Talk:La Marseillaise/Archive 1

Order of the verses
I found much more pages in which the last verse begins with Nous entrerons than with Amour sacré. Araña de níquel 01:23, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

7th Nous entrerons (Couplet des enfants)

 * French President website Page cited in the article
 * france.diplomatie.fr Foreign affairs website Site cited in the article; same site as http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/
 * http://www.cndp.fr/actualites/question/marseillaise/suite.htm
 * http://www.lamarseillaise.info/
 * http://spaces.msn.com/members/temps/Blog/cns!1psctZp9-QIfTsdVM5w_QcNg!287.entry
 * http://geogate.geographie.uni-marburg.de/parser/parser.php?file=/deuframat/francais/2/2_3/sieburg/kap_6.htm
 * http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/snd/lamarseillaise.html
 * http://www.adminet.com/marseillaise.html (cited in the article; verses are numbered from 0 to 6).
 * eo:Marseljezo
 * es:La Marsellesa
 * et:Marseljees
 * it:La Marsellaise
 * ja:フランスの国歌
 * pt:A Marselhesa
 * ru:Марсельеза
 * wikisource:La Marseillaise

7th Amour sacré

 * http://www.marseillaise.org/english/francais.html (site cited in the article).
 * lb:La Marseillaise

Comments

 * The only site you ever needed to confirm this was http://www.elysee.fr/elysee/francais/les_symboles_de_la_republique/la_marseillaise/la_marseillaise.21106.html. —Cantus… ☎   01:54, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * I would say that the official site of the presidency of the republic is as definitive as it gets, so I believe we should revert to the old order. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:10, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * But the presidency is with the majority, so the original order is wrong. Araña de níquel 15:00, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Reliability of Wikipedia
The wrong order was on Wikipedia from 22-Apr-2002 to 10-Apr-2005. Almost 3 years. It seems it's true that Wikipedia is not reliable.

Any comments?

Araña de níquel 15:22, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nobody's perfect. When you consult sveral reputable source on some subjects you will sometimes discover some serious factual errors in some, it happened to me recently. Ericd 20:28, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

April 25th?

 * "La Marseillaise" is a song written and composed by Claude Joseph Rouget de Lisle at Strasbourg on April 25, 1792.

Was it written in a single day? Or released on that day? --Bz2 19:40, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think he wrote it in a single night. However this might be a legend. Ericd 20:20, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Xenophoby
I doubt that xenophoby is a big polemic. Could anybody give me any reliable source about this subject ? If you look at the lyrics, i guess two sentences will be pointed out: "What! These foreign cohorts!" and "Let impure blood Soak the furrows". They first one refer to the geopolitic situation in 1792, when La Marseillaise as written. A lot of european monarchy had declare war to France at this time and the "foreign cohorts" are refering to their armies marching to conquer France. The "impure blood" refers to the aristocrat bloo which was supposed to be blue. It symbolised the inegality of the Ancien Régime. If you look at the historic situation in France in 1792, still during the Revolution, and if you consider La Marseillaise as a song representative of this situation, as it should be, you can not assert any xenophoby in the lyrics.

You're right. But the context has changed and the polemic was a fact. However the accession of Jean-Marie Le Pen to the second turn of presidential election in 2002 made that many people gave the lyrics their "original sense" as would have said Serge Gainsbourg. You can include your coments in the article. Ericd 17:19, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's what i'll do after having removed the english mistakes. Thanks

Nos bras / Vos bras
An anonymous has recently changed "Ils viennent jusque dans vos bras" ("They are coming into your midst") into "Ils viennent jusque dans nos bras" ("They are coming into our midst"). Though official executions of the Marseillaise will read "your", the song is often popularly sung with "our". It might be interesting to leave this as a footnote of some sort... Rama 07:36, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Perfectly glad to see a footnote, but clearly the official version is authoritative. -- Jmabel | Talk 15:36, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

"La Carrière"
Interestingly, the expression "la Carrière" (often with a capital C) means a career in diplomacy; it might be worthwhile mentioning that here, it is not this expression which is used... I don't know how you'd integrate it :p Rama 08:20, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I think it's a career in the army here. Ericd 08:59, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


 * yes it is. I just say that the way they say it clashed with another expression. Rama 09:09, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Original Title
Its original name is "Chant de guerre de l'Armée du Rhin" ("Marching Song of the Rhine Army).

I don't know French, but doesn't "guerre" mean "war"? Where does "marching" come from? Josh Cherry 13:44, 13 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Litterally, Chant de guerre de l'Armée du Rhin translates into Song of war of the Rhine Army. The sort of the song you sing while marching toward a battle. "Marching song" in English. Rama 14:06, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Hornblower
Recent addition:


 * The song featured in the 1999 Hornblower film "The Frogs and the Lobsters", as it was sung by French villagers in defiance to the Colonel Moncoutant who had returned as part of an attempted Royalist invasion of France.

Is this really important enough to deserve a mention in an article about a national anthem? The Abel Gance film mentioned is easily one of the 100 most important French films of all time, and arguably one of the 10 most important French films of all time, so it belongs. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:54, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Similarly, Victory (movie). -- Jmabel | Talk 08:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

"Impure blood"
Im sorry but I think the current explanation in the article is "original researchish". Let's back this up, esp. since the author himself was a royalist. Ksenon 11:28, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Here is at least one claim (not something I'd consider citable) that it was a deliberate reversal of the nobility considering the blood of the people impure. If a citable discussion of this can be found on line, it's going to take some time, more than the few minutes I'm snatching right now in the middle of a workday. Yes, we could use a much better citation on this. Do keep in mind, though, that at that time one could be royalist but anti-noble. More than today, the royals were considered a class apart from the noblility. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:19, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

This was further changed to something clearly false, so I have cut it:

"In fact, the 'impure blood' which is subject to controversy, is not the blood of foreigners, but the blood of common people in contrast to the 'sang bleu', the 'blue blood' of the aristocrat."

If this is to be taken seriously, the singers of the Marseillaise would have to view the commoners as their enemies! Folks, this was not the anthem of the royalist nobility! - Jmabel | Talk 02:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if the "impure blood" actually refers to the blood of common people in contrast to the aritocratic blood but if it does, it probably means somthing like "we'll fight for freedom, shall we die from it" I'm not sure that the "impure blood" actually refers to the blood of common people though. I always thought it was to be taken with a somehow sarcastic tone, meaning that the blood of those privileged who'd always clamed to be noble is actually "impure".

I've heard it alleged that it DOES refer to the common people, and that it doesn't mean to imply that they are enemies, but martyrs. EWAdams (talk) 23:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It refers to the blood of the invader, of the enemy. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 03:42, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

The colloquial interpretation in Engish would be something like, "Let our blood flow together to cleanse the land." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:D690:2100:74FE:2675:6121:5DCB (talk) 01:17, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Anarchronism?
''In 1882, Pyotr Tchaikovsky used extensive quotes from the Marseillaise to represent the invading French army in his 1812 Overture. This was an anachronism, as the Marseillaise was the French anthem in Tchaikovsky's day, but not Napoleon's.''

Is this correct? La Marseillaise was the anthem (official or otherwise) during the Revolution, but not under Napoleon? What was used then? 71.156.15.166 20:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * See . Apparently there were a couple of contenders (including the Marseillaise) but no generally accepted national anthem. - Jmabel | Talk 06:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * So how is an anachronism? It was the anthem before Napoleon, it was the anthem after but there was no official anthem during, where is the against time, surely it is something that represents France otherwise I doubt it would of become the official anthem again in 1830 and 1879. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 21:16, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * i thought napoleon had it banned...--camr nag 22:24, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It's an anchronism in exactly the same way as painting a picture of George Washington with a U.S. flag in the background containing 50 stars. The 50 star version is the current version, but it didn't apply in Washington's time.  La Marseillaise was the anthem before Napoleon's time, and again later, but not at the time he was invading Russia.  Yes, it can be used as a general reference for France at any time, even for a time before the anthem was even composed - and that's OK as far as it goes - but using it in association with specific events that happened when La Marseillaise was not the legal anthem is by definition an anachronism.  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:44, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Other sections?
How do I link to the article like that: Belarusian Marseillaise? Should the new section be created, possibly? ---Yury Tarasievich 11:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't understand: as to how to link, from a technical point of view you just did it in your question. Could you try rewording this to explain what you are trying to do? - Jmabel | Talk 05:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Right, that was bit of a clumsy wording... I'd like to link the article on Belarusian Marseillaise here. What's the appropriate section to do this? Perhaps, a new section would be needed for that, named, e.g., "Marseillaise in other languages/cultures"? ---Yury Tarasievich 07:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Probably just a "See also" section immediately before "External links" - Jmabel | Talk 19:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Done. Looks somehow not right, though. What do you think? ---Yury Tarasievich 12:49, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Patrie
Is "motherland" a proper translation of Patrie? It comes from the Latin patria, from pater (father), meaning fatherland. It is related to the French pére (father), and the English patriarch. Anyway, I think "fatherland" is the right translation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lostcaesar (talk • contribs) 1 July 2006.


 * I agree with you on the parallel etymology, though "fatherland" in English has a very German connotation. The fact that we have no noun for a country derived from this Latin root makes it tricky. Other words off of the root—"patriot", "patriotism"—don't connect for an English speaker to "fatherland" but to "country". - Jmabel | Talk 20:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * While the french word 'patrie' may originate from the latin 'pater', the french call it la patrie (feminine)... not le patrie (masculine). Also, Marianne is the personification of France, a woman.  The french consider their country as a woman.  Germany is one of the few countries that considers the country as a father. - unsigned comment added by Marsnoir (talk • contribs)
 * Marianne is not a personification of France. She represents the Republic. Mezigue (talk) 09:53, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Not a place for anti-French vandalism
I found a link to an "unofficial" anthem and it was about a crapper song. This is highly inappropriate for an encyclopedia article on national anthems. Bona Fides 13:58, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think that the intention was "anti-French". That is a well known 'rugby-song' so its inclusion could very reasonably be said to be noteworthy, and therefore worth inclusion in the section of this article under 'unofficial versions'.  Therefore I dispute with the 'highly inappropriate' sentiment re encyclopaedic inclusion.  Whether or not the inclusion would cause offence is another matter - but the purpose of encyclopaedae is to record the noteworthy, irrespective of perceptions of 'appropriateness'.   Looking back at the removed link, it was from a well known (amongst French rugby circles) French language website, which, I think, does incline it to be included in respect of noteworthyness, rather than removed based on perceptions of appropriateness. This is not an excuse to include wanton abuse, of course, but there is a line between when something that may be seen by some to be abusive, and others to be merely 'fun'.  And if the 'fun' becomes widely known, then it becomes noteworthy. What 'widely known' means is, of course, another question, but there is plenty in Wikipedia that is of minimal noteworthyness.  I myself, merely write this as I think the reason for removal appears rather knee-jerk (that is how it is read), whereas those who know something of rugby (such as myself) will know otherwise.  I vote for re-inclusion of the said removed reference - although its reinstatement could be better accompanied with a more descriptive reason for its inclusion, to prevent the appearance of it being gratuitous abuse. For those looking for the link, see here, and look for 'M' and "en Anglais".  Those with opinions on this issue (either way) might also care to look at the football chant article --Phillip Fung 04:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Restricted link
A link to a restricted New York Times article was recently added as a reference. Would someone who has access to this please follow it and provide a proper citation (article name, author, date, page)? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 02:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

...and some propositions have been made to change the anthem or the lyrics. citation 3... vote for removal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.126.76.75 (talk • contribs).

lot of approximations
I think that there is a lot of aproximations in the translation:

The ordened sentence in french is imo : « L'étendart sanglant de la tyranie est levé contre nous »

"The bloodied banner of tyrany is raised against us". After this, i don't have the skills for make it sound more "tricky" like it is in the french version.

The accurate English translation would be something like ''Free us from tyranny. The bloodied banner has been raised'' (repeat) (2 seperate sentences) Now in English it doesn't sound as good if you put it this way, but it really is more accurate because it keeps the ambiguity of the French version: you can't tell if the bloodied banner has been raised by tyranny against us, or if WE have raised the bloodied banner; and are confident that this banner which is ours shall free us from tyranny. which means that we've already started to fight against tyranny "hence the bloodied banner: we lost our blood fighting tyranny" I always thought that anyway, I was bemused when I read the English version (I thought : all these days, was it what it actually meant?) I don't think so after all.

I'm not sure here because i'm not sure of the meaning of "plan" here. But méditer is an old french works which don't mean the same thing today (méditer meant « médire » : "to slander " i think, and today it mean méditer like buddhist méditation).

« Faire la loi » in french don't mean "make laws" (« faire les lois »). In french when you say that someone « fait la loi », it means that he is the "mastah", a stupid leader in a way. It sounds disparaging for the ruler

Really aproximative imo.

Here it is too litteral : « triste » don't have the meaning of "sad" here.

Same : « À regret » don't mean "they may regret" imo.

"bloody" means "damned" in english ? "Bloody" means really "bloody" (in the meaning of pouring blood) in french.

« Patriotique » and « De la Patrie » don't really have the same meaning, but well, it's a detail.

Cordialy

-- Meithal 23:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Franco-Russian rapprochement
Should any mention be made of the occasion on which this song was played in Russia in front of the reactionary czar Alexandr III to celebrate the new Franco-Russian alliance/rapprochement? Brutannica 02:52, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Theme music from an old computer game? Is this notable information?
I'd suggest removing this... hardly a notable usage of a national anthem, unless it created significant controversy:


 * Glass Joe from Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!, a Nintendo Entertainment System boxing game, uses part of the song as his ring theme.

Mtford 23:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

adapted from Viotti?
It has been recently added that the music was adapted from a work by Viotti. However, this work is titled "variazioni sulla marsigliese" (indicating that it is based on the Marseillaise, rather than the contrary). I was not able to find any other reference giving the same date of 1784. Incidentally, Viotti was in France during this period (1784 and 1792); he has probably been exposed to the theme and played around it. Besides, the Mozart connection is very well documented. Should we suppress this reference?--Toitoine 07:57, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Fatherland?
In German, fatherland is spelled with a capital letter and on Sarkozy's presidential site 'Patrie' is translated as 'motherland', (a good example of Jewish paranoia).

Americans sing 'My country, 'tis of thee' and not 'My fatherland (or motherland) 'tis of thee.' Not 'Fatherland', not 'motherland', but 'our country'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.172.191.140 (talk) 17:56, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * So what if the American anthem has different words? That's different song. "Our country" sounds weird as a translation of "la Patrie" and should only be used if it fits the meter better.
 * If the French presidential site translates it as "motherland", that's because that's actually a good translation. We do use "motherland" and "mother country" in English. That's why the German "fatherland" sounds so harsh to our ears. It's used in English to convey the connotations that the German has. But "patrie" has the same etymology so maybe we should translated it as "fatherland" too?
 * Does anyone know whether there is a set of English lyrics that are considered official? Because this would settle any arguments. Nick (talk) 12:39, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

About Mireille Mathieu singing La Marseillaise
On July 1, 2008 I allured a certain kind of Wikipedia fanatic (with the remark "Jewish paranoia") and, as expected, the next day he (TFCforever) went into action. He changed

bloodied banner to bloody banner (blimey!)

roar to howling (dehumanization of enemy, facilitating killing of other human being)

march to walk (?)

tainted blood to impure blood (connotes the interdict against intermarriage in Israel and other theocracies)

slaughter to cut the throat (during the kosher slaughter the animal is exsanguinated by cutting its throat)

French army officers to Napoleonic officers

German to Nazi

and we could go on.

He also deleted link to Mireille Mathieu singing La Marseillaise. TFCforever knows nothing about Mireille Mathieu, he does not know French, he does not know about France and, nevertheless, he feels entitled to defile the Marseillaiese with his racist, uninformed, and closed-minded "edits."

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.172.183.140 (talk) 22:52, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Good sir, I apologize for this mess I seem to have created. I am utterly confused by the edit, as all I thought I did was to add the sound file (Francia.ogg) from Wikimedia Commons.  I was prepping a project for Esperanto Wikipedia (please see eo:Vikipediisto:TFCforever and my contributions) in which I created a number of infoboxes for anthems on which eo wiki has articles.  When I found the collection of national anthem audio files on Commons, I noticed that there was a sound file for the French national anthem.  I added it to the article and, as can be noticed by the minor edit tag and edit summary, saved it thinking that this was all I had changed, the one addition to the infobox.  However, I was careless and did not check the edit summary, so these other changes, which I am unfamiliar with and have no idea what they mean or what they imply, are a complete shock to me.  I don't have any idea how they got there and I am shocked and startled by them and what, as you tell me, they imply.  You're right, I know nothing about France, can't speak French, etc., etc., so I am reverting my edits and trying to add what I originally intended in the first place without all that strange garbage.  I'm sorry for the mess, and I'll have it cleaned up right away.  TFCforever (talk) 01:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

translation of "patrie"
I have never heard anybody in the U.S. use the word "motherland". The whole image of "enfants de la Patrie" (children of the parent country or whatever) sounds odd to Americans; for us a government is not comparable to a family and calling a government "paternalistic" is usually an insult. Can't we just admit that the concept doesn't translate? And where on earth did the racial slur "Jewish paranoia" come from? CharlesTheBold (talk) 03:48, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Motherland!

 * Copied from last time this was discussed:
 * So what if the American anthem has different words? That's different song. "Our country" sounds weird as a translation of "la Patrie" and should only be used if it fits the meter better.
 * If the French presidential site translates it as "motherland", that's because that's actually a good translation. We do use "motherland" and "mother country" in English. That's why the German "fatherland" sounds so harsh to our ears. It's used in English to convey the connotations that the German has. But "patrie" has the same etymology so maybe we should translated it as "fatherland" too?
 * Does anyone know whether there is a set of English lyrics that are considered official? Because this would settle any arguments. Nick (talk) 12:39, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I still think that an official English translation would be best but as no-one has shown us anything official-looking looks like we need to do this ourselves.
 * I'm still arguing that "Patrie" (especially with that capital) is much stronger than "country". This should be reflected in the translation if possible. It doesn't matter whether you have ever heard someone say "motherland", all that matters is that it's a valid English idiom. If you doubt that, consult a dictionary. Both "motherland" and "fatherland" appear in the OED but motherland is far more common. Thus, the concept does translate pretty easily.
 * I'm going to change it on the page, change it only if you can find an official version that contradicts this (Presidental website agrees with me. Nick (talk) 12:50, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Lyrics correction
Could a person with a better knowledge of French please review this?--Thanks, Ainlina(box)? 17:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This English translation seems correct to me, except this verse : "La terre en produit de nouveaux, The earth will bear new (ones?)". The earth doesn't simply "carry" new soldiers, it produces them. There's an harvest allegory that we don't find in the translation. The significance is that the national ground "produces", "gives birth" to soldiers...
 * The word "Patrie", according to its Latin root, should be translated into " Fatherland", because it comes from the Latin word "Pater" who gave the word "père" in French meaning father in English..
 * Sarkozy is not jewish. His father comes from Hungary and Hungarians are christians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.240.217.100 (talk) 15:06, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * +"Égorger nos fils, nos compagnes", litteraly means "To slit the throats of ours sons and wives".
 * In the French culture, the noble ones claimed to have an ascent, a genealogy so noble that their blood had become blue, pure. But the révolutionnaires would have reversed this idea by claiming that the endogamic relations between nobles had returned their blood impure.81.240.217.100 (talk) 15:17, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Mozartian antecedent?
I removed the speculated Mozartean antecedent from the "Arrangements". First because its not an arrangement, second because its not cited and third because its facts are mixed up. Its not the "first twelve notes" and its not at the *end* of the first movement.

The relevant moment in the concerto is in the exposition. Following the grand g major dah-dah-dah-DAH cadence of the first theme group and a pause, the second theme group starts in measure 50 with g8 g8 g8 c4 c4 d4 d4 e-flat4. It is quite similar. The main difference is that in the Marsailles the leading three notes are dotted and the last note would be a bit higher (high-g in this key). Steinberg does note that it does remind listeners of the as yet unwritten Marseillaise but Flothius states that its unlikely that Rouget de L'Isle knew the concerto..

Documenting the issue here on the talk page. Yes, there are similarities that have been recognized by many, but its also a very basic tune (at least where it overlaps with the concerto). I'll leave it to editors here judge if this antecedent is worth mentioning. DavidRF (talk) 17:46, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Motherland/Fatherland
Reviving this discussion... in English, both words are used. However, I think motherland is the one that most closely matches the meaning intended. Fatherland tends to be used as a translation of the German Vaterland and, when used, generally has connotations of the bad kind of nationalism. If a native speaker wants to express the idea of the 'parent country' in the way intended by Patrie, they will say motherland.

It's difficult, because neither word is really used very often, but I feel translating Patrie as fatherland adds emotional layers to the English that are not in the original French.

And the shared roots of the words seem fairly irrelevant. 89.168.19.118 (talk) 12:16, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think we should worry too much about emotional layers as they are difficult to quantify. In any case La Marseillaise is a very strongly-worded song to say the least.  Mezigue (talk) 12:24, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It's true it is strongly-worded, but I think this translation is actually deceptive. Fatherland is not used in English where Patrie is used here; motherland is the right flavour. It's like using abnormal and extraordinary; both mean not normal, but they are not interchangeable. Fatherland doesn't really make sense. Do you actually have an objection to motherland as a translation of Patrie here? If not, I'll change it in a few hours. 89.168.19.118 (talk) 01:54, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Motherland feels too revisionist. Dozens of countries have Fatherland-like expressions for national pride and we're suppose to revise the translation of them because one country's nationalism was the "bad kind"?  Isn't that deceptive?  This anthem was written in 1792 before the nation with the bad kind of nationalism existed.  What do french-english dictionaries say?DavidRF (talk) 02:23, 2 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Revisionist? How is it revisionist to use a word that conveys the meaning of the original, rather than a word that conveys a meaning that was not intended? Dozens of countries have Fatherland like expressions; English uses Motherland where France uses Patrie. Does German have a Motherland-like expression? How would you translate Motherland into German? Wouldn't you just use Vaterland, because that is the word in German that most closely conveys the meaning to German-speakers?


 * If you want to feel it is closer to the French, why then notice how Patrie is a feminine noun. Notice how French also has the phrase mère patrie which also translates as homeland just as Patrie does. But I feel this is all rather irrelevant. It wouldn't be revisionist to translate dénaturer as distort rather than denature when it refers to facts, even though dénaturer clearly has more roots in common with the word denature. This is because the English word denature doesn't mean the same as the French word dénaturer there, but distort does. Equally, fatherland doesn't mean what the French Patrie means there; the meaning is better reflected in motherland. Dictionaries say it is a feminine noun that translates as homeland, country, motherland, fatherland, etc.


 * I am a child of my motherland, I speak my mother tongue, and this is the way my mother tongue translates "Allons enfants de la Patrie": "Come, children of the Motherland". Children of the Fatherland is a strange, grating phrase in English that doesn't convey the same meaning; it implies actual children. It is a deceptive translation, because it is doesn't translate the word into a word with the same meaning.


 * The rest of the translation looks really good as far as I can tell; perhaps the person writing it didn't grow up reading as many old children's books as I did :P Does anyone have any other objections to changing the inaccurate fatherland to the more accurate motherland? 89.168.19.118 (talk) 11:41, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * yes I object. Motherland is not more accurate.  I think you are imagining those nuances between the two. Mezigue (talk) 13:47, 2 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The word gender is a red herring. La terre, le territoire, la nation, le pays.  Seems pretty random.  Plus, the land is the noun and mother/father the descriptor.  I understand false cognates too (aider->assist, assister->attend, attendre->wait, etc.)  What I meant by revisionist here is that it was translated for over a hundred years as "fatherland", changing it now seems a bit odd.  Yes, the phrasing is a bit on the colorful side but its a poem... an eighteenth century one at that.  Spain's national anthem has the similar word translated the same way.  Same with Portugal.  Should those be changed too?  Taking into effect modern connotations, one *could* argue that Motherland has a Soviet connotation.  Anyhow, I don't have any vested interested in promoting one translation over another.  We just report things here.  If there is an official translation, we should just defer to that with a citation and not squabble over poetic connatations and flavors on the talk page.DavidRF (talk) 16:50, 2 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Fine, if that's the consensus. I strongly disagree (and I think the Fatherland article backs me up on the difference in English), but it's not a big deal. Word gender is not random, but that's a discussion for another time, and the point of both examples was that the word doesn't seem to carry automatic connotations of Father to a French-speaker. I don't think it's revisionist, because we are not trying to translate the song into 18th century English in general.


 * The 'official' translation? Jean Migrenne, official translator at the Caen Memorial for Peace Museum, translates the whole phrase as "Sons of the fatherland, let's stand", clearly adding gender. Meanwhile, the website of the French presidency gives it as "Arise you children of our Motherland !". I had assumed that people taking part in this discussion had already read the discussions above where people pointed out that the official French government website give the translation as motherland, but I suppose it doesn't really matter. What would they know? 89.168.19.118 (talk) 19:26, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Just as a tongue-in-cheek late addition, "we Germans" call it Vaterland (fatherland), but Muttersprache (mother tongue). And yes, Vaterland is a term strongly tainted by the Nazi ideology, to the point that you cannot really use it without nationalistic connotation anymore. Since we don't have any other term, we generally avoid it altogether. Make of that what you want. ;-) -- 145.228.61.5 (talk) 08:53, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Can't this be translated without using the words father or mother ? In French, "mère patrie" (you can't say "père patrie") means the original country colons come from. For example, the "mère patrie" of Quebecois is France. Bohan (talk) 15:36, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Headbomb's translation
Some things just strikes me as odd, so (I am a native French speaker), here's how I would translate it (sticking to the original as close as possible), along with comments

I'll upload each change in sequence so they can be reverted individually Headbomb {{{sup|ταλκ}}κοντριβς – WP Physics} 19:43, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Moi aussi je suis bilingue (et Français, par dessus la marché), et cette traduction ne me convient pas. Quand j'aurai plus de temps, je ferai de plus amples commentaires. En attendant, plusieurs points de détails me dérangent (e.g. "fatherland"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.193.75.43 (talk) 22:38, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Mugir
I think the translation is OK except for « Mugir » : « Mugir ces féroces soldats ? », which is translated as: "those ferocious soldiers roaring?," which does not sound idiomatic to me. I do not think English-speaking people say: "soldiers / people roar." (NB : The English word for "roar" of a crowd of people in French is (verbs) « hurler » or « rugir », (nouns) « hurlement, rugissement ». « Mugir » should be translated as "roar" in English when used to describe the sound of the the ocean: "roar of the sea.") -- For the sound of human voices, « mugir » should be translated to English as "wail" or "wailing" (which is the preferred translation indicated in my Dictionnaire Le Robert Senior, 2002). Thus, "Wailing of those ferocious soldiers?" is much better. Bien amicalement, Charvex (talk) 09:44, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Jusque
« Ils viennent jusque dans vos bras », "They come up to your arms". This translation is not quite right. « Jusque » is another expression with hundreds of nuanced meanings in conversation. Here, it means the soldiers are "coming into" or "right into" the arms of the people. (I think Americans say "in your face," which actually says it best.) So, "come up to" is not strong enough. -- Also the verb here is translated not quite right. -- Thus, I will change this to: "They are coming right into your arms." (Note: This translation can be verified in Dictionnaire Le Robert Senior, 2002 - called Unabridged Edition, in English editions. I also ran this line through Google Translations, which also translated « jusque » as "right into" for this expression.) Tchao, Charvex (talk) 08:56, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

of the
« Contre nous de la tyrannie / L'étendard sanglant est levé », "Against us of the tyranny's / Bloody banner is raised". I don't think this is correct; « de la » should not be translated as "of the"; it is not necessary in English. I will replace it by a comma, i.e. "Against us, tyranny's / Bloody banner is raised". Amicalement, Charvex (talk) 08:56, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Music
So, finally who is a composer? Giovanni Battista Viotti? (why he is indicated without any source?) Ignace Pleyel? (Why no more information in his article?) Or maybe Jean-Baptiste Lucien Grisons from Saint-Omer? Sverige2009 (talk) 14:35, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Translation of title
The following discussion was copied from a user talk page:

On July 15, 2010, you edited the translation of the title "La Marseillaise" from "The [Song] of Marseille" to "The [Song of] Marseille". I do not know French well, but isn't the word Marseillaise an adjective, meaning of Marseille, in the style of Marseille, or something similar? (I'm thinking of Lyonnaise, Bordelaise and similar adjectives as examples.) Marseillaise is not technically a noun, an alternate form of the name Marseille, is it? If it is true that Marseillaise is an adjective and not a noun, then La Marseillaise would be translated literally (and very awkwardly) into English as The of-Marseille. (I put the hyphen between of and Marseille to indicate that both English words are inherent in the single French word Marseillaise, but the hyphen would never appear there in actual use.) But since English - unlike French - does not allow a definite article and an adjective to stand alone without a noun, a noun must be inserted where it can be simply implied in French. The noun that fits best here is Song, and since of is already contained in the adjective Marseillaise, only the word Song should be enclosed in square brackets. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I will not undo your edit unless you approve. Thanks. --Jim10701 (talk) 21:00, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * You are not correct. I replied to this on your page. Tchao ! Charvex (talk) 10:57, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to copy your excellent response here, but anyone who wants to read it can do so on my talk page. I understand your point: Marseillaise in this case is a noun, not an adjective; and it refers to a garrison named for the city, not to the city itself, changed from the masculine Marseillais to the feminine Marseillaise because here it refers to a song; thanks for the explanation. (I am a native English speaker, by the way, and your English is fine - a lot better than my French.)


 * Your mentioning New Yorker gave me an idea of how best to fix the problem here. English does lack demonyms for many places in France (and elsewhere: Madrid is an example of one that is not in France, and there are others all over the world; Cairo, Beijing, Bangkok and Tokyo come to mind as well - and even Dallas. English has a hard time forming adjectives from place names, although a demonym for any place can be forced by adding -ite, -an, etc, onto the name; so we could legitimately fabricate Marseillian as a demonym for Marseille if we wanted to).


 * But one nice feature of English is that practically any noun can be used as an adjective by simply placing it before the noun it modifies: New York Times, car seat, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, army unit, Dallas Cowboys, basketball goal, London Bridge, English speaker, etc (although the last example is ambiguous since English can be either an adjective referring to England or a noun referring to its language; I am not English, but I am a native speaker of the language).


 * If we translate La Marseillaise as The Marseille [Song] instead of as either The [Song of] Marseille or The [Song] of Marseille, we preserve Marseillaise as a noun but give it the adjectival sense it needs in English, and we don't have to decide where to put the word of. That construction also has the advantage of simply identifying the word Song as having some unspecified connection to the word Marseille, but it need not be a connection directly to the city itself; it could be a garrison named Marseillais that was itself named for the city but was located somewhere else.


 * That seems to me like the best solution. I will make the change in the article. I will also copy this discussion onto its talk page. Thanks very much.--Jim10701 (talk) 14:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Translation of "sans-culottes"
The translation of "Faisant la guerre aux Sans-Culottes" as "Waging war on the unclothed (lit. without-breeches)" is probably incorrect - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sans-culottes - the Sans-culottes were not naked from the waist down, rather they wore the working-class long trousers rather than the bourgeois knee-breeches.

I'd suggest simply something like "Waging war on the common man", with a link to the Sans-culottes article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.158.7.148 (talk) 00:35, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Lost in translation
Some of my edits have been undone because of "unverified content," one bening translations and another fixing parts of the song not included. For the translation, "Allons" when translated literally means "Let's go" and "Marchez" means "you march" as an imperative or in this case "Go march" is an appropriate translation. Also, the second half of the refrain was missing "where 'marchez' is 'marchons', so I added that as seen in every version of La Marseillaise http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K1q9Ntcr5g&t=30s . 24.98.149.109 (talk) 05:58, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Someone's random video on YouTube is not a reliable source; the official web site of the President of the French Republic is. As far as the English translation goes, since there doesn't seem to be any official version, a brief scan of this page shows that the existing one was developed over time by a consensus of editors. You need to get a similar consensus for any proposed changes, no matter how accurate you personally believe they are. Fat&#38;Happy (talk) 06:20, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure "a consensus of editors" is a much more reliable source. For example, I'm pretty sure "sillons" means fullers, not furrows. The impure blood isn't on their foreheads, it's in the grooves of their sword blades. Seems like I'm not the only one to have a problem with the weird translation here. If there isn't a reliable source for an English translation then there shouldn't be an English translation on Wikipedia. A translation by a bunch of wiki editors would be original research, which isn't allowed here. Remove the whole thing, or find a source and reproduce it verbatim.97.116.161.220 (talk) 20:04, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi, I just read your message. I'm French, and yes Sillons means in this case, the lines engraved that run in the middle of the sword. It allows the bood of the enemy to run along the blade, and avoid the blood to stay on the metal. Hope it helps.--Gabriel Haute Maurienne (talk) 22:55, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Why no mention of "Marche Henri IV", which it replaced?
"Marche Henri IV" says it was the nominal national anthem of the Kingdom of France up until the French Revolution in 1789, then again by the restored monarchy after 1815.

But we're saying that during Napoleon I's reign, Veillons au Salut de l'Empire was the unofficial anthem of the regime, and in Napoleon III's reign, it was Partant pour la Syrie. No mention of "Marche Henri IV".

What's the real story? -- ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  02:22, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The other article seems to be inaccurate, and certainly unsourced. Mezigue (talk) 09:08, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

In popular culture
Several instances of the song in popular culture were removed with this edit. Someone interested could try to reference them to reliable sources and add them back. Diego (talk) 09:37, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The section is way too big, and rather pointless. Mezigue (talk) 10:30, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * That doesn't exempt us from following proper policy. Diego (talk) 13:54, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The editor seems to have followed WP:TRIVIA quite properly and, if anything, did not go far enough in removing the ugly plaque buildup in that section; I would say there is even more work to do. A pop culture list about a world-famous topic like this could theoretically go on forever if the bar is set so low that videogame snippets and TV show jokes qualify. The entries should be collated and streamlined and presented in sensible prose rather than simply making a huge bulleted list. If the entries matter at all, it should be possible to connect them in coherent (and sourced) sentences and paragraphs like any other section. This mess was distracting, unilluminating, and seriously diminishing to the subject matter. SteveStrummer (talk) 15:21, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Viotti as author?
I've just listened (Rai - Radiotre) to Tema e Variazioni in C major for violin and orchestra of Viotti, written in 1781 and recorded by the violinist Guido Rimonda for a Decca CD. The full melody (not just the theme) is identical to Marseillaise, no doubt. In the Decca disc's booklet there is also a photo of Viotti's original score. In wiki.it this fact is accepted and there are a lot of external sources (in italian) that confirm this claim: Universal Music, Guido Rimonda's page, Il "caso" della Marsigliese nel secondo Violin Concertos - La Stampa article, [http://espresso.repubblica.it/dettaglio/la-marsigliese-e-di-un-italiano/2206680 ''La Marsigliese? E' di un italiano'' - L'Espresso article] --Schickaneder (talk) 08:23, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Schumann's "Grenadiers"
The description of the context of the Mars. quotation in the lieder is inaccurate. In fact, neither grenadier is old. And neither dies.

Instead, one grenadier describes how devastated he is at the news of the destruction of the grand army and confinement of the emperor.

His companion one-ups him by declaring he will die on the spot. At that point, the melody changes to La Marseillaise, continuing to the end. He says he will lie in the grave with his weaponry, awaiting the resumption of the trumpets and drums. And the emperor will ride right over his grave. And he will arise fully weaponed to guard the emperor. (Dann reitet der Kaiser wohl ueber mein Grab. Viel Schwerter klirren und blitzen.  Dann steig ich gewaffnet hervor aus dem Grab, den Kaiser den Kaiser zu schuetzen.)

(Remembered from repeated listenings to Fischer-Dieskau's recording 45 years ago.)

Viotti, a proof
The original manuscript for Viotti's Tema e Variazioni has officially surfaced a few months ago. It bears the 1781 date and can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3cISg625lk at around 4:00 --Purple74 (talk) 09:24, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Why the Spanish?
Where I play the audio, captioned lyrics appear in Spanish. Why Spanish? Why not French? Yopienso (talk) 05:54, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

General Strasbourg of France ???
Hello, Is this the right quote of what Cerulo said ?

Cerulo says, "the design of 'La Marseillaise' is credited to General Strasbourg of France, who is said to have directed de Lisle, the composer of the anthem, to 'produce one of those hymns which conveys to the soul of the people the enthusiasm which it (the music) suggests.' "[1]

Weird to read that when we read "Mayor of Strasbourg" below (as it is the Baron de Dietrich, mayor of Strasbourg)

I can't verify Cerulo's article but guess it needs to be modified.

Excuse for any mistake, my first talk here in wiki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saelendil (talk • contribs) 14:04, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Possible inclusion of Belgian PM Leterme's gaffe somewhere?
I don't know where this should be placed, but surely it is of some importance that the Flemish Christian Democratic PM candidate sang this instead of <> when asked if he knew his country's national anthem. (On public TV.....)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6911509.stm

He seems to have survived the gaffe, but it's interesting given the language and identity issues the song conveys as well as the Flemish/French divide in Belgium at the time (which continues). 205.172.21.143 (talk) 18:31, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Simon Schama
144.73.94.1 (talk) 17:59, 8 December 2015 (UTC)Does the quote by Schama belong in the first sentence of this entry? It's an interesting quote, but I don't think it should be featured at the top of the entry. Thanks144.73.94.1 (talk) 17:59, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I find it difficult to accept the motivation of this revert, since:
 * Simon Schama is a distinguished scholar, professor at the Columbia University;
 * He specializes in French history, and in particular in the French Revolution (cf. Citizens: A Chronicle of the French Revolution);
 * He's British, so you might not count his opinions on La Marseillaise as the mumbling expression of the exagerrated chauvinism of a backward Frenchman;
 * He was recorded by the BBC;
 * The background of this interview is the terrorists attacks of last November, reason why he was interviewed by hte Beeb, and why he recalled that this anthme epitomizes "the great example of courage and solidarity when facing danger."

Consequently, I would invite Mezigue not to use such humorously feeble argument ("not notable at all ", really ?) to remove sourced material.

We may discuss the formulation of the sentence, but erasing it all seems to me, given its source, to be a really unreasonnable move.

I welcome intelligent discussion; I am, however, not so much fond of four-words ukases.

Huiva (talk) 23:00, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
 * We might reduce the size of the sentence, but I think it looks great like that in that introduction. We still have the long version later in the article. Huiva (talk) 23:09, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The problem is not one of sourcing, it's more the focus on recent events in the lede when La Marseillaise is a two hundred year-old song with a complex history and heritage that bothers me. Mezigue (talk) 10:17, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Would dropping (or reducing the size of) the " In the wake of the terrorist attacks on France in November 2015" do? Huiva (talk) 17:59, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Definitely. I am still uneasy about giving a remark made on television - as opposed to the argument of a book - quite such prominence. Mezigue (talk) 11:57, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I put that part of the sentence in brackets of the reference tag so that to reduce the overall size of the sentence. Huiva (talk) 18:27, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

How about ditch the entire paragraph ? it's pointless, stupid, and irrelevant. Who cares what "Simon Schama" says (except maybe his daughters ?) In the Grand Scheme of things, he ain't shitte. (Using Chaucer's terminology) 210.22.142.82 (talk) 02:52, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Viotti vs deLisle
Sources are nor unanimous to attribute Marseillaise's music to R. deLisle. Even Viotti is considered as the author of that music: see Alex Marshall - « Here’s a quote from Frédéric Frank-David, former director of the Memorial de la Marseillaise, and the man who should know: "There is a certain amount of probability that Rouget had been inspired by Viotti’s tune, be it consciously or unconsciously…"» tune is that''. Some scholars about Viotti as Guido Rimonda say that Viotti's Tema e variazioni in Do maggiore was written 10 years before R. deLisle's Marseillaises. Even french people are not so sure about deLisle's Marseillaise. --93.35.217.105 (talk) 11:24, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * this is one of several theories but by no means a generally accepted one, so do not give it undue prominence . See WP:FRINGE.  Mezigue (talk) 13:09, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * The question is not if Rouget de Lisle is or not the author of the music. The question is was he inpired by Viotti. Because there is no certitude about the year Viotti composed his variations, the question is not closed. --H2O(talk) 14:12, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * @Mezigue,@Jmh2o: yours are just a frenchcentric viewpoint: but even in France there is not consensus about that. The point is that no one source affirm without any doubt that DeLisle is the only author of that music, so wikipedians can add sourced notions about, and you are not allowed to delete them. Wikipedia accept different historical points of views, and to prefer only DeLisle one is to give him undue prominence. Please don't revert sourced insertions, thanks--93.35.217.105 (talk) 15:48, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm belgian :) And you, just a one topic user . And you say "there is not consensus". No consensus is ok. So the page must say is also. --H2O(talk) 16:05, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Si je dois regarder votre contribution sur Wikipedia, vous êtes mal barré sur le sujet. Please don't delete sources.--93.35.217.105 (talk) 16:24, 14 March 2016 (UTC) --93.35.217.105 (talk) 16:23, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * It is funny that some Anonymous (Mr. Guido Rimonda, perhaps), pushing for a nationalistic Italian view of History, calls other people "frenchcentric". --Edelseider (talk) 16:32, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not Rimonda ! :-)) ....màgari!. Talking (only) about R. deLisle is to have a "french-centric" point of view. No one source, without any doubt about, affirm that deLisle is the author of the Marseillaise.--93.35.217.105 (talk) 16:50, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * We should settle on formulating that a new theory attributes the melody to Viotti, and that the composition where Viotti employs a similar tune may or may not have been composed before the Marseillaise. Apparently, there is no consensus on the date. --Edelseider (talk) 16:59, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Is not a new theory because e variazioni in Do maggiore is a Viotti's work without any doubt. And is dated 1781. Is not true that there is not consensus about the date, just that the original score has not been yet deeply studied by others scholars. But until now there are no reasons to doubt. Nobody affirms that Tema e variazioni in Do maggiore'' is not belonging to Viotti or that the date is a fake. There are some doubts, but even on deLisle doubts are a lot.--93.35.217.105 (talk) 17:26, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Strictly speaking, Rimonda isn't a scholar, either. Which studied musicologists have taken a stand on the issue?--Edelseider (talk) 17:31, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * That is your POV. Rimonda is a scholar of Viotti by the fact that he owned the original score of Tema e variazioni in Do maggiore, score that has been deeply studied (by Rimonda), before affirm that was the Marsellaise. You don't like Rimonda? --93.35.217.105 (talk) 17:45, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Ownership is not expertise. Did you know that Donald Trump owns a painting by Pierre-Auguste Renoir? Now, don't tell me he's a "scholar" just because he proudly owns that valuable piece of art. What about your "likings" - do you have something against the French? Was Viotti one of your ancestors or are you just doing a "Cinque Stelle" on us?--Edelseider (talk) 17:54, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Donald Trump doesn't say that his Renoir was painted by Picasso. I like France and the Marseillaise, but that is OT. Why do you think that Rimonda is a crazy one! Why he should affirm that Tema e variazione in Do maggiore is not a work of Viotti? What's wrong to write (sourcing it) that Tema e variazione in Do maggiore is the Marseillaise? have you ever heard it? --93.35.217.105 (talk) 18:13, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Stop. Je suis complètement indifférant quant au compositeur de la musique de La Marseillaise. Mais comme le sujet est polémique, tant qu'il n'y a pas une source de qualité, un musicologue reconnu publiant dans un ouvrage de référence, Viotti est une hypothèse parmi d'autres. Rien de plus, rien de moins… --H2O(talk) 18:16, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * D'accord, une hypothèse parmi d'autres, donc même Viotti, pas seulement deLisle.--93.35.217.105 (talk) 18:26, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Une hypothèse parmi d'autre : Mozart, par exemple. Rouget de Lisle est clairement l'auteur du texte. Peut-être l'auteur de la musique pour laquelle il n'y a pas de certitude. Tant que l'article en reste à formuler des hypothèse concernant le compositeur, sans privilégier l'un ou l'autre sans source digne d'une encyclopédie, c'est sans problème. --H2O(talk) 18:48, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * D’accord, mais après tout il reste ce "tema e variazione in do maggiore". Que faisons-nous avec ce travail de Viotti? ..nous prétendons qu'elle n'existe pas!. Ceci est inacceptable! :-)) ( ......we can not forget the music of Viotti. It would not be intellectually honest) --93.35.217.105 (talk) 21:21, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I added it to the cited possible antecedents a while back. What you cannot do is state categorically that Viotti is the composer. Mezigue (talk) 08:54, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I've used problably and highly debated. Please don't delete sources--93.35.217.105 (talk) 09:25, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
 * You used these terms as a means to push you Italo-centric point of view more gracefully - it's a tactic, nothing else. Where is the "high" debate or, for that matter, the "debate"? It is not the Shakespeare authorship question we are dealing with here, just with some Italian nationalists (and I say that as someone who loves Italian culture) who'd seize any opportunity.--Edelseider (talk) 09:17, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
 * PS: You *are* Guido Rimonda. Shame on you!!--Edelseider (talk) 09:21, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not Rimonda. I think you got something wrong in your head, and I think it's something really serious. I don't care anymore to discuss e to contribute on the article; bye bye.--93.35.217.105 (talk) 18:03, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Academic conference
The NYT had a good summary of an academic conference about the Marseillaise, which identifies some of the important ideas of cultural criticism.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/arts/music/the-twists-and-turns-of-la-marseillaise.html The Twists and Turns of ‘La Marseillaise’ By ALEX MARSHALL New York Times DEC. 13, 2016 This month, about 100 academics, government officials and military personnel gathered at a daylong conference at the French Defense Ministry to help mark an end to that commemoration. They debated the song’s meaning, especially its climax that calls on people to “water the fields with impure blood” (the debate was over whose blood it was). They discussed how its melody had inspired revolutionaries from Russia to Chile. And they listened to countless versions of it, a feminist “Marseillaise” going down particularly well (its chorus — “Tremble, tremble, jealous husbands” — was met with laughter).

--Nbauman (talk) 16:37, 13 December 2016 (UTC)