Talk:Lag (video games)/Archive 1

Frame dropping
Frame dropping can be lag also, I don't call it incorrect expression of this word. Dictionary definition of lag is fall behind, I think it doesn't need to be communications delay, it can be anykind of slowdown.


 * Frame rate dropping is usually caused when the GPU can't render the frames as quickly, so it renders fewer of them. Each frame that is rendered is still delivered on time. Lag is a delay in communication so that the information that was sent takes longer than it should to reach its destination. Information arrives late in the presence of lag, and sparse when the frame rate has dropped. Not the same thing. Pengrate 21:30, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Stranger's take on this
However, network lag can (and does in some FPS) cause frame dropping, or frame lag. You can clearly see this in action if you play Tactical Ops v3.50 and limit your network connection speed to a ridiculously low number of bytes/kilobytes per sec. Futhermore, this can also be seen on weaker connections when the bandwidth is being used by some other process/connection.

The reason for it is pretty simple. The server, who has the authority in the 'conversation', controls what the client can/can't see or do. So when the client starts to fall behind in the conversation, the server tries as quickly as possible to get the client up to date, which results in the server sending a large number of packets to the client, so much to the extent that they end up being received out of order and so the client's processor is used to resassemble the transmission of them in the correct order (by use of the SYN number in the packet header).

This obviously doesn't happen just by using slower connections (e.g 56k), but the reason for that is just as simple. The stream of packets to and from the client/server are consistent, so even if there is a slight delay, everything is sent and received in the order it was supposed to be. If a process on the client's computer would start using up the client's bandwidth, this effect would be seen because as above, the server would try to get the client up to date on what's going on as quickly as possible - which obviously - can trigger multiple things which would result in frames being lost.

-- nobody

Frame / CPU lag and server lag
There's a game called Sonic Robo Blast 2 www.srb2.org. If you netgame, you notice two kinds of lag: Frame lag (sometimes called CPU lag) and Server lag. Both of these are types of lag, and both have a negative affect on gameplay. Frame lag affects the client's machine because it is a delay between when the CPU begins to render the frame and when the frame shows up on the screen. Because it is time difference, then it is lag. Server lag, on the other hand, is on the server's side. This happens when the server is so muchly caught up doing something that it can't catch up to all the packets that it needs to send to the clients, so all of the clients connected to the server are affected.

68.64.175.222 23:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

What about the other definitions of the word
It seems we are forgeting to inlclude the definition of the work lag. (Most common: to delay, or fall behind something else). There is also a term in pool games called "Lag" to refer to a way to decide who goes first.

I think it should be noted that I first heard this term used in this way on CompuServ CB (a chat system) and later on IRC, way before multiplayer online games became popular. To say that it is limited to MMOGs is, well, just wrong.

For my 2cents, I don't think that frame rate has any validity in this definition, however I'm sure people talk about frame rate lag or frame lag using the word as it would be defined in most dictionaries. (at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/lag they state that lag means delay comming from middle english)

Hogan 22:31, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I added lag bolts to other meanings even though there is not entry for it yet. Lag bolt is a fairly common term (just go into a harware store and ask for one). badmonkey 05:12, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Factual accuracy
I think the entire section on lag slang is made up. I have never, not once in my several years of online gaming, have seen anyone say any of those terms, therefore I think there should be some verifiable sources cited.pielover87 03:30, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. removed Verfee

Learjeff's opinion
[9 March 2007]The definition originally given in the article is far too narrow. Lag is not a specifically defined techical term. It's a description of a symptom: when the results of actions show up much later than expected. Network latency (which is a well defined term) is only one of the contributors, and in many cases where the term "lag" is used, is a minor or insignificant one. I will update the article accordingly.

[12 April 2007]I also deleted the text that described a kind of network latency that was under the heading of server latency, and the assertion that LAG stood for "Latency Assimulation Gathering". It's an English word, used in its simple normal meaning (from dictionary.reference.com: "to fail to maintain a desired pace or to keep up"). Where do people come up with this stuff!

Well, it's all in the spirit of "truthiness", right?

[May 2010]"Lag" is a symptom: the application responds slowly when it should respond immediately. Lateny is a principal cause in MMORPGs, but there are other causes, such as server processing delays and client processing delays. In well-constructed and managed MMORPGs, server latency should be low. But on ones like Second Life, where world content is user-created and managed, and either or both of servers and clients can be easily overloaded in a number of ways. Lag can happen even when latency is low and regardless of whether a reliable or unreliable service is used (e.g., TCP or UDP).

"Lag" isn't generally used in the context of computer networks in general. It's used in the context of an application.

I don't know who Stranger below refers to. I did not make the quoted statement, and agree that it's questionable. Learjeff (talk)

Stranger's take on this
Your lack of experience in online gaming doesn't invalidate this article. However, the accuracy of this claim: "then joins a multiplayer online game (usually a first-person shooter) and who therefore has a high ping time. In synchronous games, where all clients must know the exact game state, a single "lagger" will slow down the game for everyone, since the server has to wait for the client to get every communication packet." is questionable.

Even FPS engines as old as the UT99 engine replicate everything that is happening - that is, with physics, logic and just common sense - most every turn, jump, duck or fire event is predicted. Even with that aside, the majority of FPS games use the UDP protocol - a protocol that does not guarantee every packet will be delivered. Because of this, the server will send the packet to the client and if the client doesn't acknowledge it - no other player will feel the effect, as the packet will be considered lost.

Situations where a client can lag the server (just by having a slow or inconsistent connection) typically use the TCP protocol, such as MMORPGS. The TCP protocol guarantees that every packet sent will be received by the other end - so when a packet is "lost" or dropped, the server WILL resend it until the client acknowledges it. Additionally, there are protections (although usually undocumented) in those game engines to prevent malicious use of the above. Without it, any user could limit the speed of their connection (by use of a third party tool, such as Netpeeker) to a few bytes/sec and ultimately lag the entire virtual world until they decided to quit.

-- nobody

Johncub's take on this

 * About.com talks about Low ping bastard
 * Google's Low ping bastard search
 * PlanetHalfLife.com talks about H/LPB's
 * I wasn't familiar with the term chop but after a quick google search I saw that it is used in that context. HPB and LPB are terms I've heard for years in the Half-Life world so I have no questions on that but I did provide 3 links above to verify those.  As far as 56ker, that used to be common slang before broadband   and I'm sure the demon part of 56k demon was a put down of sorts or a reference to the Speed Demon 56k modem   as a backhanded compliment.  Perhaps it is because different games show lag in different manners, some show actual values, some show a red light/green light, and some show nothing at all.  I really feel the disputed accuracy warning on the article should be removed.

JohnCub 21:25, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * After much consideration and viewing the user page of the person that brought this up I'm taking the disputed template off. If someone else feels it should stay add it back.  But definitely let everyone know why.

JohnCub 21:28, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Badmonkey's take on this
As someone who was heavily into the Quake level editing scene back in the day (~1996), I can say that the slang section is factually accurate. I've done some digging through old bookmarks and found you references for LPB and HPB: The other terms (56ker variants and chop) were used, but often during gameplay chat - which makes referencing them today nearly impossible. Though these terms may seem odd to younger gamers, an old hag like me revelled in the nostalgia while readig the article. Perhaps the age of the slang should be clarified in the article and note made of their eventual disuse. badmonkey 19:28, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Thresh's Quake Bible reference to High Ping Bastards Though the look of the site has changed the document's text is probably almost ten years old.
 * The Gamer's Guide from Blues News is another old document that has a listing for both HPB and LPB (linked)

This page is very stubby. On the spanish page http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag it says that the word is ''A delay produced in communication, that produces a disagreeable sensation to the user of the medium.

I see the Low Ping Bastards, but shouldn't the High Ping Bastards be noted too? just wondering.reddi 23:43, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

If you want a verifiable source, play the online MMPORG; Runescape. It is a term used for describing times when the games freezes and then unfreezes or when the game runs very slow. Lag is also another word for Frame Dropping.


 * LPB and HPB (sometimes HPW) are very popular terms. Certainly in the Quake era they were the dominent terms used and were also used as categories for tourneys and network play (i.e. HPB teams would play in one bracket, LPB teams in another).  The various other insults, however, are not that standard and are pretty obvious as to their meaning.  Since there's basically an infinite variety of these slurs that you could invent, they don't really belong here.  Pimlottc 22:16, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Portal?
Why not instead turn this entire article into a 'portal page' of many different types of lag? I mean, we're forgetting jet lag, etc. There are probably too many types of lag to document on one single page.

68.64.175.222 21:32, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

No
Bad idea.--219.75.53.242 10:10, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Lag
For myself, I play Gunz the Duel and do encounter lag when loading takes 5 minutes (normal loading is 1 minute). Lag do have something to do with computer speed. I think lag has something to do with System requirement. Now, I'm researching whether the game server and our compuer network server has something to do with lagness.Come to this page.http://www.gunzfactor.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20930 As I'm living in Singapore, a SEA country, I encountered no lag while playing MapleSEA while my "friend", Jing Yuan, who has a slow computer, lagged and hanged while playing MapleSEA. I believe his computer did not have the standards of MapleSEA's game requirements.--219.75.53.242 10:10, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Physical Media type
The physical media type, hardware used to transport the information is a very important cause of delay, missing here. For instance, transmiting packets through a 512kbit satellite link has a much higher latency than transmiting the same through a 512kbit copper or fiber link. Available bandwidth has no direct influence on the latency issue. Dynamic routing protocols may use several available link types along the transmition way, with very diferent latency values. Routing bottlenecks may occur, and also routing changes to minimize that issue. This is why that during a transmission latency can change significaly. --Netshark 13:51, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

QoS devices
Lag is also severely affected by Quality of service (QoS) devices that deliberately queue some packets with a higher transmission priority, basing that decision on the packet type. For instance a ISP that gives an higher priority to http packets than to the online game packets can make online gaming unsuitable in it's links. --Netshark 14:03, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

False Headline
"Causes of Lag"

Yea it just stated where lag is found not what causes it. Needs a Change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.227.154.176 (talk) 00:04, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

"How to fix" Section
I would propose to remove or rewrite this section from scratch because it is written in very simplicistic terms at this moment. Luca Mauri 10:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The first sentence isn't even coherent. Someone who doesn't play an MMO needs to write this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.229.72.137 (talk) 15:00, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Difference between frame dropping and frame lag
Ohhh, I see.

In some games, there are two types of video modes: Video synchonization (VSync) and non-Video synchronized. In VSync, it is frame dropping (because some frames have to be skipped), so that would be an incorrect usage of lag because the game will still run just as fast even though the video would not be as smooth / fluid. If, however, the game does NOT use VSync, then it would be frame lag because the game tries to render each frame one after another without skipping any, so the game would slow down because of it.

68.64.175.222 23:39, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm confused, does frame dropping mean the kind of lag where you're frozen and all of a sudden your guy does a bunch of stuff because of all the button presses queued up? And does frame lag refer to "undo lag" where you're walking and then your guy all of a sudden goes back as if it never happened?--99.237.222.73 (talk) 12:24, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Should that be an example?
I don't think that call of duty should be an example, it is notable, but unlike the other two examples it is not exclusiveley multiplayer (do they all even have a multiplayer function?), furthermore, Call Of Duty is a very vague term (six games, many expansions, some on consoles with limited use of the internet). I would recommend using a gane such as counter strike (Which is multiplyer only as far as I know) or M.A.G (which would be a better example, but may not be the best idea as it is a PS3 exclusive.) --Fulizer (talk) 08:39, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Lags vs Computing Performance Drops (pops?)
I think that, just like the Computer Performance article, this article should explicitely say that computing performance issues are not lag. As a matter of fact, saying lag is much easier than describing the actual problem, so I started a campaign to call the other thing a "pop".

"How was gaming?" "Too many pops :("

"Yeah it is quite popular amongst the teenage population to name performance drops lags although that's inap(r)opriate." :) --SerraAvenger (talk) 00:38, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Definitely should not be calling local client performance issues "lag". A computer is drawing frames as fast as it possibly can, therefore they are not behind or "lagged". I somehow doubt the etymology has been covered by a major publication, someone want to make edits or should we just tag everything needing citations? Desirsar (talk) 13:46, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Learjeff (talk) 21:25, 18 July 2011 (UTC) I disagree that client lag shouldn't be called lag. It's not server lag, and it's not network lag, but it is lag. For example, in Second Life, the scenes are created by users and can be very inefficient. Sometimes the servers can keep up and so can clients on fast computers. However, folks running slow computers see lag: the game responds slowly to controls. When people complain of lag, the first thing we have to do when helping others is ask key questions to tell which of the 3 types it is. Lag is a symptom, not a cause, and it doesn't help communications to limit the use to a particular cause.

Client LAG. An update action runs every 100 milliseconds, while it takes around 50 to 85 milliseconds to finish your game runs smoothly. If the update action starts to take more than 100 milliseconds to finish you will experience latency.

Server LAG. Can occur for the same reasons stated above but on server side, in that case every client will experience latency at server dependent actions. Can also occur due to slow internet connections. Using the example above, while the connection takes less than 100 milliseconds to notify the client, all is good. As soon as it takes longer you have latency.

So they all share the same problem, but with different causes, therefore is correct to call LAG to all those situations.

Yout computer performance stays more or less stable. The load you put on it is what changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.243.216.106 (talk) 02:49, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Connection quality question. Is this true of false?
Is it true that people who live close to the servers get the best connection while people who live far get laggy connection or is this a myth? I think this might contribute to why online gaming is so laggy. 69.181.141.140 (talk) 02:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily true, the longer the cable is, the more time it takes. But you may pass through routers and servers, and the load on those contribute a lot. Also remember that phisical distances don't really relate that much to wire distances. For example if you connect directly to a friends IP in the same city, even if you live side by side, the connection still goes to a centralized ISP server. Also the upload and download speeds provided by the ISP on both ends is very important, servers normally don't have this issue, clients do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.243.216.106 (talk) 02:56, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

What does 'lag' stand for?
Exactly what does 'lag' stand for, if anything?

LAG stands for Latency in Game.


 * It's not an acronym: it's a word that's been in English since the 16th century, with the meaning of 'failing to keep pace' (Etymonline, Wiktionary). From it we get to lag behind, time lag, jet lag, etc.—80.192.180.160 (talk) 04:10, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Merge proposal
I propose to merge Lag and Lag (online gaming). The latter is not enough of a stand-alone topic to merit it's own article. Combining two messy articles may eventually produce one higher-quality article. --Kvng (talk) 16:30, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Completely agree (though now the latter is higher-quality than the former!) Ariehkovler (talk) 15:14, 4 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree, with both the original point and the fact that the latter article is the better quality. However, I still think it would be better to merge it to a page called "Lag", rather than "Lag (gaming)". As this was suggested several years ago, and there has been no opposition, I'll action the merge now. Sotakeit (talk) 13:34, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

References to OnLive
There are several references to an organization called OnLive, the Wikipedia article of which states that the company is defunct or something similar. This article should probably be updated to reflect that. –Addison314159 (talk) 04:02, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

NOOO!!!
Why did u remove the how to fix section? that's the only reason I came here anyway!!1

By the way, lag can mean many things, but in online gaming, lag means the time it takes for your computer to communicate to the server and back, so obviously the lower, the better. FPS games obviously have a higher demand for lower lag, than let's say mmorpg's do, because of their high speed style of playing.

I play WOW, and despite having a 1.5 Mbps connection I frequently encounter very high latency (400ms-2000ms). Sometimes if I play for more than 1 hour, it goes down to like 300ms. As I see it, there are several possibilities why people encounter lag. One is obviously a slow connection. Second, using an unstable connection, like a wi-fi 802.11a-b, which is unstable, and can be fast, and then slow again. Third, running a background task, such as updates, torrents, and such. Third, improperly configured firewalls. If you have a firewall, certain ports need to open for you to play a game, otherwise, you will not be able to play with good latency, or even connect to the game at all. I think there should be a section in the article on some easy fixes or something that can be tried to fix bad lag.

Sacrublood (sorry I was on a public computer and did not have the time to log in)
 * Sorry, but: ...an article should not read like a "how-to" style owner's manual... Snori (talk) 01:34, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Lag (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:02, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

What is Lag?
lag is high ping

lag is too much people on the server

lag is somtimes caused by slow connections to the server Hello, I am an IP address, your information is misguiding, and you spelt "somtimes" wrong. Lag can also be low frames per second.

Yo lag is mostly internet connection, just saying 152.32.113.199 (talk) 10:07, 12 September 2020 (UTC)