Talk:La forza del destino

The synopsis looks like it applies to the first version. It should be updated to the second version, the "standard", with an explanation of the differences. Herbivore (talk) 23:53, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

A suggestion in a section
I found this phrase Son giunta! ... Madre, pietosa Vergine – "I've got here! Oh, thank God!" to be not quite correct, you see: Italians and Spaniards were fervient roman catholics during the times that the Opera was created, so I got the feeling that saying "madre, pietosa vergine" to be "oh, thank god" is very misleading. Despite my lack of Italian language, I'm pretty sure that "madre, pietosa vergine" is about the Virgin Mary, which is very important for the catholics (I'm a spanish native speaker, and catholic too, perhaps this sounds an entitlement but I just want to point out a suggestion). The point is to put that phrase like "Mother, pious virgin!". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caspramio (talk • contribs) 21:37, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Instrumentation
Can we find an accurate list of the instrumentation and add it to here?

Geoff (talk) 01:07, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:04, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

saavedra
The Saavedra piece should have its own page. It is historically significant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.12.13.5 (talk) 16:28, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Fate motive
Shouldn't there be a mention of the famous "fate" motive? TomS TDotO (talk) 13:29, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Retranslated title
I retranslated the title as The Power of Fate. Translating it as "The Force of Destiny" seems a little too effete, somehow. Sort of like translating L'elisir d'amore as "The Elixir of Love" when it obviously just means "The Love Potion". Grommel (talk) 20:33, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * But both of those are the recognised English titles. Can you provide any sources that would outweigh current usage for your suggestions? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:34, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Seriously? Well, the German Wikipedia translates the title as Die Macht des Schicksals, which again would be most naturally translated as "The Power of Fate"; Italian dictionaries provide "power" as one translation for 'forza' and "fate" as one translation for 'destino'. My contention is that "The Power of Fate" is an idiomatic English way of expressing the original title; the customary translation thoughtlessly uses English cognates when they are not appropriate. Frankly, this just seems obvious to me. To be honest, I don't know whether Wikipedia policy requires a source even for translating a four-word title, but if it does we'll have to settle for "The Force of Destiny". By the way, another comment mentions the "fate" motive -- should that be called the "destiny" motive? :) Grommel (talk) 14:22, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Seriously. We normally don't make up these English titles; there are usually widely-used versions in place, although, as you observe, they may be problematic. E.g. Le nozze di Figaro is IMO better translated as The Wedding of Figaro, but I'm pretty much alone with that, so there's no chance of it being used. (Please don't correct my spelling; it's not the done thing.)-- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:56, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Did some homework ... the following sources translate La forza del destino as "The Power of Fate". Theodore Libbey, The NPR Listener's Encyclopedia of Classical Music (Workman, 2006), p. 237. / Charles Osborne, The Opera Lover's Companion (Yale U.P., 2004), p. 520. / Don Michael Randel, The Harvard Concise Dictionary of Music and Musicians (Belknap Press, 1999), p. 238. / Stanley Sadie, The Grove Book of Operas (Oxford U.P., 2006), p. 231. / Richard Taruskin, Music in the Nineteenth Century (Oxford U.P., 2009), p. 579. Grommel (talk) 19:44, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I did some too. One has to look at a particular writer's preference, although many scholars - such as Mary Jane Phillips-Matz (Verdi's 1993 biographer) and Julian Budden (The Operas of Verdi, 1984) don't bother to translate it at all (as far as I could find).
 * Writing in The New Grove Dictionary of Opera, Vol. Two, p. 261, musicologist Roger Parker uses both!! But then, in The New Grove Guide to Verdi and His Operas, p. 185, he uses "The Power of Fate".
 * Google translate, for what it's worth, shows the word "fuerza" in the Spanish title of the original play reading as "force".
 * David Kimbell in The New Penguin Opera Guide (2001), p. 1000 uses "The Force of Destiny"
 * Washington National Opera recently performed it as The Force of Destiny as did Australian Opera.
 * Matthew Gurewitsch in the New York Times (28 May 1999), with the headline "Having Invoked The Power of Fate, An Opera Feels It", makes this comment in the context of a Muti-conducted production: "With Forza -- a title more clearly and less lazily Englished as The Power of Fate than as the more familiar Force of Destiny .....
 * Finally, here on NPR's World of Opera (with my boldfacing) we get this:
 * "Naturally, there are also plenty of operas that dwell on fate, though few do it so dramatically as Verdi's La Forza del Destino -- The Force of Destiny....... After considering a number of subjects for a new opera, Verdi chose a Spanish play called La fuerza del sino -- The Power of Fate. It was adapted by librettist Francesco Maria Piave, who also worked with Verdi on several other operas, including Macbeth and Rigoletto"


 * What conclusions can we draw? That the original Spanish (which I don't know) translates as "Power of Fate"??  That the Italian better translates as "Force of Destiny"???  I dunno.... Viva-Verdi (talk) 20:47, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Readability
Hello Michael, first of all I would say that it is good to work together and exchange information because that leads to a better understanding of the subject. I wonder what you mean by "avoid centering table entries for readability." I think that by enlarging this wikitable to 100% do not compress information, which centralized, helps the reader to focus on what he is looking for. There are situations where this is not possible due to the use of icons and related material. I would like you to explain to me this difference in a simple way so that I can understand it better, please. Krenakarore TK 12:28, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that centered text in table cells almost always decreases readability – the eyes have to find the beginning of the text in every cell anew. There are long standing standards for role tables and recordings; these are documented and recommended at WikiProject Opera/Article styles and formats and they are universally followed. If you object to the recommended format, I suggest you raise the matter at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:48, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that M.B.(above) makes a perfectly valid point regarding the formatting, since we do have an agreed-upon consensus among the editors of WP:Opera. Viva-Verdi (talk) 21:32, 18 May 2014 (UTC)


 * @User:Viva-Verdi my dear, that is just a Wikipedia article, no big deal. I could copy it to my sandbox, modify it to my taste, which here is totally irrelevant, and keep it there for my own amusement. But that, you know, is no big deal :) Krenakarore  TK 00:19, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * @Michael, I'm sorry I didn't reply earlier but my daughter will be born in two days and things here are a bit hectic right now. Anyway, to raise the matter sounds more like an accusation. I have as premise never to engage myself in arguments with anyone. I discuss ideas, not people or events. Besides, the project you mentioned is run by the same people who watch us here today. Nonetheless, I thank you for showing me it's just your personal opinion. I didn't find any mentioning that text in wikitable cells must be left aligned. Yes, the eyes have to find the beginning of the text once we want people to focus their attention on what they're reading. You know, I was once taught to "write on the line" until I saw someone write in between them, creating a neat pattern which took me by surprise. Since then I began "reading in between the lines."


 * Standardization of text and tables leads to a better visualization and fast comprehension of the information displayed, giving thus balance and a sense of harmonious proportion. The more symmetric a thing is the better it is interpreted by the brain. That "voice type" column is too narrow in relation to the others and that unfortunately clutters the text. A larger table better distributes the information it contains. Have you ever opened a book whose information is not right aligned ? You see, Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia Michael but a psycological exercise. Moving content from one side to another, editing or deleting information here and there is pretty much like moving things inside ourselves. The secret is how you deal with yourself, not with the others. In other words, the more you know, the more you know that less you know. Don't you agree ? Krenakarore  TK 00:19, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Date of premiere
The article currently gives the date of the premiere as "22 November O.S. 10 November] 1862". The other major language Wikipedias only give 10 November, as does the page 1862 in music, and , Opera by, Naxos' The A to Z of Opera on my bookshelf. On the other hand, Handbuch der Oper by and our infobox give 22 November. Roger Parker in Grove gives "29 October/10 November". Clearly, something's not right. 29 October or 10 November or 22 November – what is it? Google gives 1, 2880, 1320 results for each. I suspect Grove is right and some people assumed that 10 November was an Old Style date and added 12 days which then gave 22 November, where in fact 10 November was New Style, corresponding to 29 October Old Style, 12 days earlier. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:05, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * On second thoughts, and considering Google search results, maybe Grove is wrong. That would leave 10 November O.S. (the calendar at that time), equivalent to 22 November in most other countries and in today's calendar. I suggest to follow the majority of sources and use that O.S. date as the date of the premiere. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 00:12, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

File:Alexandre Charles Lecocq - Giuseppe Verdi - La forza del destino.jpg scheduled for POTD
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