Talk:Lake Oswego

Artificial lake
Is there some reason why people keep deleting "artificial"? Please just go ahead and put "man made" there instead, and I'll look the other way even though I prefer gender-neutral language. I don't believe "artificial" implies anything negative. Am I missing something? Katr67 06:32, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps because it implies the lake is entirely artificial. It was a natural lake, but much smaller than the current, hand dug size it is now.  Maybe originally 1/3 to 1/5 of its current size, though I haven't studied it since seventh grade.  —EncMstr 06:57, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I don't really care one way or the other (I just changed the original wording), but the current wording "Oswego Lake is a private lake (an expansion of an earlier natural lake...)" with "lake" linking to reservoir (because that is what "artificial lake" redirects to) is a bit muddled and needs explanation. If you find sources for the hand-dug part that would be a very interesting addition to the article. Katr67 07:36, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I don';t think that the lake was dug out any further, it was dammed and allowed to rise further in order to create a more scenic shoreline (and cover ugly stumps along the shore). I have a source on this that I will try to get to soon. --Esprqii 13:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The historical society ladies who gave the lecture were quite memorable describing dozens of Chinese slave laborers digging especially the ends of the lake. Just look at the lake when it is drained:  West Bay, Lakewood Bay (at the northeast corner), and the southern arms and canals are all uniformly 5 to 10 feet deep and extremely smooth bottomed, obviously artificial.  —EncMstr 15:47, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * They did dig out a canal from the Tualatin River to the lake, but I don't think they dug out much else, besides perhaps the canal to connect Lakewood Bay (which was originally a duck pond). They changed from a wooden dam to a concrete dam in about 1920, which gave them the ability to better control the lake level. Then they raised the standard level to hide the stumps and create a prettier shoreline. I don't know what makes a lake "artificial." If they removed the dam and closed the canal, a lake, albeit much smaller, would still exist. I just had time to glance at my source this morning (which I think is by one of those historical ladies: Iron, Wood, and Water by Ann Fulton). See also here: http://www.lakecorp.com/watershed.php?PHPSESSID=f935c5285a3e8702f502401deac3466d --Esprqii 17:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Oooh, check out myth #1 here: http://www.oswegoheritage.org/history/mythsmuddles.html --Esprqii 18:51, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

(undent) Excellent. Good sleuthing. General hint (mostly directed at User:TruthseekerB44): if you change an article, be sure to use edit summaries to clear up any confusion about what you are doing. Luckily this time our confusion led us to dig up some better sources. :) I don't suppose anybody actually wants to write Oswego Lake, hmmm? Katr67 19:03, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was thinking we needed a new article, too. I'll try to start one, but I'm not claiming it if someone else wants to beat me to it. --Esprqii 20:01, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

External links modified
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no Sunn?
Former home of the Sunn Musical Equipment and Fender (guitar amplifiers) factory. Weeb Dingle (talk) 03:47, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110614220620/http://www.ci.oswego.or.us/plan/Historic_Resources_Advisory_Board/Landmarks/TwiningsHouse/Twinnings.pdf to http://www.ci.oswego.or.us/plan/Historic_Resources_Advisory_Board/Landmarks/TwiningsHouse/Twinnings.pdf

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Censorship concerns
Someone behind an IP that resolves to the City of Lake Oswego removed information that was properly referenced without explanation. Soon after, a single purpose account started to remove the information objecting that its "hurtful" or unflattering. I believe the information is properly cited with multiple references through reliable sources and should stay. Graywalls (talk) 23:49, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Racism in lead
Given the significant attention the town has received regarding racism, I think a sentence about its reputation as a racist city is warranted. Graywalls (talk) 21:44, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The sentence removed from the lead was: "Historian James W. Loewen reports it has a reputation as an 'elite white suburb' that locals often call the city 'Lake No Negro'". This should not be added to the lead because:
 * The lead should summarize the most important points of the article, per MOS:LEAD. That sentence doesn't.
 * The sentence unbalances the article, per WP:UNDUE.
 * The nickname "Lake No Negro" is mentioned later in the article along with all the other nicknames for the Lake Oswego.
 * Hialeah, Florida has a larger white population, but look how awkward adding that to the lead there would be? Moreover, the median household income is just $71,597.  Not really "rich".
 * A consensus was reached not to add descriptions about a city's affluence to the lead section.
 * This place has received only recent and ephemeral attention to racism, however, Wikipedia is not a newspaper. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:49, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Does Hialeah, FL have a reputation for racism? If the consensus exists for not including wealthy, we could leave the "elite" out. I do believe Lake Oswego and its reputation as a racist community is an important point. Graywalls (talk) 03:02, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Notable people list
That list occupies half the page. This maybe undue! Graywalls (talk) 23:24, 11 September 2020 (UTC) The inclusion rules were never discussed. Since I don't know the consensus on what's reasonable to include, I started a discussion at Wikiproject Cities. Please see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cities Graywalls (talk) 11:17, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Recent racist incident
User:Graywalls added a section entitled "Racial incidents", which included the following: "In August 2020, Lake Oswego received significant media attention when its resident received an anonymous letter from neighbors asking them to take down their 'Black Lives Matter' signage from the window complaining that it lowers property values. Mayor Studebaker acknowledged racist incidents have been an issue in Lake Oswego."

Sources supporting the edit were:.

Please note that "Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events", per WP:NOTNEWS, while this was a single incident by small group of people. I have been unable to locate any follow-up coverage, and the sources cited (except Yahoo) are all local. There appears to be no widespread coverage of this incident. All kinds of events "go viral" for a day or two on social media, and are sometimes reported on by media, though the incidents are almost always ephemeral. Including this in the article adds undue WP:WEIGHT, and introduces bias. The last source cited even quotes the mayor of Lake Oswego describing this as "a recent racist incident", "a 'one-off' situation", and "an isolated incident". The input of others is appreciated. Magnolia677 (talk) 09:39, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm getting the impression that you're applying WP:EVENTCRIT which is for articles created for events and it also seems you have no familiarity with this city. I'm not saying every sensational or routine events should go into the article, but inclusion criteria is not held to the same level of standards as a stand-alone article about the event. The racism incidents in this city is of enough prominence to be worthy of inclusion. That recent incident perhaps was the most widely covered one, but far from being being isolated: That section might need expansion to better include other instances to show a pattern, but racism is certainly not one of.
 * https://www.koin.com/news/racist-road-rage-stirs-lake-oswegos-emotions/
 * https://pamplinmedia.com/lor/48-news/470924-380709-respond-to-racism-hosts-juneteenth-event-at-millennium-plaza-park
 * https://pamplinmedia.com/pt/9-news/477920-386292-removing-racist-language-from-oregon-property-deeds-not-easy
 * https://pamplinmedia.com/lor/108-education/467711-378701-behind-the-documentary-lake-no-negro
 * https://www.pdx.edu/challenge-program/challenge-spotlight
 * https://www.kgw.com/article/news/education/lake-oswego-students-stage-walkout-to-promote-racial-equality/283-514723122
 * https://www.kptv.com/news/lake-oswego-school-district-parents-meet-to-discuss-recent-acts-of-racism/article_57073396-0f15-561c-ae6f-3a9d51a0f64a.html

Graywalls (talk) 17:28, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
 * User:Graywalls - WP:NOTNEWS and WP:WEIGHT are applicable to article content, and particularly applicable to the content you added. I never mentioned WP:EVENTCRIT; it's not applicable.  Moreover, the sources you added are all local coverage.  Please consider reverting your edit. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:51, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Where are you getting at with "this is only local"? We're not evaluating things for WP:ORGCRIT. I don't agree with your assessment of inclusion criteria. Look at Ann Arbor, Michigan, a featured article and relatively generous use of local coverage. Please provide policy or broad consensus indicating against local coverage for contents within articles where the article's existence notability has already been established. I'm not aware of anything discouraging local coverage. Establishing notability for organizations and companies is the only place where this is a big deal. Graywalls (talk) 22:55, 16 September 2020
 * WP:NOTNEWS and WP:WEIGHT suggest this is not an appropriate section. I'd offer some compromise but  feel the entire section needs removal, and you seem unwilling to revert your edit. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:54, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I am disagreeing with your application of the guidelines. You also haven't provided the answer I specifically requested which was for guidelines or consensus advising against inclusion of contents into city articles based on LOCAL coverage. Graywalls (talk) 17:35, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
 * That this event was only covered locally indicates it was not a significant current event. Again, "Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events", per WP:NOTNEWS.  An ephemeral, local event such as this is not notable. Magnolia677 (talk) 17:49, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
 * "I have been unable to locate any follow-up coverage, and the sources cited ( except Yahoo )" you're contradicting yourself. Why should Yahoo be EXCLUDED? By the way, Oregonlive and OPB are regional, not local. Graywalls (talk) 17:55, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
 * If you read what I wrote again, in its entirety, it will make sense to you, and what appears a contradiction will clear like a mud-free river. This has become tedious. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:41, 19 September 2020 (UTC)