Talk:Laiko Vima

Frantzi
I see that this is used as a source, although this source is in many instances editorial and pro-Greek. Until a better and more neutral source is provided I'll add the pov template.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:41, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Sentences like:


 * The generation of teachers who taught up until the 1960s had been educated in Greece, and despite the restrictions imposed on them by the Albanian government, could offer to their pupils a relatively good education.

almost sixty years since the government of Albania first tried a policy of Albanisation of the Greek minority, and fourteen years since democracy opened up Pandora’s box. What will happen to these Greeks? Is Greek culture in the region a matter of the past?
 * Ninety years have passed since the Great Powers divided Epirus in two,

show the editorial, biased and partly nationalist character of the writing of Frantzi.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:45, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

It's about the stalinist regime it governed Albania (1945-1991), and its confirmed by several sources. And off course it has nothing to do with irredentism. Moreover, it's an peer reviewed by the Aristotle University of Thessaloniki and published in the Institute of Neohellenic research [], one of the more prestigious research institutes of that kind in Greece. I see your quest to follow me around in every article possible has become your main obsession. 13:54, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not following you around and I'm just mentioning some obvious remarks about Frantzi.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:28, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

That the socialist republic of Albania was a stalinist regime that high degree of cencorship existed is a fact, and this cited by several sources inside. I'm sorry but you are mysteriously following me around in every article possible during your short term wikilife here.Alexikoua (talk) 14:29, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not saying that it wasn't a stalinist regime(this has nothing to with frantzi, she's not even used as a source for that), I'm saying that for the sentences you're using frantzi as a source you could try finding a more neutral source like the "forbidden values" part. Again I'm not following you around, you're the one editing Albania-related article not me editing Greece-related articles, so take it easy.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:36, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I'll explain it simply: In a totalitarian regime censorship is a daily experience (like Communist Albania). As a consequence several authors had to find ways to evade cencorship: like use metaphors and allegory in their poems. Moreover the authors that use this methods have been recognized for their contribution by modern Albanian state and some of them have also became MPs in the Albanian government (like Andreas Zarbalas who's also used as a primary in Frantzy and Nikos Katsalidas). Suppose this is more than enough to make this work completely npov by a third part user.Alexikoua (talk) 15:06, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not denying that there was censorship, I am plainly saying that another (more neutral) source would be useful to cite the metaphors part.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:32, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually it's the definition of: Rs: peer reviewed, academic, published by a highly prestigious research institute. Moreover its primary sources are also of high quality: authors that have been awarded by post communist Albania.Alexikoua (talk) 17:10, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That says that:

and My point isn't that it is "wrong", it could be right, but a more distanced source to verify that would be better.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:51, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The scholarly acceptance of a source can be verified by confirming that the source has entered mainstream academic discourse, for example by checking the scholarly citations it has received in citation indexes.
 * Isolated studies are usually considered tentative and may change in the light of further academic research.

According to wiki policy this is good enough and passes wp:rs, since it is confirmed by a number of additional sources inside the article. The scholarly acceptance of a source can be verified by confirming that the source has entered mainstream academic discourse. Thank you.Alexikoua (talk) 11:38, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

None of the other sources refer to this part about the metaphors.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:27, 230 March 2010 (UTC)

Metaphors are used as a mean for censorship evasion. Censorship existed & and the metaphors are confirmed by a number of highly respected personalities in modern Albania, so we have the definition of wp:rs. Since you are a newcomer in wiki I understand your curiosity on the subject.Alexikoua (talk) 13:09, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm slightly interested in this subject, mainly because I know some of the editors of Laiko Vima. Therefore, I have a more "realistic" view of the subject, leading me not to lionize or idealize anything. -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

What makes Laiko Vima historically significant is its existence during the communist era. After 1991 it's just an ordinary private newspaper. I've met some old editors of Laiko Vima in the past. Nikos Katsalidas for example who wrote both Greek and Albanian poems using the metaphoric style to evade being arrested for his non-communist ideas. However I prefer not to use wp:or as an argumentAlexikoua (talk) 13:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree on that, it's better not to use our personal experiences as a source.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:48, 30 March 2010 (UTC)