Talk:Lake Tahoe/Archive 1

Some Guy's points
Couple of points about Lake Tahoe. Sorry, I'm not much of a writer, so I'll start here and hopefully someone can help turn this into somthing worth inclusion.

1) a map would help too - a map could put some better feeling to the statement that "The area surrounding Lake Tahoe is full of restaurants, ski slopes and wooded homes, and casinos."  This would depend on your opinon of what constitutes "full".  There are, in fact, something like 6 large casinos on the south end of the lake, and another 2 or 3 on the north end. This is not counting slot machines in grocery stores and gas stations on the NV side.  In any case, about 1/3 to 1/2 the shoreline of Lake Tahoe is undeveloped, perhaps more.  There are large tracts on both the east and west sides that are undeveloped, or have only state/federal campgrounds/parks.

2) There is considerable disagreement about exactly what is causing the degredation of the clarity of the Lake.  The latest thing I've heard get the blame was roads (particularly dirt roads) because of runoff.  There have also been suggestions that building over/draining/limiting the natural wetlands at the south end of the lake, where a good deal of water enters the lake, has caused that water to be in a less filtered state when it enters the lake, and consequently negatively impacts clarity.  Smog blown over the mountains from the central valley has been cited as contributing.  Excessive lake levels (using the lake as water storage by local water authorities) has been suggested as causing greater than normal lake edge erosion, with consequently more "stuff" in the water, again, decreasing clarity.  Basicly, there are a large number of potential causes, none of which are likely THE cause, all of which likely contribute, and all of which have their interest groups that are particularly pushing/defending that cause. UC Davis was commissioned to do a study of the causes of clarity loss/pollution. I don't think they've finished that study yet.

3) I don't believe there is an injunction currently in place prohibiting construction.  The big hotel just on the CA side of the line at South L. Tahoe has just recently undergone a major expansion...

4) Real estate prices which include a lake view are currently out-of-site high.  Prices get much more reasonable when you get out of sight the lake.

5) Lake Tahoe is actually more popular in the summer time than the winter time, at least judging by room rates.  Lots of people don't like the cold, I guess.

6) Some kinds of jetskis are banned on the Lake (two strokes, I believe).  There has been talk of banning them all.  Not likely to happen, there are people that make too much money renting jetskis...

7) The lake is roughly rectangular, with a bit of a bulge on the west side.  It is about 20 miles north to south, and 10 to 15 miles wide.  It is surrounded by mountains, all the way around, rising up to 4000 feet above lake level.

8) A hiking trail encircling the Lake has recently been completed.

8) There are 8 or 9 Lake Tahoe ski areas, depending on how far from the Lake your willing to go and still say it's a Lake Tahoe resort:

a) Heavenly Valley - south shore, most expensive, largest by acrage, has tram connecting to "downtown" hotels/casinos. b)  Sierra-at-Tahoe - mid-sized resort, just over Echo Summit (on Hwy 50) from Lake Tahoe. You can see the Lake from the top of the resort. c) Homewood - west-side of the Lake (often not accessible to due avalanche controls around Emerald Bay).  Relatively small and inexpensive. d)  Granlibbaken (sp)  - tiny two lift resort south of Tahoe city. The oldest resort at the Lake. e) Alpine Meadows - north-west of the lake on Hwy 89.  Medium-large resort. f)  Squaw Valley - little further north-west than Alpine Meadows. Very large, pricy resort. Site of the Olympics in 1960. Squaw Valley is unique in that they don't label runs or trails as other resorts do. Instead, they rate the lifts. This is ostentsibly because their terrain is so open (mostly bowls) that the concept of a "run" doesn't make sense. Squaw Valley sprawls over 5 mountains. They have a full-featured base about halfway up the mountain, complete with restraunts, bungie jumping tower, hot tubs, and ice skating rink. This was not the ice skating rink used in the Olympics - that one has since been "redeveloped". g) Northstar - north of the lake on Hwy 267.  Medium-large resort. h)  Diamond Peak (formerly Incline)- small resort right off the Lake, above Incline Village (north east side of the lake). Unique in that they have "launch pad" equiped lifts. This is a conveyer belt system that the skier/boarder steps onto, that carries him under the lift and ostensibly makes boaring the lift easier. Diamond Peak tries to cater to local families. i) Mount Rose - at the top of Hwy 431 on the north-east side of the lake.  Medium sized resort.  Hwy 431 is known as "Mt. Rose Highway" and is claimed as the highest year-round open pass in the Sierra Nevada range. j)  Kirkwood - 20 miles south of the Lake, a medium sized resort. Considered less accessible by many, but a favorite of locals. Routinely gets the most snow of any Tahoe area resort.

Also of interest: Cave Rock - a rock outcropping on the east side of the lake, through which a pair of tunnels have been bored. Hwy 50 passes through using these tunnels. Cave Rock is/was a popular climbing target for local climbers, but recently authorities have banned climbing on the rock at the behest of the Washoe Indian tribe. The Washoes regard the rock as sacred. Climbers are sueing to overturn the ban. In the meantime, a judge has ordered that all climbing gear (holds, nuts, etc) be removed from the rock. - kyle.brown@bently.com

There is no injunction against construction, in fact, construction is a BOOMING industry. There is, however, a lottery system for NEW construction, making it a long expensive involved process. Most of the regulations are set forth by the TRPA, a by-state regulatory agency. Currently real estate prices are soaring everywhere in Tahoe with an average increase of close to 100% in the last ten years. Millions of dollars are currently (and in the recent past) being spent to fix some of the problems created by altering the wetlands on the South Shore. The upper Truckee River is being restored to its original course as part of this project, which is a direct result of the Presidential Forum in 1997. The official tally of Lake Tahoe Ski Resorts is 15, although that is a bit generous IMO. And if you want eye candy, you'll find it at About Lake Tahoe. I added an "External links" section and four links to geographical, hydrological, resource management, environmental and Land Use data on Lake Tahoe for those who might want to further expand on the article, including myself. Thank you to the poster above for the trpa link. --scupper 11:21, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * This is not true at all. I live in Tahoe for a lot of the year.  the Trpa isn't letting anyone do anything.  There are lawsuits, protests and all sorts of junk.  I just fixed up this article and will continue to work on it.  Tobyk777 22:44, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Photos
Hi all. I've got several photos I took at Tahoe this February. If any are of use to this article, please let me know and I will upload them. Heavenly and Lake Tahoe photos Stitched panoramas, including from the Heavenly lookout (All are ©2005 All Rights Reserved unless uploaded and tagged by me) --ChrisRuvolo (t) 23:00, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, we really need some pictures in this article.

Vast incompleteness
I just did a HUGE OVERHALL of this article. I spent 2 hours on it. However, it is far from complete. I NEED sirous help to finish this article. I already made a good outline for it. All we have to do is fill in the sections. Tobyk777 03:26, 12 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The article has sat here for 3 weeks with many empty sections. It's clear it isn't going to fill in any time in the near future. In order not to leave a mess for our readers, I eliminated many of the empty section headers from the article. Now it is much easier to read.


 * To preserve information, here is a list of the proposed section headers. If people want to fill more information in, please gradually fill it into the article, rather than junking the article up with empty sections. Thanks!


 * 1 Specifications
 * 2 History
 * 2.1 Overview
 * 2.2 Washoe History
 * 2.3 Settlement History
 * 2.4 Maritime History
 * 2.5 Ski History
 * 2.6 Enviormental History
 * 2.7 Political Histroy
 * 3 Geography
 * 3.1 Donner Pass
 * 3.2 North Shore
 * 3.3 West Shore
 * 3.4 East Shore
 * 3.5 South Shore
 * 3.6 Communities
 * 3.6.1 South Lake Tahoe
 * 3.6.1.1 External Link
 * 3.6.2 Tahoe City
 * 3.6.3 Brockway Summit
 * 3.6.4 King's Beach
 * 3.6.5 Stateline
 * 3.6.6 Carnelian Bay
 * 3.6.7 Incline Village
 * 3.6.8 Zypher Cove
 * 3.7 Highest Mountains
 * 3.8 Bay's on the (Main) Lake
 * 3.8.1 Emerald Bay
 * 3.8.2 Agate Bay
 * 3.8.3 Carneialan Bay
 * 3.8.4 Hurricane bay
 * 3.8.5 Meeks Bay
 * 3.8.6 Crystal Bay
 * 3.9 Smaller Lakes
 * 4 Life Today
 * 4.1 Winter
 * 4.1.1 Skiing/Snowboarding
 * 4.1.2 Sledding
 * 4.1.3 Snow Tubing
 * 4.2 Summer
 * 4.2.1 Boating
 * 4.2.2 Waterskiing
 * 4.2.3 Wake Boarding
 * 4.2.4 Knee Boarding
 * 4.2.5 Innertubing
 * 4.2.6 Jet Skiing
 * 4.2.7 Parasailing
 * 4.2.8 Swimming
 * 4.2.9 Hiking
 * 4.2.10 Biking
 * 4.3 Year Round Recreation
 * 4.3.1 Lake Tahoe Hiking Trails
 * 4.3.2 Gambling
 * 5 Politics
 * 5.1 Boating Laws
 * 5.2 Homes and Construction Issues
 * 5.3 Utility Uses
 * 5.4 Transportation
 * 6 Footnotes
 * 7 See also
 * 8 External links


 * --hike395 05:32, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Recent MAJOR REDO of this article
I just saw this article yesterday, and saw how undetailed and incomplete it was. I reorganized the info into sections. A whole lot of sections as you can see. (Before the whole article was just 2 paragraphs.) I think all the sections are there. I just about quintupled the amount of info in this article too. It is still tremendouly far from complete. If you guys just fill in the sections I laid out we should be able to make this a FA. Tobyk777 04:33, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * To Tobyk777
 * South Lake Tahoe is indeed an incorporated city in California, and it is indeed the largest city on Lake Tahoe. I don't care if you live up there. It's a fact, and I can prove it. Here is the link to the city's website. http://www.cityofslt.us/ Stateline, Nevada is not even an incorporated city.
 * Sorry my friend, but I'm undoing any incorrect edits you made. --neanderthalprimadonna 00:24, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Weak language, probably incorrect
The statement "Nevada seems to have been less active, or less successful, in its conservation efforts," I believe, does not belong in this article, and, in my opinion, is not true. The Nevada State Park Services have protected a large portion of the lakeshore, most notably the long stretch between Glenbrook and Incline Village, its size is not matched by any on the California side. It is also true that the density of lakeshore communities on the California side surpasses the Nevada side, leaving the Nevada side more pristene. The above quoted statement should be either removed, corrected, or, if I am mistaken (I don't believe I am), made more diffinitive. (posted 23:58, 15 November 2005 by 216.70.146.28)


 * I would also agree that those type of statements don't belong in the article. Unless there is some definitive information to substantiate the claim, it should be revised.  There are several (maybe many) entities involved with protection of the lake and to mention one or two as being more or less active doesn't tell the entire story.  QuickDraw 16:46, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Snowfall
Whomever wrote that Tahoe is the snowiest place in the US is wrong, its not even close. The record in California goes to Alpine County. Tahoe is on the east side of the divide, and as such recieves much less snow than the west slope does. I suggest someone look up the proper facts, meanwhile I will remove the offending sentence. thanks - dave (posted 19:49, 16 February 2006, by 64.58.20.111)
 * The snowiest place in CA is not anywhere in the Sierra Nevada. It is Lassen Peak, where the measurement site at 8250 ft Lake Helen gets about 50% more snowfall on average than any location in the Sierra.  --Seattle Skier (talk) 22:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:LAKES
This article is now part of WP:LAKES. I don't have time to completely edit this article myself, so I need help. I would like to point out that while it's great to see so many people contributing and compiling vast amounts of information, much of it is not really Encyclopedia worthy. Please try to keep this in mind when you are editing. And as always, include references!!Em3rald 21:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Infobox source
I got the English infobox information from the California Environmental Resources Evaluation System. Previously, the article had only metric figures. I got numbers originally in English units to avoid rounding errors. I am almost positive that the metric figures were originally in English units. -- Kjkolb 08:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Removed copyrighted material
I had to remove the info about the mountains around the lake because it was copyed from this site http://www.tahoe.com/article/20060201/COMMUNITY07/11113035. I turned it into a list of the mountains and there height, which should be un-copyrightable. --Seano1 00:50, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Lake Tahoe Summer 2006
It's snowy at Lake Tahoe but I doubt it's the snowiest place in the US. But that's not what I thought about Lake Tahoe anyway.

I was up there about June of this year (2006) and it was great. The summer sun is hot but the breeze was fine. It was great walking down the path to the Viking Palace and my cousins went for a dip. It was also my first time to go horseback riding in my entire life (so what??? some people my age hasn't done it ever...) and it was a little nerve-racking than driving a car or something (my gosh it's a living thing!). But it was great. I'd do it all over again.

I'd love to see Lake Tahoe this winter but I'm in the tropics and just dreaming of spending time in the beach. Comments by: jonacrisologo@yahoo.com User:202.14.85.241 00:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

One of only 17 ancient lakes on Earth
This seems important, if true... The World Lakes Network says that Lake Tahoe is one of only seventeen ancient lakes on Earth. --GregU 22:26, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Song about Tahoe
There's a song by the New Zealand band Elemeno P called Fast Times in Tahoe I don't know if anyone wants to include this, but it could go somewhere

Evansam 10:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The Monster
Why is there no mention about Tahoe Tessie, the lake's alleged monster? (Mchelada 23:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC))


 * Oddly enough this came up again today when Spawn Man added it, to which I promptly removed it thinking it was vandalism. After a brief explanation, I think he has a fair point.  Before I re-add information on Tahoe Tessie (Which I personally think is just a joke, but some people swear by it.  Addl Note: I lived in the Tahoe basin for a number of years), I'm going to try to find some real info, sources and all.  If anyone else has sourced information, feel free to chime in. -- Shakata Ga Nai  Talk 08:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

please explain more fully
I found the article's coverage of deep mixing incomplete, and I suspect, incorrect.

The article says: This statement is not consistent with the normal mechanism through which temperate lakes mix.

Water, H2O, is unlike other liquids, where the density is proportional to temperature. Water is densest at about 4 degreses Celcius, 38 degrees Farhenheit. When seasonal cold weather brings the lakes's least dense surface to 4 degrees there is no longer any stratification of the lake water based on density. So, ALL the lake water would mix -- not just the top 400 metres.

As the average temperature of a temperate lake continues to cool lower than the temperature when water is at its densest, the coldest water is least dense. The surface can freeze, if the lake loses enough energy. In the Spring, rising temperatures bring the water to a short period of equal density again. And the lake mixes again. when the average temperature rises past the temperature of greatest density, the warmest waster is least dense.

Now maybe the person who contributed the material on mixing is referring to something other than this normal mechanism I described. If so, I hope they can explain themselves more fully.

Note, if the deep mixing is the normal kind I described, then the number of ddp mixing should always be an even number --fall and spring.

What is the average temperature of the lake? The water at the bottom of deep temperate lakes, like all the Greet Lakes, except Erie, remains at 4 degrees year round. So, after mixing, how long does Lake Tahoe keep a deep layer at 4 degrees?

Cheers! Geo Swan 22:40, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Future Tahoe War
Can Somebody please write about the futuristic war that will occur in 2015 between Nevada and California? This war will be regarding the water rights and Nevada will finally be pushed over the edge when CA allows Indian casinos to operate on the west side of Tahoe, thus awaking the sleeping giant of the Italian Mafia. This will be a battle for the history books. Nuclear subs will be transported into Tahoe as will battle ships. It will be the first inner continental lake battle in the history of the world. California will win and will destroy the cities of Reno and Las Vegas to terminate the competition of their Indian casinos. California will then attempt to secede from the union. California will form alliances with Baja California, Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia. America will fight but will be no match for the tech powers of Silicon Valley and Seattle. Canada will retaliate against B.C. and Mexico will accept the buyout of Baja from this new nation. the New nation will gain independence and will be named Pacifica.
 * Feel free - but as a novel, not a Wikipedia article. Cheers Geologyguy (talk) 18:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Gambling section!?
Hi! Under the "Gambling" head is a list of casinos. Why not give all the local businesses a plug? Groceries? Gas stations? Pilates? Household trash dumps? Rest homes? Maybe this list should go away? -- Saintrain (talk) 20:48, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

What about the fish?
I came to this article looking for information about the fish and other animals that live in Lake Tahoe, but under "Ecology" found only a discussion of plants around the lake. Surely the fauna deserve to be a part of this article? Jedwards01 (talk) 02:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd like to know this as well.--E tac (talk) 23:57, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Making this into a featured article
Any interest in trying to move the quality up one notch and making this a featured article? With three projects, there seems to be some interest in this article and it is notable enough to deserve being a top rated article for quality.

I guess if anyone else thinks this makes sense, then maybe a pointer to this discussion on the various project talk pages.

As a start, Lake Tahoe needs to go with the material either being dropped or worked into the article body. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I think this might have a hard time at FAC right now: the "citation needed" markers need to be cleared, and there should be at least one citation per section, if not paragraph. I agree that the information in the trivia section needs working into the article properly or removed. Before FAC, I would recommend taking the article to peer review or good article nomination. DrKay (talk) 08:49, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Highways
Can someone take a look at this section? It needs a rewrite to remove the California bias. It makes it appear that you only enter the area from California. Vegaswikian (talk) 07:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Recent film
I wonder whether one should mention the recent film "Lake Tahoe" in this article. Note that the film plays in Mexico, and that there is only passing reference to Lake Tahoe (a post card with no further repercussions). Jasy jatere (talk) 08:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Dam height
I was looking for a source to support the 6ft claim. Then I found this page which seems to say the dam is 10 ft high. Can anyone resolve this difference? Vegaswikian (talk) 20:57, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Picture of region
I think this article would benefit from a simple map of the region around the lake, showing the lake and the political divisions (states and cities) around it. That was what I was looking for when I came to this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.59.222 (talk) 16:20, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive
This article has been nominated for the Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive. If you have any comments, feel free to add them to the nomination. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:56, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

North Shore, South Shore
I was considering writing a separate article about North Shore (and possibly South Shore), but then I began to wonder how we organize geo articles... if a region has a couple distinct sub-regions, and those sub-regions have their own smaller features (towns, development, tourism, geography, history, etc), do we populate the entire hierarchy of geo articles? Would it make sense to simply mention in this article that for land use, tourism, and perhaps other purposes people distinguish between the north and south shores? I couldn't see any sign that this has been discussed but perhaps it has. Thanks, - Wikidemon (talk) 16:17, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Two photos...
Took these two photos just recently on a trip to Lake Tahoe. If anyone wants to include them in the article feel free! ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 22:37, 9 October 2010 (UTC)