Talk:Laconophilia

Comments
This is a very unknown concept. But it is very important to understanding not only these Greeks put also to put Sparta in context. Everyone champions Athens but it is Sparta that had the praise of its contemporaries. This knowledge is VERY important and overlooked and not seen by many.WHEELER 18:02, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The extent of the cult of Sparta is sometimes understated. But you overstate it. It was limited first to a minority faction at Athens; then to certain philosophers who wrote of Lacedaemon as Utopia. In Greece, it was a cult of Sparta only; one of its credoes was the usually bad state of Spartan institutions before Lycurgus. No one extended it to the commercial cities of Corinth or Syracuse or Rhodes - all Dorian. The rustic cities of Crete are only praised as inspirations for Lycurgus, and the nature of that inspiration differs from author to author. Also:


 * Mueller's Dorians is very severely dated. He wrote when archaeology did not exist, and before comparative linguistics or source criticism had been applied to the question - and he filled up the gaps with sheer fantasy.


 * "philodorian" is an invented word. Try 'Laconophile',


 * Delphi is not Doric, as the list of Amphictyons should make clear.


 * Lycurgus of Athens is profoundly obscure - and presumably of a Laconizing family; hence the name.


 * The whole Laconizing movement is an Athenian political faction - to which Cimon did not belong. He valued Lacedaemon as an ally.

Septentrionalis 20:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * You have named no Roman of the Empire, and the visit of the Decemvirs is a myth.

helots
Why capitalize? It is a common noun, as perioikoi "by-dwellers" also is. Septentrionalis 17:39, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

The "rare" usage of Laconism.
In the present article (and in some related pages), "laconism" is presented as a synonyme for "laconophilia" (as the latter concept is described in this article).

I have personally never before heard or seen laconism used in this sense; but I'm not a native English speaker, and therefore might have missed it. On the other hand, I indeed have now and then heard and read laconism in the meaning defined in laconic phrase. I checked the on-line OED, which gives both senses; but marks the first sense (= laconophilia) as "rare".

If anyone (especially a native Engish speaker) has good reason to think that the sense laconophilia really is the dominating sense of laconism to-day (in general usage and/or in scolarly circles), all is well and good. Otherwise, I think I'll change this and the other articles to make them reflect the relative weights as given by the OED. JoergenB (talk) 19:49, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I was the one who added these links, because the usual term for "love of Sparta" used within the field of Classics is laconism. It would be fine if Laconism referred first to laconic phrase and then to laconophilia, but I think we shouldn't remove the link to laconophilia, as this would make it harder on some of our readers to find the article (I had considerable trouble finding it the first time). Or maybe you think otherwise? Bahnheckl (talk) 08:41, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I absolutely agree that both senses should be possible and easy to find.
 * What you did was also to redirect Laconism to Laconize (instead of the previous redirect directly to Laconic phrase). Now laconize is also a word I didn't know, and cannot ebvaluate.  OED associates it with only one verbal noun laconizing, not directly with laconism.  Is it clear that laconism and laconize are synonymous in usage, and should be collected in the same dab?  If so, that dab page should mention both words in its first sentence.  Else, we could have separate dabs, with Also see links to each others. JoergenB (talk) 00:44, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The verb to laconize is used for laconophilia in Classical research as well. It is borrowed from Classical Greek (see the DAB-page). I am unsure whether to laconize is used for "laconic phrase" too, however... (On a sidenote: I think Laconism should be the DAB, not the redirect, seeing as it is the more prevalent form.) Bahnheckl (talk) 19:06, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * OK; let's try to sum up.
 * If I got what you said correctly, laconism is used in two senses, laconic phrase and laconophilia, while laconize only is associated with laconophilia. If this is so, then laconize should not be a dab at all, but be redirected to laconophilia; but laconism should be a dab.
 * Do you agree? JoergenB (talk) 15:06, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Correct! Bahnheckl (talk) 21:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Factum est (if you can pardon an ignorant for using this barbaric language:-)! Please check my edits of Laconism, Laconize, and Laconophilia, to see whether I've misunderstood something, or whether you else might want to make some improvement! Best regards, JoergenB (talk) 16:30, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Good! Changed some minor things... check it out! Bahnheckl (talk) 18:46, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
 * All fine with me! JoergenB (talk) 14:59, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

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Spartan mirage
From Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome. Useful sources on the Spartan mirage, which is not really here well-covered: The topic should be well-covered in basically any Introduction of Ancient Greece course. See also textbooks. Eg Pomeroy et al Ancient Greece (4th edn 2017). Ifly6 (talk) 04:44, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * François Ollier Le mirage spartiate (1933) (seminal)
 * Rawson Spartan tradition in European thought (1969)
 * Anton Powell and Stephen Hodkinson (eds) Sparta beyond the mirage (2002) (and contributors)