Talk:Lady Triệu

Removed content
I removed these sentences because of lacking of source (and, in my opinion, it come from a fringe source of some so-called scholars in Vietnam).--Amore Mio (talk) 14:19, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

The following is the popular Vietnamese account.

Early years
Triệu Thị Trinh was born in Son Trung Village in the Trieu Son District of the Thanh Hoa Province (situated in today's northern Vietnam) on the 2 October AD 225. At this time, the area was under the control of the Eastern Wu Kingdom, one of China's Three Kingdoms. She was orphaned at a young age and lived with her brother Triệu Quốc Đạt (趙 國達) and his wife until she was twenty years old. It was said that she was treated like a slave in their home.

Rebellion
When she was twenty, she could no longer stand by and watch Wu dominate her homeland. She fled into the jungle and set up her own military camp where she went on to amass an army of at least a thousand men and women soldiers. When her brother tried to persuade her from rebelling, she told him:

''“I will not resign myself to the lot of women who bow their heads and become concubines. I wish to surf the rough waves, ride the strong winds, kill the whales of the East Sea, fight the Wu to gain independence. I have no desire to take abuse.”''

Triệu Thị Trinh managed to successfully liberate an area of Vietnam which she claimed as her territory and from there set up her own administration. By the time Thị Trinh was 23 she had defeated Wu advances on thirty separate occasions. She managed to defend her territory for several months and it was said that she rode into battle on the back of an elephant, clad in golden armour carrying a sword in each hand.

Defeat
However in AD 248, Wu managed to defeat Thị Trinh's forces and recaptured the territory which she had previously liberated from them. To protect her honour and to elude death at the hands of the Chinese, she committed suicide by drowning herself in a nearby river. There is another version of her suicide, saying that she was trampled to death by elephants.

Another version claims that Triệu Thị Trinh was a nine-foot tall giantess who rode into battle upon a massive elephant with her pendulous breasts slung over her shoulders and the Chinese at the times exclaimed: “It would be easier to fight a tiger, than to fight the Lady Queen.”. It was said that she could not stand even the tiniest bit of dirt so a Chinese general made his troops kick up lots of dust while they fought naked making her flee in disgust so her small army lost upon which she committed suicide.

Removal of diacritics

 * 01:26, 13 January 2008‎ Luk moved Talk:Trieu Thi Trinh to Talk:Triệu Thị Trinh: correct spelling
 * 13:42, 20 July 2011‎ move of Talk:Triệu Thị Trinh to Talk:Trieu Thi Trinh via G6 uncontroversial move request template

Requested move: Trieu Thi Trinh → Lady Trieu

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move to new title Mike Cline (talk) 19:52, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Trieu Thi Trinh → Lady Trieu – Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC) The current title misleads the reader into thinking that "Triệu Thị Trinh" is the formal name of Vietnam's warrior queen, or perhaps her Vietnamese name. But the primary sources give her as Triệu Ẩu. In modern Vietnamese, she is usually referred to as Bà Triệu. Every city in Vietnam has a street of this name. Both Triệu Ẩu and Bà Triệu translate as "Lady Trieu". "Triệu Thị Trinh" would seem to be a modern invention, possibly a hoax by 20th century historian Tran Trong Kim. A qualified Google Books search yields 83 post-1980 English-language hits for "Trieu Thi Trinh", 70 for "Lady Trieu", and 87 for "Trieu Au". Of the standard English-language treatments, Nguyễn Khắc Viện's Vietnam, a long history (1999) and Taylor's Birth of Vietnam (1991) both give "Lady Trieu", while Chapuis' A history of Vietnam (1995) gives "Trieu Au." Kauffner (talk) 04:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Oppose Lady Trieu is a honorific title (like "Sir", "Madam" .etc.) and should not be used as article's title. In addition, Trieu Au is the name given by the Chinese and can't not be used because it has negative meaning of "the old (bad) Triệu". And I dismissed your doubt that "Triêu Trinh Nương" was a hoax of Trần Trọng Kim because he was a respected historian, and he stuck on classical history books such as "Đại Việt Sử Ký Toàn Thư or Cương Mục to write the book "Viet Nam Su Luoc" (in which the name "Trieu Thi Trinh" appeared).--AM (talk) 04:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The Đại Việt Annals and Cương Mục are both on the Web, so you can verify for yourself that the primary sources call her "Triệu Ẩu". There is no basis to say what her given name might have been. In modern Vietnamese, there are four bios that use "Bà Triệu" in the title. Her Vietnamese Wikipedia article is entitled Bà Triệu. Triệu Ẩu, Bà Triệu, and Lady Trieu are direct equivalents, just different languages. Kauffner (talk) 01:33, 2 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested Move to remove a problematic given name

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved. Unopposed for over two weeks. Jenks24 (talk) 09:51, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Trieu Thi Trinh → Lady Trieu – The current title attributes a given name to the subject that is problematic historically, and is not the usage of most sources. In modern Vietnamese, she is Bà Triệu. As every Vietnamese city has a street of this name, there is no question that this is her common name. Translating this as "Lady Trieu" conforms to a widespread pattern: Hai Bà Trưng becomes Trung sisters, Thành phố Hồ Chí Minh becomes Ho Chi Minh City, etc. The primary source records were once difficult to access, but they are now online here and here. So it is easily verified that the court historians refer to the subject as Triệu Ẩu, which also translates as "Lady Trieu",, and that they do not provide a given name. Nguyễn Khắc Viện's Vietnam, a Long History (1999) and Keith Taylor's Birth of Vietnam (1991) both give "Lady Trieu", while Oscar Chapuis' A History of Vietnam (1995) gives "Trieu Au." I get 49 (28 deghosted) post-1990 Google Book hits for "Lady Trieu", 261 (165 deghosted) for "Trieu Au", and 27 (20 deghosted) for "Trieu Thi Trinh." If we consider "Lady Trieu" and "Trieu Au" to be variations, one can say that a substantial majority of authors refer to her by surname only. In modern Vietnamese, ẩu has the meaning "careless; slipshod; random; rash." So "Lady Trieu" is both more accessible to the English-speaking reader and more sensitive. Relisted. Favonian (talk) 20:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC). Kauffner (talk) 07:03, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Survey

 * Question - I ask this seeking to understand the rationale for the proposal above. It's possible that I'm missing something but your use of sources here appears inconsistent with your regular stance in BLP RMs that the majority of sources be preferred even if they are known to be inaccurate and unreliable in context of the question. There are 1,520 Google website hits for "Lady Trieu" vs 27,000 for "Trieu Thi Trinh." Why should we go for accuracy and quality sources for the name of a 3rd Century Vietnamese lady when you won't go for accuracy and quality sources with French (Talk:Stephane Charbonneau) or Czech (Talk:Marek Hrivik) BLPs? I suspect I won't be the only one wondering about this. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:23, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that many readers looking at the current title will suppose that "Trieu Thi Trinh" is either the subject's Vietnamese name, or her name as it appears in the historical record. But it is neither of those things. She is not well-known to English speakers and usage is divided anyway. In contrast, "Lady Trieu" is exactly what it appears to be -- the anglicized form of her Vietnamese common name and historical name. I don't want get into the diacritics issue here. Kauffner (talk) 19:00, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * But there are 1,520 Google website hits for "Lady Trieu" vs 27,000 for "Trieu Thi Trinh." Shouldn't we always go for the majority of reliable English sources? In ictu oculi (talk) 21:28, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I get 27,000 hits for, 63,000 for . Lady Trieu is the name of a race horse and other things, so those numbers don't mean much of anything. I put deghosted GBook numbers in the nomination already: 20 for "Trieu Thi Trinh," 28 for "Lady Trieu." Kauffner (talk) 07:51, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Restore missing RM1
Note:RM 1 was bumped into an archive by logged-out editor prior to RM2 so not visible during RM2. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:02, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 3

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved per request. Favonian (talk) 17:36, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

– per most recent full font sources Lockhart A-Z of Vietnam (2010), Endres (2012) etc. Triệu Dynasty and Đại Việt ("Great Việt" state) per same sources and per WP:AT CRITERIA:Title Consistency with other Category:Vietnamese dynasties Category:Ancient Vietnam. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:56, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Lady Trieu → Lady Triệu
 * Trieu dynasty → Triệu Dynasty
 * Dai Viet → Đại Việt


 * Support. Wikipedia does not normally strip diacritics from such names/terms unless they have been absorbed into English.  There are some sources that can't type diacritics or have style manuals that prohibit diacritics. Wikipedia can and does not.  —  AjaxSmack   03:11, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

What happened to the picture?
Why was the folk art of her riding the elephant removed? Did it have copyright issues or something? Asarelah (talk) 16:05, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:39, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Trieu Lady.jpg