Talk:Laúd

Archilaúd
There is a third instrument in the bandurria, laúd, family, the archilaúd. It is just like a larger laúd, with longer neck, larger body, tuned an octave lower. I have made edits for this, but user user:Galassi has reverted them. We have discussed this on his Talk User_talk:Galassi, probably we should have had that discussion here.

I am going to try to summarize my position here, and I invite him to reply with his current objections.

First I would state a few things to avoid confusion: I do not confuse the cittern-like instrument that this article is about with the lute, nor am I making such a confusion with regard to the archilaúd. I make this point since those words in Spanish may also refer to the lute and the archlute, and so can lead to such confusion, and because Galassi seemed to think I confusing instrument families at least at the beginning our last discussion.

Secondly, I would like to point out that the body shape of the laúd itself can have two basic variations (as well as a number of variations in such things as the sound holes shapes), being either shaped just like the bandurria, or having two corners on the top half of the body. These variations may be seen here.

The archilaúd also also appears with both of those shapes. Here, on the site of the Spanish luthier Vicente Carrillo, you can see an archilaúd with the bandurria shape. He also make bandurrias and lauds and here you can the whole family of instruments on one page and see the size differences. Here is a page of instruments from another luthier where the 4th and 5th pictures (from the left) on the top row depict an archilaúd of the other shape; note that these picture's captions clearly identify the instrument as an archilaúd.

The Spanish musician Javier Mas is one of the more well known players of all three of these instruments. You can read about his playing them here and can see and a hear him play one here. Note that the laúds and archilaúds he plays are of the shape with the extra corners. For another example of someone playing an archilaúd of that shape see this video. Note the text with both videos describing the instrument as an archilaúd.

I am not sure how much clearer I can be or how much more evidence I should need to provide for the existence of this instrument.--Ericjs (talk) 19:16, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
 * There instrument Mas plays is not archilaud, because it lacks the characteristic "arch-", i.e. the neck extension for bass strings. Your citations are simply erroneous on the subject, they are not scholarly, but rather commercial.--Galassi (talk) 21:18, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
 * None of your sources fit the criteria of WP:RS.--Galassi (talk) 21:19, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Archilaud is the same instrument as an Archlute, a class of instruments with EXTENDED NECKS. Theorbo belongs to this category, but banrurria/laud DO NOT.--Galassi (talk) 21:21, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
 * You are confusing names and things. I've already gone into this. In Spanish "laud" generally means "lute". The laud this article describes is, as you know, a different instrument, but uses the same name (it's a Spanish folk instrument, and in English we simply borrow the Spanish word). Likewise "archilaud" in Spanish means archlute, but it also used to name the larger version of this cittern-like Spanish laud. I did not make up this usage, you find it in all the links I posted above. Whether this is based on, as language often is, mistaken etymology, I do not know nor is it relevant (I assume the name was used by analogy...archlute is a longer deeper lute, archilaud is a longer deeper laud). Your argument about this is specious. As to citations, I will try to find better ones, though I'm not so sure the weakness of my citations warrants reverting my changes.--Ericjs (talk) 22:10, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
 * In organological terms ARCHI means what I described above. You need to provide a reliable musicological source to support your term. The given source is no good.--Galassi (talk) 00:03, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
 * There are ARCHlutes, ANCHguitars, ARCHcitterns, ARCHmandoras etc. All of them are the way I described above. Don't waste our time.--Galassi (talk) 00:05, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
 * https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archila%C3%BAd. Case closed.--Galassi (talk) 00:21, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Why do you keep making specious arguments like this? I've already pointed out (several times, in fact) that the word archilaúd more commonly is used to mean archlute, just as the word laúd is more commonly used to mean lute. (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%BAd is similarly about the lute).--Ericjs (talk) 02:46, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Third opinion
Looked at this edit, and the above discussion.

I agree with the current version of the article. In the end, both editors have made arguments without any proper sources. For it being a subtype of a Laúd, the sources presented while not necessarily unreliable, do not support the statements, thus constituting Original research. This apparent blog seems to be by one Leonard Cohen, so partially reliable but makes no mention of anything about archilaúd being a subtype of a laúd; thus OR. So unless sources are presented which support the statements they are cited to, we cannot go any further here.

Note: I completely disapprove of how rollback was used while edit warring here. Rollback is only used for clear-cut vandalism. If I'm not mistaken, even 3RR was crossed and one of you could have been blocked. &#x2011;Ugog Nizdast (talk) 13:51, 20 October 2015 (UTC)