Talk:Lak (tribe)

Shadegan
Is a troll with a lot of time on his hands. His anti-Kurdish propaganda is clear as day-light. He clearly has a hate towards Kurds and the separatist Kurdish movement. What he doesn't realize is that all Kurds in Iran are not separatists. Laks are Kurd! Go on youtube and listen to any Laki song. They're Kurd. You won't find any of the Lak artists who identify as Lurs, none. The Laki language is Kurdi! I bet you don't even speak Laki to know. Google Lak Amir, he's a Lak poet. Look at the poems he's written about his Kurdish roots.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble Shadegan, Laks are not Lur, they're Kurd. Lurs and Laks and Kurds made clear distinctions about a 1,000 years ago. This is documented. It's documented that Zand people the first original Lak tribes identified as Kurds in their writings and culture. There is a museum in Iran just south of Harsin about Laki people. If you go there maybe you can educate yourself.

The anti-Kurd propaganda
I know some of the users that edited this page. They're also on youtube and have been in long lasting debates with users on youtube trying to spread the propaganda that Laks are Lurs. You can even read the same anti-Kurd propaganda here on this Wikipedia page and it's sad, very sad what this person has done to our history online. In those youtube videos this person is arguing with hundreds of different users who're saying they're Lak and are from Kurdish ancestry.

Like I've said, I've never once met a Lak in my lifetime and I grew up in Iran in Lorestan and Kermanshah. I've never met a like who identified with Lurish culture. Lurs are not bad people and at the end of the day we all share the same roots but Laks are immediately Kurdish as oppose to Lurish. This is absurd how they've completely changed our identity online with this rubbish. I've never seen a single bit of Luri culture in Laks. Even most Lurs would tell you that Laks are not Lur. This is pure pure rubbish. Anyone from this region of Iran would tell you this. There are other Kurdish tribes that are very similar to Laks that live close in proximity to Lurs like the Sanjabis or the Feylis. And now recently someone has also has made edits to the Feyli tribe article and called them Feyli Lurs! What on earth? Feyli has been traditionally Kurd for centuries. Feyli's are some of the oldest Kurdish people and populate most of Southern Iraqi Kurdistan. What is this rubbish! My God. This is obvious Kurdish hate! The person who runs this page should be banned from Wikipedia! Look at his comments against Kurds down below, and look at his propaganda on youtube. This guy is probably the only Lak who thinks he's Lur and is trying to change history by making false Wikipedia pages and arguing his propaganda on youtube.

Laks are not Lur
I'm Lak from Nurabad Lorestan. I've never met a Lak who has identified himself has Lur. Most Laks that live in the region of Lakestan which is prominently (99.9%) Lak, from Chemchamal to Bistun to Harsin to Nurabad and West towards Jalalavand and Kuhdesht identify themselves as Kurd. Our language, if you know Laki language, is almost 100% Kurdi. The only difference is, is that we put "m" in front of some verbs, not even all verbs just some of them. And that's honestly the only difference between any of the other Kurdish dialects around Kermanshah and Ilam and Laki. For example, most of the other Kurdish tribes say "Atwam, Achem, Akhem, Ari, etc." Laks say "Matwam, Machem, Mahkhem, Mari" Everything else is 100% Kurdi. I've grown up in Nurabad we had a small Lur population because Nurabad is a mostly Lak city. The Laks and Lur families definitely spoke different. I don't understand Luri very much. Si chi means because or why, and most of their language is a slight dialect of farsi. But Laks for example say "arrah" for because, and all the other Kurdish tribes also say "arrah" So exactly how are Laks Lur? My mother is a Lak from Kermanshah city in the province of Kermanshah and they are also similar in language and culture. We don't wear Luri clothes, our dances are not Luri, our weddings are not like the Lurs, our traditional clothing is not like the Lurs. But our traditional clothing, weddings, and dances are like all the other Kurd tribes. I have pictures of my great, grand father and they are wearing traditional Kurdish clothes even back then. I also have a copy of an old book where they've written down my families lineage from several generations back and we've come from Kurdish roots not any part of our ancestry has a Lur family name.

Izadpanah
Izadpanah in the new version of his book says that "Laki is more related to Kurdish than Luri"--70.120.172.189 (talk) 18:37, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

the student's thesis
Co'mon people please do not put info without a citation as somebody did here in this article. I think all info without a citation should be deleted. And Please do not give a student's tehesis as a reference as somebody did it here with Mr. Anonby, Erik John's student thesis. It is not fair. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.182.8.187 (talk) 22:41, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * You are right. Who is Erik John Anonby?--Gomada (talk) 20:03, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Here is Encyclopedia
Dear users and editors Due to their voracious appetite to make propaganda about the so-called Great Kurdistan and unfortunately impalpable and pale presence of Lurish users, some Kurdish users recently have began significant sabotages and distorting realities to expand their territory even by fake comments and edits. I hope you being able to study or read the Persian editions of these pages (Laki dialect and Lak people of Iran). My edits only is an effort to prevent their counterfeit actions. During my edits I have pointed out to valid and authentic references.--Shadegan (talk) 13:09, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Look at this anti-Kurdish crap. This is obvious propoganda ^^^ How does Wikipedia allow for this.

POV-push and reliability of sources
Hello, please look at this and this edits of user:Shadegan. It's important to look at sources. For example, the user:Shadegan added , Erik John Anonby as a so-called source which supports Laki belongs to Luri language. But if you read pages 19 and 20, you can see a comparison of Pish-e Kuh Laki with Kurdish and Luri. After that the author says: Pish-e Kuh Laki is aligned with Kurdish rather than Luri. This is distortion of information. User:Shadegan is also adding some persian sources which can not be checked/proved. Thanks.--Gomada (talk) 14:07, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Another falsifying from User:Shadegan. The source says:Fayli (Faylee, Faili, or Feli) Kurds are, as their name tells, an inseparable segment of the Kurdish population in Iraq and an integral part of the Kurdish nation, which is divided among many countries in the Middle East, mainly Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey. Fayli Kurds have themselves shown, over the years, and still show this fact and reality by words and deeds. They speak a dialect that belongs to the southern Kurdish dialect called Luri which is spoken in the southern areas of Kurdistan proper, particularly on both sides of the border areas between Iraq and Iran. And the user:Shadegan is using this source as a proof of so called Lur identity. Who will stop this vandalism?--Gomada (talk) 11:41, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

POV-push and Large-scale vandalism effort by user: Gomada
As it was asked by English Wikipedia administrators, I provided some authentic and valid references for Lurish Identity of Feyli Lurs in two edited pages. As you can see in the history of these pages the user User:Gomada has changed and removed these logical and authentic edits. As an old user of Wikipedia I think some users have imagined and counted this invaluable and useful encyclopedia as a farce and mischief area to distort the realities and promote their ethnocentric and ambitious aims. I hope Wikipedia adminstrators and other realistic users help to stop and prevent such inappropriate vandalism efforts.--Shadegan (talk) 13:50, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

There is no such valid evidence for dreaming up the term Feyli Lurs. I've never in my life hear such nonsense. This is just the same anti-Kurdish propaganda from these users who hate the Kurds because of their separatist sentiments. Politics aside. Feyli's and Laks are not Lur. Nor by culture nor by tradition, nor by language. This is absolute rubbish.

ok

Requested move 17 August 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved per consensus and argument by nominator   Megan Barris   (Lets talk📧)  12:49, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Laks (Iran) → Lak (tribe) – Most Kurdish tribes titles on Wikipedia are in singular and its a bit misleading to have country mentioned when there are also Lak tribal members in both Turkey and Iraq, as mentioned in the article. Laki could also have been a possibility but I went with the name Iranica uses. Semsûrî (talk) 07:59, 17 August 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Megan Barris   (Lets talk📧)  11:42, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 03:39, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Iranica refrains from calling them a Kurdish tribe
For the record. The Iranica entry cites a plethora of sources and arguments that have mentioned the Laks in one way or another. The entry itself, interestingly, clearly refrains from calling them a Kurdish tribe.

"LAK (or Lakk), an ethnic term used for a large number of people residing in a vast part of present-day Iran. The original meaning of the word in Persian, “hundred thousands,” apparently refers to the original number of families that constituted a nomadic tribal confederation (...) The first reference to the Lak is found in the Šaraf-nāma, the first history of Kurdistan, by Amir Šaraf-al-Din Khan Bedlisi (d. 1012/1603-04), in which the name Lak is the first one wherever are mentioned the names of the Kurds of Iran (e.g., Bedlisi, pp. 418, 424). It is cited together with the Zand, which is regarded as one of the most important Lak tribes. (...) From a cultural point of view, the Lak are very close to their neighbors and have sometimes been confused with them, especially with the Lors in their southern and eastern environs. (...)"

"The main ethnic marker of the Lak is their language called “Laki.” On the basis of the linguistic fieldwork made by the German linguist Oskar Mann, Vladimir Minorsky mentioned the Lak as “the most southern group of Kurd tribes of Persia” (Minorky, “Lak,” p. 616). After field research made by Oskar Mann, there remained until recently no doubt about the nature of the Laki language.  After the death of Oskar Mann, Karl Hadank continued to work on the material collected by him.  Both of these linguists declared that Laki was related to Kurdish and different from Lori.  Since then, all linguists and other scholars consider Laki to be included in the Northwest group of Iranian language and include Lori among the Southwest group of Iranian languages.  It has been only recently that some linguists, on the basis of a new scientific approach, have begun to have doubt about this kind of classifications in general. Moreover, Oskar Mann had rightly found that the difference between Laki and other southern Kurdish dialects to be only minor (“nur unwesentlich”; Mann, p. xxiii). Therefore, he puts Laki along with other south Kurdish dialects under the general rubric “Laki” (Mann, p. xxvii). What is more, in a list compiled by J. L. Rousseau at Kermanshah in 1807, several south Kurdish tribes like the Kalhor, Māfi, Ṣufiwand, Karkuʾi, Jalilvand, and Kolyāʾi have been classified among the Laki tribes (Rousseau, pp. 85-98)."

Yet, in spite of all this, the entry has been used as a reference to support the statement that they are full-blown Kurds. - LouisAragon (talk) 13:17, 15 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The author of the piece M. Reza Hamzehʼee does use the term Laki Kurds in another work of his so I guess he refrains from doing so in the Iranica piece for whatever reason. But I agree that the reference is perhaps not the best in this context. --Semsûrî (talk) 14:16, 15 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your response. I have removed it from the lede per failed WP:VER. - LouisAragon (talk) 20:04, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2021
Please add back the Jalalvand Tribe. They are a very large tribe with 92 villages in Jalalvand region of Kermanshah. There is an entire region called Jalalvand in Kermanshah district. Also, the Jalilvand tribe and Jalalvand tribe are distinct tribes. So when adding Jalalvand back to the list (as it used to be on the list), please do not remove Jalilvand from the list. DinavarKermanshah (talk) 05:53, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Jalalvand is already on the list as Jalilvand, I've changed the name. --Semsûrî (talk) 11:27, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Semsûrî. Jalalvand and Jalilvand are two different families or subtribes of the Lak tribe. That is what we are telling you. I appreciate your contribution to this page thus far, but you must realize that these are two different tribes. Jalalvandis are from the Jalalvand region near Eslamabad city in Western Kermanshah and are an older subtribe. On the other-hand, the Jalilvand clan was formed in Shiraz more recently by the Laks who travelled there with Karim Khan Zand. Some of them stayed in Shiraz, and so now Jalilvand is a prominent surname in Shiraz. They were dispersed during their return back to their homelands in Lorestan and Kermanshah. They have villages all over Lorestan, Kermanshah, Hamedan, Karaj, Khorasan, Qazvin, Gilan, and Azerbaijan, due to re-location campaigns lead by various rulers after Karim Khan Zand's demise.

For the last 100 plus years, they have been particularly associated with the connected Dinaavar-Chemchamal-Bistun regions of Kermanshah in Sahne and Harsin counties in eastern Kermanshah. They are the most prominent Lak tribe in Dinavaar county in Sahne. They are also relevant in western Kermanshah near Eslamabad and Kerend-e Gharb, north of the Jalalvand region. And they are also very prominent in Tuyserkan, Hamedan. They are perhaps the most scattered Lak subtribe. There are villages called Jalilvand all across "Lakestan." --Lakestan (talk) 06:52, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Fouladvand, Baharvand and Pap tribes
These tribes are not of Laki origin, neither do they identify as Laks. Fouladvands are Bakhtiaris, Papi and Baharvand are Lor-e Koochak, yet somehow this wiki page decides to label them as Laki Kurds.

Interestingly, the source provided to claim these tribes as Lak is a broken link. As a Lor myself, I am perfectly happy to call Laks Kurds and accept that Laks are not Lurs. There is however a limit; Laks do not have the right to claim Luri tribes as Kurdi.

For the time being, I cannot find any sources from Papis and Baharvands themselves (although Iranica is very clear that both are Lor-e Koochak, and this isn't some sort of secret either), however the Fouladvands have written their own book about their history.

http://yaftenews.ir/introduction/book-introduction/7786-fooladvand.html

Here it is. Rectify this at once.


 * I assume they are mentioned in the Shahokhabar reference (now archived) as Laki. It would be easier if you had reliable references to counter this. "For the time being, I cannot find any sources from Papis and Baharvands themselves" is not good enough. Also read how Wikipedia works (i.e. RS) instead of going on a racist rant. --Semsûrî (talk) 01:26, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

And shortly afterwards, this happens. Mako001 (C) (T) (The Alternate Mako) 15:40, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Remove HistoryOfIran from this article
The account "HistoryOfIran" must be barred from this page. Over the past decade, HistoryOfIran has contributed nothing constructive, only adding inaccurate and inconsistent information from weak sources. Sources that sometimes do not even support the idea or statistics that HistoryOfIran is claiming. HistoryOfIran has no knowledge or familiarity related to this article, HistoryOfIran's only reason for being here is to promote a supremest Persian narrative that feels threatened by non-Persian particularly Kurdish influences in Iranian history. Beyond this particular article, among articles like this, HistoryOfIran's efforts are consistently aimed in one direction and that is to minimize Kurdish influence in Iranian history and society as much as possible. In this particular article, HistoryOfIran has no subject matter knowledge related to this article, their presence here is merely a nuisance and a source of inaccuracies. Lakestan (talk) 19:43, 14 April 2024 (UTC)


 * I haven't edited this article since August 2023, and I don't think we have communicated in years - am I that rent free in your head? If you think I am disruptive, report me to WP:ANI. Next time you throw WP:ASPERSIONS at me, I'll take you there myself. HistoryofIran (talk) 20:01, 14 April 2024 (UTC)