Talk:Lady Katherine Grey

Untitled
I believe she was not universally always known as Lady, and I believe she is recognizable without it. Therefore "Lady" shuld not be included in the article title (as the requirement for such inclusion is: person if universally recognised with it and their name is unrecognisable without it). It seems to me that recently, there has been sort of campaign by some users to put titulary into headings, without any solid support from naming conventions, and this here apparently is a part of such campaign. 217.140.193.123 02:34, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Dear Arrigo (and please remember to sign your name on all comments) I moved the page in accordance with naming conventions, which were discussed at length and agreed before you arrived on this project. You will note that the pages for her sisters, Lady Jane Grey and Lady Mary Grey, are similarly named, and the previous name of the article was inconsistent. Deb 21:57, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, I signed using four tildes. Your further demands (if exist) for signature are unfounded, and only make you appear worse.

I have read the agreed naming conventions, which clearly state that "lady" is included "if person is universally recognised with it and their name is unrecognisable without it". It is not very far to think that you Deb actually do not understand very much of the convention. And we others do not need to follow your ideas nor your "own" conventions, whatever such are.

It might be that Jane Grey and Mary Grey are in wrong location. Certainly, their locations are no argument here - sisters are not always known similarly.

Your tone in the comment reminds me of the thought of "the troll who got there first". 217.140.193.123 23:28, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Name in published primaries
Thomas Randolph's letter 23 September 1560 refers 'the Lady Catherine, daughter to the late Duchess of Suffolk (CSP Scot., i, 483), CSPF Elizabeth (1559-60), 3, has 'L. K' ! Irrelevant to this discussion, Lady Catherine or Lady Katherine / +/- Grey, all that matters is that the person is uniquely designated in their article title, as we can all set links in other articles as we prefer. Unoquha (talk) 19:40, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Return
I think the earlier renaming was without any voting. Consistency is no reason if those other articles are in wrong places, and they may. We do not need to be "consistently wrong". Arrigo 12:55, 22 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I have reverted this change. Deb 16:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Background of the case: the naming convention 6 for other non-royal names states "Courtesy titles (also referred to as an honorific prefix)² such as Lord or Lady differ from full titles because unlike full titles they are included as part of the personal name, often from birth. As such, they should be included in the article title if a person is universally recognised with it and their name is unrecognisable without it. For example, the late nineteenth century British politician Lord Frederick Cavendish was always known by that form of name, never simply Frederick Cavendish. Using the latter form would produce a name that would be unrecognisable to anyone searching for a page on Cavendish. Similarly, Lady Gregory, the Irish playwright, is more recognisable to readers than Augusta Gregory."


 * You seem to feel you are some kind of arbiter here. You are not, and no one owes you an explanation.  If you want facts, go and look at google.  In the meantime, please remember to sign your posts. Deb 11:40, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Related Text
Not sure if it merits any link on this article but I just finished transcribing a manuscript that aparently belonged to Lady Catherine Grey (named in the document as "Countess Katherine Seymour Hertford").

The manuscript is listed as University of Pennsylvania Ms. Codex 823. --Doc 16:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It's very interesting. I agree, it's difficult to know whether a link is merited - I would say it depends whether how many other MSS are in existence that are known to belong to her.  Presumably none? Deb 17:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup?
I've removed the cleanup tag that was placed, pending someone explaining what kind of cleanup they believe is required. Deb 16:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You're absolutely right, I should have been more specific. I have added a more specific tag, believing that this article needs sections.Lilac Soul 17:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Lady Jane Grey
Jane was the sister of Catherine Grey and is famous for being the nine days queen, but her title as monarch is disputed, she was never crowned. I don't think this article should refer to her as Jane I of England, but Lady Jane Grey. Moerover, in the article about Jane Grey, she is refered to, in the title, as Lady Jane Grey. Little.miss.sunshine (talk) 09:30, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Image
The new image is much better than the previous one.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:56, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Most beautiful?
Judging by the image, I would say "least ugly" was nearer the mark :-) Deb (talk) 20:38, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Which image? The one of her holding her son shows her to have been rather doll-like in appearance.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:18, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * That's true. I was only looking at the miniature. Deb (talk) 11:43, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Frances Grey
Why is Catherine's mother referred to as Lady Frances Brandon? In her mother's article, she is referred to as Frances Grey, Duchess of Suffolk. To refer to her by her maiden name is confusing, inconsistent with her own article, and conflicts with methods of title usage elsewhere in Wikipedia. PandaPounce (talk) 01:23, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I've edited the sentence to say "by his marriage to Lady Frances Brandon", which is the name she's best known by and which I hope covers your point. Of course, important 16th century women are often known by their maiden names - Lady Jane Grey and Lady Catherine Grey are cases in point. Moonraker (talk) 02:46, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Not Listing Spouses
What is the problem with listing spouses? After adding Anne Parr, wife of William Herbert, 1st Earl of Pembroke, this happens -- (Undid revision 476413108 by Lady Meg (talk); we don't list any other spouses either; it's not done in the sources); Why? What does "it's not done in the sources" mean?? -- Lady Meg (talk) 23:35, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Succession box
Hi! I removed the box, sorry for forgetting to sign in. Being unable to sign for months in has had its effect. Anyway, I removed it because it was wrong: Lady Catherine Grey was never "Heir to the English and Irish Thrones". The heir to the throne is the person seated on the throne. The first-in-line is either heir apparent or heir presumptive but not "the heir". Furthermore, it can be said that Lady Catherine Grey was "preceded" by her sister but it can also be said that she was preceded by Lady Mary Tudor. Likewise, it can be said that she was succeeded by Lady Elizabeth Tudor, Lady Mary Grey or Viscount Beauchamp. Even if all this were not true, I still find "heir presumptive/apparent" succession boxes quite pointless, trivial and unsightly. What purpose do they serve? They soon multiply and before you know it, you see succession boxes such as "heir to the throne of Flanders", "spouse of the heir to the English throne", etc. What do you think, Jeanne? Surtsicna (talk) 23:05, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Support removing these boxes. (Lady Catherine Grey as heir apparent would have been "preceded" by her sister, as there was a document, the letters patent of 21 June 1553, which named both, in this order). Buchraeumer (talk) 23:38, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Whatever the merits of who was heir at this point, Surtsicna is using "heir" in a different sense to that now recognised. I think we've been over this before. PatGallacher (talk) 23:53, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Succession boxes do provide a reader with rapid information regarding his or her title as well as successor, etc. I for one find them helpful.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:20, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree, but I also agree that, where used for heirs, they should be restricted to "official" heirs. Deb (talk) 18:50, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Burial
Surely Catherine Grey is buried at Salisbury Cathedral, along with her husband. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.52.86.208 (talk) 10:01, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * She is now. I'll fix that. Deb (talk) 13:05, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Portraiture
This article appears not to have been monitored for some years now, but I am nonetheless going to make a suggestion that someone consider adding a section on portraiture. The iconography of Katherine Grey is itself an interesting topic. It begins with the miniature of circa 1562 now in the collection of the Dukes of Rutland at Belvoir Castle, and includes several full-sized paintings later adapted from the miniature. The variations in the content of those full sized paintings and the meaning of those variations have been analyzed in an academic article by Martin Spies: "The Portrait of Lady Katherine Grey and her Son: Iconographic Medievalism as a Legitimation Strategy" in Early Modern Medievalisms: The Interplay Between Scholarly Reflection and Artistic Production, edited by Alicia Montoya et al (Brill, 2010). There has also been a suggestion that certain portraits sometimes identified as depictions of either Elizabeth when a Princess or Lady Jane Grey may in fact depict Katherine Grey Seymour circa 1560-65. See J. Stephan Edwards, A Queen of a New Invention: Portraits of Lady Jane Grey Dudley, England's Nine Days Queen (Old John Publishing, 2015).2605:E000:FFC0:3B:1197:2EDC:F482:BF3C (talk) 03:24, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Spelling of name
This article spells the subjects forename with a C: "Catherine." I am not entirely sure why this is the case. It seems to be the result of a pervasive modern convention to respell pre-modern names using modern spelling preferences. The problem is most effectively illustrated through the sixth wife of Henry VIII, whose name is likewise spelled today as either Katherine or Catherine Parr. In fact, Parr herself consistently spelled her own name Kateryn. But modern writers seem to ignore the preferences of the individual and instead to impose their own modern sensibility in a most disrespectful manner. Virtually all contemporary sources spelled Grey's name with a K, not a C. This includes all official documents generated by the Tudor government (see UK National Archives, search keyword "Katherine Grey" for period 1500-1599). As someone whose own name has an unconventional spelling, I feel the need to speak up for Lady Katherine Grey Seymour. Her name should correctly be spelled with a K (Katherine), regardless of the spelling preferences of modern writers and authors.2605:E000:FFC0:3B:1197:2EDC:F482:BF3C (talk) 03:37, 18 June 2016 (UTC)