Talk:Lady Saigō

Sexism?
Isn't the first phrase somewhat sexist? She is defined as someone's wife. Is Tokugawa Ieyasu defined as her husband in his article too? Pikolas (talk) 14:28, 4 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I don't know how this passed my notice. In answer to your question, I would say no, there is nothing sexist about the description; it is about notability. Lady Saigo was notable for being the first consort of Ieyasu; and second, she was notable as the mother of the second shogun. She is remembered for these two identities far more than for anything else she did in life. Before her death, she would have most likely identified by those two aspects of her persona. In contrast, the main notability of Tokugawa Ieyasu was as "unifier of Japan", "one of the greatest daimyo", and other such superlatives. One would almost never identify him as "husband of Lady Saigo", because for one thing, he had one prior wife and at least 18 other concubines. His notability was not as a husband or master of a harem. For precedent, if you look at other articles on figures from the same period, those who serve higher-ranked lords are usually identified by that relationship. See Akiyama Nobutomo, Sakuma Nobumori, and Araki Murashige; these state in the first sentence or two that they were retainers or servants of one lord or another. Many of them are defined as someone's son. Tokuhime is defined as a daughter and a wife. Notability is not always self-generated, but often defined in terms of relationships. Boneyard90 (talk) 20:38, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I suppose that makes sense. Perhaps the perceived sexism is a result of historical views of women. Still, that was a bit strange to read at first. Thanks for the clarification. Pikolas (talk) 01:15, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
 * No problem! Boneyard90 (talk) 13:59, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

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Shaved eyebrows
The first footnote brings up shaved eyebrows. My understanding was that shaved eyebrows indicated marriage, not coming-of-age, which a quick GBooks search seems to confirm. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:46, 29 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Not all sources concur apparently. From the link you supplied, scroll down to Daily Life in Japan: At The Time of the Samurai, 1185-1603. Boneyard90 (talk) 14:49, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * If sources conflict, then we can't just pick the most convenient—either the conflict must be resolved, or the statement should be removed. I bring this up because I regularly come across (Japanese-language) sources that state such-and-such a figure in an ukiyo-e print is married (or recently widowed) based on the shaved eyebrows—for example, Hari-shigoto, Kasen Koi no Bu, Kōmei Bijin Rokkasen, Fujin Sōgaku Jittai and Fujo Ninsō Juppin.  As it stands, Wikipedia contradicts itself. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:20, 2 July 2017 (UTC)