Talk:La raza cósmica

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(generic index title)

 * You're refering to the National Council of La Raza... I'm still trying to find their links. Sweetfreek 19:26, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * You may be thinking of MEChA or La Voz de Aztlán. National Council of La Raza's website here.
 * Xen0phile 13:39, 20 November 2005 (UTC)


 * NCLR is not a supremecist/separatist organization as the OP prickface suggested. Maybe you should challenge his empty-headed charge before feeding into his White racist tactics.


 * I certainly hope NCLR isn't discriminatory and separatist. Let's not say racist, Hispanics of all countries are one single race, that has been made clear thousands of times. But I am Puerto Rican and I'm a member of NCLR with a free membership I signed up for. I receive their e-mails every day. I hope they are not discriminatory and separatists against Hispanics from other countries.
 * AntonioMacarenaMartin


 * A cursory look at their website I linked here a month ago tells me they are not, in fact, racist. Like I said, others here may be confused with Voz de Aztlan. Xen0phile 14:11, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


 * "Voz de Aztlan"? I find it funny that such an obscure radicalist group can garner so much attention, especially from White Separatists who are currently trying to turn the tables on the whole "race debate" by stating that non-white peoples are more racist than whites.

Speaking as a sixth generation Mexican American, I find it difficult to see eye to eye with the movemen of "La Raza". I have read the site, and more importantly I am aware that many people will defend Chicano, Mexican, and other like movements, explaining that they are in actuality a movement to spred the culture of Mexico. While on the surface this seems an innocent enough action it, in fact many people take these movements to an all new extremist level of thinking. Examples include Aztlan and MEChA. Both focus on ideas of extreme seperatism. Aztlan wishes to reclaim the southern part of the United States as part of Mexico, claiming it is rightfully thiers. I am not sorry in saying these people are radicals. Organizations that stress one culture and one idea often become so. While I see culture and identity as imortant, it is more important to realize nationality. These people are living in America. Not Mexico. Mexican Americans (Hispanics) are often criticited among the American population. It is for reasons like these. The need to seperate rather than acclamate to the situation. This isnt Mexico. It never will be, and by denying a language and an American culture Americans will only continue to hurt themselves. While I agree with the idea of MEChA, that more Hispanics need to be educated, the answer isnt a free ride. Mexicans need to earn what they recieve. Effort, hard work, perceverence are all things in this country that will get you far. While many people are racist, Mexicans are encourageing racism by asking for eveything to be handed to them. Work for it, when you achieve it, it will be all the more glorious.

DISCLAIMER: Before people immediately criticize me as becoming overly Americanized, i would like to point out 2 things. First, I am prod to be American, no insult about being american will effect me. And second, I am not rich, or privledged. My parents were poor, I grew up poor, but i worked hard, went to a good college, and have a well paying job, becasue i worked hard for those things. Perhaps i worked harder than a white person would have had to, but in the end no one can take my accomplishments from me, or diminish them in any way.

Any reason why the top commentator's afraid to reveal themselves?
Is anyone interested in creating an article about the virulently racist ethnic separatist/supremacist "National Council of La Raza" ("The Race")? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.155 (talk • contribs)


 * Nobody's interested in arguing with a liar who makes baseless claims. Sounds like you're the one with racist/generalizing attitudes.--Bourbon King 21:30, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

^ Actually its a Racist organization in line with Mecha, that promotes the same policy of overthrowing US control of the border states of California, New Mexico, Texas, and Arizona; and returning them to Mexico. La Raza means The Race more specifically Mexican and only Mexican-- contrary to what these others say. Mexico beats or shoots people who try to cross its southern border and is highly racist against those Latinos other than Mexicans thus debunking the terms encompassment of Latinos-- but of course they dont want you to know that, cause then La Raza come off as the racist anti-American organizition that it really is. -Andrew Hernandez(FDD19)


 * In my opinion, and this is an opinion of course, not a fact or law, but in my humble opinion, illegal immigrants, whether they be Mexican, Chinese, Russian, Kenyan or whatever, should at least have basic rights, such as being able to get medical care without being arrested. In my state, it's the law that no illegal immigrant be arrested in a hospital, this way, they won't be afraid to seek medical attention. I don't know the extent of the rights the National Council wants, but certain rights should be granted to every living human being.
 * Antonio Boy and Girl Toy Martin''


 * Thanks for your honest opinion, but I think the above anonymous commentators don't deserve an answer to a baseless question that is filled with racist conjecture. I worked with La Raza in L.A. for a few fundraisers and they're no more different than any other cultural activity group.--Bourbon King 21:29, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

La Raza
La Raza, simply means "The people", or our people; Hispanics. Of course, hispanic is not one race, but many people that share the same culture. This culture is based on the culture of the Castillians fron Spain; This culture from Catile being Very catholic, dry and with no-nonsence. The castilians gave or forced their culture on the ame-indians of the american continent, and their african slaves. With time both amerindians and afroamericans took this culture and maded it theirs; but they also shaped it to their needs. After opteining independence, the new nations of the americas shaped this culture some more. Since then this culture has been shaped some more by the europeans, jews, asians and middle easterns that have migrated in diferent numbers to different parts of latin america.This culture has been taken too by some Filipinos, Ladinos(jews expelled from spain in the xvi century),and africans fro lod Spanish colonies. Also, now days, there are many Hispanics marrying people from all over the world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.241.116.220 (talk • contribs)

"Raza" and "Race" have several very different connotations. The word raza literally means "lineage," which is a rather different notion than more modern concepts of "race." In the colonial period, the phrase "de raza" was used to assert a Spanish lineage or "calidad" in the complex caste system. Basically it implied that, although one may be mixed, their Spanish heritage is still significant. Later, after independence, the caste system broke down to a great degreee, and in Mexico in particular, new ideas about racial difference entered the picture with the United States invasion. "Raza" then connoted a distinction with "Anglo-Saxons" as well as Indians and blacks. Basically, as it evolved in Mexico, "la raza" is a term that implies that its bearer is neither fully white (either "Anglo" or "Spaniard"), yet not fully black or Indian either, which is at odds with most European or North American ideas about the meaning of race, which imply some degree of purity or exclusion. It is not at all informed by "modern" or "scientific" definitions of race, that mainly emerged in 19th century Europe.

Of course, when mestizo people confront the United States' model of race relations, a certain degree of conflict is inevitable. For decades, American society was organized along the principle that its people were either white or black, with Asians, Indians, and "others" along the absolute margins. Many Mexicans in the southwest traditionally sought acceptance as "whites" and "Spanish-Americans," and groups such as LULAC actively promoted this view. However, the emergence of Chicano and Puerto Rican nationalism challenged this accomodationalist approach, and "raza" entered the American political discourse as a more nationalist, separatist term. However, it should be underlined that "la raza" means altogether different things for different "Hispanic" groups. Some Chicanos use it in a very exclusive fashion, others use it with a more inclusive framework in mind. Raza means something altogether different in Mexico than in most of the rest of Latin America due to contact along the border. And finally, in Spain, "raza" generally bears strong francoist connotations; a conservative Spaniard's vision of "la raza" would probably exclude most Chicanos on racial, cultural, and social grounds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.28.188.162 (talk • contribs)


 * The modern term "la raza" does in fact translate literally as "the race", not "the people". "The people" was invoked defensively against the charge that it meant "the race", but that is in fact what it means.  However, it was simply a shortened form of "la raza cosmica" which expresses something exactly opposite to the usual usage of "race" which implies racial purity.  Another problem was/is that many Mexican Americans who use/used the term were completely ignorant of the "la raza cosmica" meaning, thinking it referred to the Mexican people as an ethnic group, and not to the the racial mixture which characterizes the vast majority of Latin Americans.  The same ignorance has led many non-Mexican Americans to believe the same thing.  There are also some who believe it refers only to mestizos, but this is erroneous.  Vasconcelos included the significant African ancestry as well which is even present in Mexico, albeit to a smaller degree than in the Caribbean region and Brazil. Tmangray 17:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Who La Raza Really Is

La Raza is a rabidly active anti-US group deeply involved in the "Take Back California" movement. I find it interesting here to see them represented as a bland non-partisan social organization. If you haven't been to the demonstrations and understood the language of the speakers you might be sucked-in by claims of benevolence. If you had never been punched when you asked questions about their perceived rights to the Southwest United States, then you might believe the prepared misinformation regurgitated to the English speaking press. When has an invading force ever claimed to be anything other than a benign misunderstood friend of the country...only interested in defending the rights of the downtrodden.

Legal One

Still Cannot Find
 * I still cannot find information on any organization, past or present, that is called La Raza. I've never seen anyone claiming to represent them on TV or at immigration reform rallies.  I only hear about them in passing from white supremacists and conspiracy theorists so I'm thinking there's a good possibility that "la raza" does not even exist and is just a boogeyman made up by people who practice scare tactics. Mosquito-001 19:44, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Where to Find
 * Yo, Mosquito-001. Check out this page, at the top.  In the current US debate on imigration policy, "La Raza" is the "National Council of La Raza", shortened for convenience.
 * --Tomday 12:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * No the shortened term for the "National Council of La Raza" is NCLR. "La Raza" seems to be a made up organization that seems to have a part in every conspiracy theory ever invented by nativists or white surpremacists.  La Raza is not mentioned in any serious US debate on immigration and to this day I have yet to see anyone representing them at any immigration reform rally.  Lou Dobbs sometimes claims various motives to this organization but....he's Lou Dobbs(nuff said about that). Mosquito-001 15:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

A mexican slang

In my expirence the La Raza term is used only by mexicans and commentator to refer to a latinamerican in any context, and is actually something normal people never mention or hear in it in their normal lives.

Including Arabs and Spanish people ???
Since I'm a good guy (TM) I'm opening this to discussion prior to removal. "All the people of the Iberian Peninsula, including Arabs and Spaniards" is nonsensical to the extreme by itself, let alone concerning this "La Raza" thing. I'm not going to say much more since I find it so ridiculous that I'm expecting someone else to explain it to me. As an extra note, refering Iberia in this context is highly misleading since it's a specifically spanish word that reflects a spanish legacy. Fred --195.245.185.32 15:39, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Dear Fred, I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but perhaps you don't realize that the Iberian control was under the control of Muslims for about 700 years (see Convivencia). During that time, the culture and population was infused with Arabic and Moorish blood and customs. So Vasconcelos includes this racial mixing that occurred in Spain prior to the conquest of the Americas as part of the concoction that created "La Raza Cósmica". The essay is available in English translation, and I recommend that you read it (it is fairly brief) for a better understanding.--Rockero 23:11, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Dear Rockero, I'm quite knowledgable on the historical and genetical situation in Iberia, and let me just say that the theory of vast moorish influence has been disproved by both genetic and an impartial historical analysis. I can't remember a single moorish custom that made it's way into the Peninsula, and the "Moorish blood" is more or less a fabrication without a basis in reality, which is actually more gruesome sometimes than one would like to admit. I might not be fluent in Vansconcelos' theories though, so I could have misunderstood his particular view that is being reflected in the article with an endorsement or historical reality. I didn't especially see the need for you to classify the change as vandalism though, since it was both mentioned in this talk page and in the change description. As for the historical reality, a quick read of Spanish people mentions a possbile minor genetic contribution in Andalusia, but even this is nowadays not entirely correct: the similarities between parts of Iberia and some North African communities are actually not directly related to the Muslim invasion but to Upper Paleolhitic common origin of the non-Arab europid populations. Since now I see that the article is describing a specific literary view by a specific authot all this is more or less moot. I would perhaps suggest to restrucure the paragraphs slightly to indicate that the topic at hand is Vasconcelos' concept and not an historical reality; I don't know a single spaniard that would think of considering Arabs as an Iberian "racial identity", which makes this concept particular to SOuth America in construction and ideals. Regards, Fred --89.26.164.161 03:26, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, and a needed clarification: the above is not meant to imply that Arabs ar good or bad, or that "La Raza" is good or bad. Furthermore, one important aspect of my edit was lost: the difference in meaning for the term according with the country. The Spanish Wikipedia article actually mentions this, since in Mexico the definition that you use - the Vasconcelos' one - is more widely known, whereas in other Spanish-speaking american countries the term doesn't have the some meaning and more or less refers to a cultural connection to the Spanish colonial past... in this it could even be argued that the term is the opposite of "indigenous", especially given the specific meaning of the term is viewed in the "limpieza de sangre" colonial angle. Regards, Fred --89.26.147.81 14:40, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Modifications
The readers of this article should be informed, first and foremost, of Vasconselos' work and afterwords about how the term is used by many. I don't mean any disrespect to others in the modifications I have made.Rodrgz 13:31, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I am evaluating this Wikipedia article for my class, Latino History. The clear issue is the lack of inline references, which make it difficult to see exactly where information comes from. Certain places are marked with "citation needed." The only source listed is the book "La raza cósmica" itself. While this is of course an important source, I believe that all the information should not come from a single source. There should be a balance of primary and secondary sources. Secondary sources could include scholarly evaluations of the importance and significance of this text in intellectual movements or popular discourse. I think that this book should be put more into context, since right now it seems to stand alone. The article does link to the page "Race of the Future," but some of the information from that page could be added to this page too to add important context about the broader historical scholarly trends and movements. I also think that the tone and writing style of this article could be improved. Right now, it is difficult to read and feels choppy and stilted, like it has been somewhat directly paraphrased without being really reworded and unified into a cohesive paragraph. I am also a bit concerned that the conversation on the Talk page is so heated, since I feel that that may have influenced the article and made it the way it is. Katherine Fleming (talk) 15:25, 2 March 2017 (UTC)Katherine

Requested move 9 June 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved as requested. Dekimasu よ! 21:40, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

La Raza Cósmica → La raza cósmica – Per MOS:TITLES: use Spanish orthography for Spanish-language work titles. The vast majority of Spanish-language sources, and academic English-language ones, capitalize neither the work nor the concept. Spanish doesn't even capitalize proper-adjectival constructions (e.g. español, 'Spanish'.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:37, 9 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. —  AjaxSmack  17:31, 9 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Octavio Paz
We need to integrate some material about Octavio Paz and El laberinto de la soledad ('The Labyrinth of Solitude') which developed la Raza ideas further, beyond Vasconcellos. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:04, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Terminology
The following material was removed from the article, for having a citation needed on it for too long. However, it's probably all correct. Someone with some appropriate works (or nearby university library) can probably source and restore this:

"The term has come, often in its shortened version la Raza, to refer to the mixed-race people of Latin America, i.e., primarily mestizos, mulattos, and zambos, or all three combined. Vasconcelos also used the expression la raza de bronce ('the bronze race'), in this same sense."

— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:13, 19 February 2019 (UTC)