Talk:La Martinière College, Lucknow/Archive 1

Adoption
FAMustafa 12:53, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Image Request
FAMustafa 13:06, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Assess
This is a great set of information - presented in a non wiki style. If you can use the ref and references tags and add more sub headings then this could be one of the best pages. See how other schools include infoboxes and limit the size of pictures (and then include more). Do see if you can as this could be brilliant. You must however be neutral. Tell us about alumni and why the school is important with references. Welcome Victuallers 16:52, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Overall a good article. The section on La Martiniere after 1857 can be made a little tighter. Same goes for the section on houses. That part reads more like a brochure than an encyclopedia article. And a little information about alumni and contributions to society can definitely help. devil 11:31, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Reassess
This is a very important school... maybe top importance Victuallers 08:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

This school needs reassessing ... now a B? Victuallers 11:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It must surely be a B by now. There is still much more which could be added. I'm going to expand the section on literature as I've found some more sources. My only concern at present is the lack of references for the teachers and alumni. A lot of these people really should have their own articles. It seems quite extraordinary, for instance, that there is no Wiki article for the Indian foreign minister. Dahliarose 12:23, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Non-notable teachers
I've removed this paragraph from the main text as these people don't appear to be notable enough for inclusion, but I am willing to be proved wrong!

The torch of learning has been carried on by a number of Old Boys who today are Principals of leading schools in India. Terence Phillips in Wynberg Allen School (Mussoorie); Cedric Innes in Boys High School (Allahabad), Roy Robinson (Bishop Cotton School, Shimla), Allan Baker in Barnes (Devlali) and Munday Martin in St. Thomas's (Calcutta) to name a few. Dahliarose 19:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Style and tone
Is "...this is perhaps the first time since the Great Mutiny of 1857 that the portals of Constantia has been mute witness to such violence..." really needed? Galf 12:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

have a go ....Victuallers 13:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)bb


 * You are quite right. The original article was all copied and pasted from an Indian website and had to be redone from scratch. I think this is one of the last remaining pieces from the old article. Please feel free to amend any other sections. We could do with some assistance from some local editors.Dahliarose 13:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Alumni
We've now accumulated rather a long list of alumni and I wonder if it might be best to split them onto a separate page entitled perhaps 'List of notable Lucknow Old Martinians'. Some of the newly added alumni are lacking sources. We really need to find viable sources or get Wiki articles written for these people to enable us to include them. If sources can't be found they will eventually have to be deleted. We could perhaps have a holding list of alumni on the talk page awaiting references. I'm sure the sources exist but they might not all be in the English language. Dahliarose 12:34, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree .... maybe we leave on the main page the provably notable (ie a solid and impressive ref) until we have too many of those too. Some of the recent additions may be embaressing as there are links but they do not imply notability (some say these people are unnotable). Maybe other people are adding their mates "as a favour". Its not nice as it can make them look vain. I think the pending list is a good idea. Language should be no barrier ... its our fault for not speaking the language ... but we will need someone to sign their veritability. I also suspect that with a local editor to help then the article is close to GA. Well done Victuallers 13:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Notable teachers
I've temporarily moved these teachers to the talk page. We need to find something to say about them to indicate why they are notable, or find an appropriate existing Wiki article. Otherwise it is just a list of names and is meaningless to the average reader. We also need references to prove that they taught at the school and to indicate their notability. (The names of the Principals are an exception as this is the sort of information people would expect to find in an encylopaedia.)

Boys' School
 * Hugh & Betty Dignum
 * Mrs. Simlai
 * Nelson Maclure
 * Alan Baker
 * Victor Rayner
 * Frank deSouza
 * Benny Fernandes
 * Mr. Agnihotri

Girls School
 * Mrs Whitby
 * Mrs Hollo
 * Mrs Saldanha
 * Mrs Madan
 * Mrs Maclure
 * Miss F.ThakurDas
 * Mrs M.Bibb
 * Mrs I.Cooke
 * Miss K.Bantleman
 * Miss Mary D'Souza

A good article candidate
I think this page has made it! When it started it was a very dull copy of other people's material. The page has been built up by Wikipedians, but we did not have any local and/or modern editors. We seem to have some now... more please. Can I encourage the new editors to get themselves an account so their contributions are signed. Predictably we will have some childish anonymous vandalism once the page is rediscovered and I wouldn't want our new editors locked out. Welcome again Victuallers 14:58, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Alumni - what I did
As we discussed the alumni list was getting long. It also included many people who were "just names". We had no ref that they attended the school or that they were important. So


 * I have moved all the male lucknow alumni to a new page with spaces to take other schools
 * I have deleted all red linked alumni - I know! You are allowed to have red linked alumni so I included the foreign secretary. Oh and I removed Cliff Richard off the main page as the evidence seems dubious. Am I right? I don't know ... if we have good evidence of notability then move them back. Victuallers 16:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh and I created a new article for the first Indian girl to attend the school as she was notable anyway ... thats the best solution for redlinks ....Victuallers 16:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

That's much better. Well done! I think we probably now need just a short introductory prose section in the main article which mentions the most famous alumni. I will see if I can do an article next week on the Indian Foreign Secretary. I can't believe he doesn't have one already.

Battle honours
La Martiniere Prayer McGill University is a university and institute of higher education and not a school. Our original claim is therefore still correct and La Martiniere is indeed the only school in the world to be awarded the battle honour. It is one of two educational institutions to receive such an honour. I'm not sure of the date when McGill received its battle honour but I suspect they might even have received their award before La Martiniere. La Martiniere didn't actually get the battle honour until 1932 so McGill might well hold the distinction of being the first educational institution to receive the award. I've amended the text accordingly. Dahliarose 13:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

You're right ... I was so intrigued to find another educational institution - "one" seemed more than was likely! that I maybe took back too mauch of the schools claim. Whilst I have your attention, Can I encourage more people to chat here. I am seeing some great additions but some odd deletions. Can we have more discussion here please Victuallers 13:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

School Prayer
I have created this box to the right. It is based on text from the Calcutta school. Not sure how to include it or when the prayer is said. Daily? Annually? Never? Victuallers 14:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Bottom template
Many schools have a template at the bottom which list similar schools. I have quickly created one on the subject of "Schools in Lucknow" ... but realised I didn't have the expertise to sort them into the correct categories for education in India. Anyone fancy having a go? Once 98% correct then it could be moved to each school. Victuallers 23:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Education in Lucknow

Maintaining encyclopaedic content
I think we need to ensure that the content of this article remains encyclopaedic in nature and that it is of interest to a general readership, especially if we try and go for a good article nomination. I've therefore removed the sections on school administration and the short paragraph about the school uniform. These apply to all schools in general and there was nothing which seemed to be particularly noteworthy or of interest to anyone outside the school. Dahliarose 14:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Changes and balance
There's been a welcome flurry of activity on the article in the last week, but as a result it's been difficult to keep track of all the changes. I've now discovered that some sections seem to have been deleted. Could people please leave a note about major changes on the talk page and give their reasons for making such changes. I've now re-instated the section on the 1997 murder. The event appears to have attracted major coverage in the Indian newspapers at the time and as such it is an important part of the school's history. The article has to have balance - it is not a sanitised advertisement for the school. If anyone has any strong views as to why the murder should not be included perhaps the issue could be discussed here. Dahliarose 10:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There are other aspects that have disappeared that had a "different point of view", I think we need to debate this as I suspect some censoring of the page ... possibly unintentionly. But for instanse William Hodson now has no comment about him. His article makes it fairly clear that he was not well regarded and was dishonest, untrustworthy and "Hodson's horse were prominent in the reign of terror unleashed on Oudh after the discovery of the massacres". Can we have a debate ... we have a good team .. but we need the same objective. Victuallers 11:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think Hodson ought to go back in. Could you possibly reinstate him as you are more familiar with this section than I am? If someone wishes to make an alternative view of Hodson then any such comments should be supported with references. I've also reinstated the Dalrymple view of the curriculum but I've put it in the history section as the curriculum has changed since he made the comments and it is not a reflection of the current status. Dahliarose 11:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Real Improvements
Hello Victuallers and Dahliarose,

Extremely grateful for your joint efforts to upgrade the article on La Martiniere Lucknow.I would request both of you to consider me as also a joint and passionate collaborator in the project.

Somme points for your kind consideration are as follows:

Is it really important to include all that William Dalrymple has written. I think it is more hype than fact. An average Martinian boy is an extremely aware individual. It is "one boy's" version vs fact. Is the 1997 murder really important to the article ? I find it a sore thumb in an otherwise balanced article. We need more photographs. The net is full of some really beautiful pictures of La Martiniere / Constantia and you may like to add a few more to enhance the visual appeal.We can even create a Picture Gallery. We can also consider adding a Google map of the La Martiniere estate. La Martiniere Lyons also need to be expanded soon to have a semblance of balance among all the three La Martiniere cities. That's it for now.

Thanks and Regards

Vive La Martiniere !

moon 11:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello Moonwiki. Thank you for your comments. We want to get this article to good article status and there are specific criteria which we have to meet. You might like to have a look at this page: Good articles. In particular, we have to ensure that we present all points of view about any given subject. See Neutral point of view. William Dalrymple seems to have written extensively about the school which is why his comments are important, whether or not we agree with them. There are presumably other sources of which we are presently unaware which potentially represent a different point of view. If you know of any such sources please feel free to quote from them. You can't disguise the fact that the murder happened and hit the front pages at the time. As someone who has no connection with the school this to me seems to be an important subject for inclusion in the article, as it is part of the school history, even if the school itself might not want to be reminded of the fact. Further pictures would be most welcome but we cannot lift pictures from the web as that would be in breach of copyright. We could really do with someone who lives locally who could go out and take a few more pictures (eg, a picture of the girls' school, the monument in the lake, Claude Martin's bust, etc). If we can get some more pictures it would be good to have a picture gallery as you suggest. A few maps might also be helpful. Dahliarose 12:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)