#9786; 23:14, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

You may be interested to know - I have just (27/1/06) contacted Yahoo - Ron's e-mail provider- to see if I can get his contact details. I am the one who posted the query message on a.b.p.rail about him - a short time ago. I still have not had any response from him either — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.26.16.67 (talk) 00:45, 27 January 2006‎

Blue livery
Is there any point in mentioning BR experimental blue livery twice in the liveries section? Or is it me being a bit pedantic? (Bulleid Pacific 21:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC))
 * The BR experimental blue livery is not mentioned twice. The experimental blue is mentioned once, the standard blue is mentioned once. The experimental blue is ignored by Mannion and Sixsmith in their books but Jenkinson states it was carried by 7 locomotives. These 7 were painted in 1948 and were in a paler blue to the BR standard blue and had initially black and yellow lining, later changed to black and white. These 7 are considered by Jenkinson as the prototypes for the BR standard blue. The standard blue was adopted in 1949, a year later, which backs up Jenkinson thoughts on the 1948 scheme. The standard blue was not experimental, it was meant to be a standard livery for the bigger passenger locomotives, but due to it's poor performance in traffic in was decided to abandon it in 1951. Gawthorpe Dave 19:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to resurrect this discussion, as the "Table of BR liveries" shows the experimental blue as a lighter shade of standard with white/black/white lining. I accept that such a livery did exist experimentally (as discussed in Jenkinson), but I do not believe the 7 locos painted in 1948 all received this livery at that time. Original colour photographic evidence of 46224 Alexandra exists showing her in a darker blue with red lining (very akin to the GER), and variations of this livery were applied to 8Ps across the regions (sometimes unhelpfully referred to as 'Experimental Purple'). I am almost certain I can find a reference to back this up in Nock, and of course photographs exist in Huntriss' "Colour of Steam" volume on the LMS Pacifics (or possibly the LMS in colour). However, this causes difficulty with the table. We can either replace the colours in the header with something like HEX #4729CB with red lining, but this would obfuscate the lighter blue version of standard livery applied to (amongst possible others) 46244 "KGV" (citation to follow when I find it again!). Alternatively, we add a new column for the GER style livery, but then face the challenge of having to work out which locos had which and when. Personally, I am minded to treat all 7 locos named by Jenkinson as having the darker GER style livery in 1948, since this coincides with the same livery being applied to other regions (with 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' tender legend). But this is a tricky area. I feel this is of value to those modelling the class, as it represents one of the broadest range of liveries for a single class. Mja58 (talk) 18:25, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Most powerful pasenger loco?
"They were the most powerful passenger steam locomotives ever to be built for the British railway network"

I would dispute this. The LNER Class P2 article makes the same claim, and is listed as having a higher tractive effort (43'462 lbf vs 40'000 lbf). 86.20.206.100 (talk) 20:09, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Tractive effort is not a measure of power. It is a theoretical calculation of the maximum force which the locomotive could exert on starting, based upon just five values: rated boiler pressure; cylinder bore; piston stroke; number of cylinders; and driving wheel diameter. Although it typically allows for 15% losses, it does not scientifically take into account a large number of other factors which affect the power which may be exerted, such as the capacity to boil water, superheating, internal resistance of steam passages, leaks therefrom, number of driven wheels in contact with the rail, mechanical stiffness, rail friction, coal quality, skills of driver and fireman. TE has often been used to compare locomotives, but this is erroneous: the only fair test is a direct trial, either on a testing plant, or out the line. -- Red rose64 (talk) 20:33, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

There is another factor which supports the claim that the Coronations were the most powerful locomotives ever operated on the British railway network:- they regularly hauled 21 carriage trains out of Euston for Glasgow, something that the LNER locomotives were never able to emulate. They also pulled long - 21 carriage trains over Shap and Beattock without a banking locomotive. Lankyman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.244.57.35 (talk) 17:09, 22 July 2014‎

Further to the above paragraph, the February 1939 test runs over the West Coast route of 6234 Duchess of Abercorn after its fitting with a double blastpipe & chimney are worth noting - peak indicated drawbar horsepower (idhp) reached approx. 3300, a magnitude more usually associated with Deltics and the first generation of 25kV Bo-Bo electrics built for the West Coast Main Line. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:630:301:1140:7059:E024:E5B8:A7FA (talk) 12:25, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Livery codes
I removed this from the livery section- I presume the codes are some kind of official LMS notation?

LMS Streamliner – Blue, Red, Shop Grey, Wartime Black (Code C22)

LMS Non-streamliner – Red (Code A11), Wartime Black (Code C22), Experimental Grey, 1946 Black (Code B12; a few early repaints Code B13) --Ning-ning (talk) 22:13, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily. Some books use codes within the text as a form of link to a longer description at the back; these are usually unofficial. -- Red rose64 (talk) 22:49, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought at first they were Carter's numbers, from British Railway Liveries, but they're not. --Ning-ning (talk) 23:16, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * No, Carter uses simple integers 1-50, and those refer to particular colours, not to livery styles. Thus, Carter's codes relevant to the Coronations are 24 Royal blue and 28 crimson-lake.
 * If codes like A11, B12 and C22 were official, they would surely be mentioned in a book like
 * but I don't see anything resembling livery codes (A11 etc. or otherwise) in the extensive description of liveries on pp. 136-159. -- Red rose64 (talk) 10:35, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Got some doubts about the "Royal blue", as Haresnape states Prussian blue, a different colour, but he also says it was intended to be a match for Caledonian blue, without saying which Caley blue! Ning-ning (talk) 20:32, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Got some doubts about the "Royal blue", as Haresnape states Prussian blue, a different colour, but he also says it was intended to be a match for Caledonian blue, without saying which Caley blue! Ning-ning (talk) 20:32, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Page numbers in Jenkinson 1982
I've just found a copy of Jenkinson (1982), ISBN 0-86093-176-5, and although there are plate numbers, there are no page numbers. Where have these come from in all the references to this book? (User:Redrose64 editing whilst logged out - public library) --194.81.226.131 (talk) 18:42, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I confirm that the above post was by me, logged out. It's mainly for the attention of . -- Red rose64 (talk) 23:52, 11 November 2016 (UTC)